Friday, January 19, 2007

Falling on Deaf ears... Or is it Deft Ears? (Confrontation with Truth?)

Falling on Deaf ears... Or is it Deft Ears?

Have you notice that it is a bit funny that when someone criticizes another, and they are told by the person criticized, "that was not very loving." The response is always something to the order of, "If I hadn't told you it would be less loving."

Now, that is true, to a point, yet the issue is not often in the criticism itself, but in the manner it is delivered. The delivery itself should be done in a loving manner... with humility fully on your sleeves.
So often one accuses another of lack of discernment, or lack of judgment... and often that may be the case... yet most over look that the most important part of discernment and "judging" (used in the reference of "seeing if something is true or not") is in how to approach the person so that they will receive the admonishment. I have at times even had someone come to admonish me and as we sat down and really talked about it, some of it was their perception of the situation that was down without having all the facts.... of course to some fact do not matter so even if presented, they will turn a deaf ear to you... and harden their hearts against you as they criticize you... this only leads to judgmentalism and condemnation. In that God gets absolutely no glory out of the situation... I have even found that sometimes the one "rebuking me" is answered by the Lord through me and is broken of a sin that is in their own life... funny that this happens to me quite a bit. Yet, most often it is something that I should hear and often must consider... even the things from harsher critics.

Part of the calling we all have as ministers of the Gospel... (Lay and professional) is the ministry of reconciliation. This means that to who disagree are brought together and the thing that split them is laid aside and their focus is on Jesus. The Bible teaches this as it says"Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

This is one of the most misused scriptures I have heard, outside of the clear admonishment NOT TO JUDGE OTHERS... (Updated: Used here to judge their salvation and condemn them or to judge others by your own self righteousness)

When we disagree even then we are to approach each other in a way that will glorify God.
The Internet is a strange and wonderful thing... it has truly sick ungodly things and thing that are truly inspired by God on High... Discernment is a really great thing to have.
So how does one get discernment?

The dictionary definition of “discern” is:
1 a : to detect with the eyes b : to detect with senses other than vision
2 : to recognize or identify as separate and distinct : DISCRIMINATE
3 : to come to know or recognize mentally intransitive verb : to see or understand the difference
Remember though this is the “worlds” definition of discern and it misses a very fine but pointed difference from the bibles definition…(which, BTW is discernment happening right here as you read.)

In the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32: 28-29 Moses says something that should lead one to a more biblical understanding of discernment. In the passage Moses is reflecting on the Egyptians lack of seeing Who God is…

They are a nation without sense,
there is no discernment in them.
If only they were wise and would understand this
and discern what their end will be!


Notice as if it is needed as part of discernment is “wisdom” or “If only they were wise”. Wisdom is the major component in discernment…

On definition I picked up about discernment is "wisdom and knowledge tempered with love". It is the seeking out to the best for the other and not just pointing out the worst.

So let’s dig a bit deeper and look where wisdom should come from.
The first time we see wisdom coming into play is in Genesis 3: 6 “When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.”

First off remember from the last post that this is all about seeking knowledge and wisdom outside of God. To do that is to make oneself a god unto himself.

Contrast that with the passage in Genesis 34: 9 where we find a wisdom that is from God.

“Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit [a] of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses”

So often we do not seek God’s wisdom and trust in our own… and this leads to the sin of judgmentalism as it lack humility to admit one is not the source of wisdom itself… and denies that it comes from God.

The other passage I think is important in discernment is Ephesians 4: 15 “Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.”

This phrase is used as an excuse to bash people all the time which really shows a great lack of understanding let alone wisdom and discernment. In the Context the purpose of “speaking the truth in love” is found in the verses above and the verses below this one profound verse.

In verse 12- 13 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. (Yes this is the job of pastors, teachers and all, yet again the context is what we are looking at… and this is the purpose of speaking the truth in love.)

The next verse is below as I said, 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

The most important thing that most who “truth in love” is that it is about unity… it is about growing and being joined together… to use this verse as a way to “tell someone off in Christ” is really a n abomination to the verses message.

One can lose the person by just "telling the truth in love" which often carries very little truth and even less love especially if the motive is not to reconcile and join together in Christ.

Discernment is a very good thing… so as you do it remember "wisdom and knowledge tempered with love" will win over more than a sharp rebuke. There is a place for sharp rebuke… and often that is between friends.

Proverbs 27:5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Is not an excuse to not love. Often one hides the love but this verse does not mean that at all… in fact it is saying it is better to rebuke in love over all if you can grasp that. We should never use a verse to allow us not to love one another… for that is one of the greatest commands of Jesus.
So with that I want to point out that some are very assumptions in their discernment... and even when they claim to hold to the authority of Scripture themselves they tend to proof text and ""demand and answer through confrontation" instead of practicing the truth of building a relationship. They are caught in the Americanized gospel of immediate gratification and miss that the fruit of the Spirit is about taking time with someone to build a relationship and to help edify them and/or reconcile them. That is the greatest error of most "discernment" ministries... they formulate to convert instead of take time to make disciples... Jesus took at least three years to build and grow relationship with His disciples... so why should we do less? remember the fruit of the Spirit? Gal 5:22-23 states them: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."
The number one is love... and in there is patience. The definition of love is in 1 Cor 13: 4 -8a "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails."
If you are approaching someone and truly doing it in love, this is true love... Patience and kindness take time... one cannot show patience with a ready made formula.
Personally I view my critics and what many are saying against the emerging church as so inaccurate that it is almost humorous... so be sure you have your facts straight as you may be thinking it falling on deaf ears, but in reality it is falling on deft ears who actually can hear what you are really saying even if you can't hear it yourself.
Blessings,
iggy




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25 comments:

Anonymous said...

The bible is full of commands telling us to judge others. We should judge the salvation of others. That way we know whether to evangelize to them or not. We are also to judge those in the church.

2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us, "Preach the Word ; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, REBUKE and encourage — with great patience and careful instruction."

"[hold] fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to REFUTE those who contradict." — Titus 1:9

"Be on your guard! If your brother sins, REBUKE him; and if he repents, forgive him." — Luke 17:3

From what I've read on your blog, you seem to put a premium on the "how" someone corrects and rebukes, ahead of the truth in what is actually said or not. The problem with that is, a rebuke never feels good and often comes across as "an attack". So if we allow our subjective (and for some people hyper-sensitive) feelings of "how" the rebuke was delivered determine for us whether we are going to evaluate the rebuke based on it's content, we will often (or even always) give ourselves an excuse to disqualify the rebuke.

iggy said...

Again,

This is the other normal response that most give about biblically restoring and admonishing someone... which seems to prove out what I wrote doesn't it?

Are you rebuking me in anger or out of love?

This is not an anti rebuking post at all... it is an "how to biblicaly rebuke someone post"

You have shown here how not to... = )

so I ask you to refer back to the original post and without reading into that I am against rebuking... understand what I am saying....


Matthew 7:1. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4. How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5. You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Romans 2: 1. You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4. Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

I think it is clear that this means we are not to "judge" one another... and that what you are saying is only half the picture and I am showing the fuller picture... You are being on the defensive to show I am wrong and have missed the point completely.

If you have really "read" what I wrote, you will see I hold truth very high...

And you are right rebuking does not always feel good. I never said it should. I am again pointing out that often we "judge" in the flesh and we need to discern in the Spirit before we make a judgment and in that judgment approach the person as the Bible teaches... to hold other better than your self (Philillians 2;3) to be clothed in compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. (Col 3:21)

Or this passage in James.3:14-18 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

I could go one with this verse also.

2 Tim 2:24 - 26 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

BTW I hope you know your "proof texting" of Titus 1:9 was bit one sided as you seemed to miss it says, "so he will be able to exhort" which is encouragement... and in that encouragement we are rebuking the other... but you were too busy to make a point to notice that i guess = )

I think you need to take to heart these words... Galatians 6:1. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

In your rebuke to me here I do not see gentleness as the rebukee... so truly this comment is falling on deft ears...

Blessings,
iggy

iggy said...

I want to add this one last thought... rebuking may not feel good to the one rebuked... but should feel worse to the one rebuking... as they are attempting to restore the other in Love to Jesus...

In this post again, I never disqualified "rebuking" but have shown how to do it according to scripture.

Blessings,
iggy

Anonymous said...

You've proven the point of the previous comment completely. First of all, the discussion of rebuking or not rebuking and how it is done is (at least in part) the topic at hand. But rather than being open to talk about differing points of view on that topic, and how yours might differ, you jump to the conclusion that:
a) You are being rebuked in that comment.
b) You disqualify the perceived rebuke because it doesn't meet your subjective standards of how a rebuke should be done.

As the previous comment said, this puts you (a sinner with a wicked heart) in full control of what rebukes you feel are in bounds or not. Nowhere does the bible set up those kinds of conditions for "filtering" incoming rebukes. Instead in Proverbs we are told that if a rebuke has some truth to it, then we should consider the rebuke as being valuable, and being even thankful to the rebuker.

You seem to have created a system in which you can pick and choose correction, no matter how much truth it may contain, simply based on the perceived "tone" that it is communicated. And who is really going to "like" the tone of a rebuke or correction? With your "I'll judge whether it's gentle enough for me to accept what you say" system, you are teaching Christians a way in which they can avoid the vast majority of correct that will come their way.

This statement of yours is biblically incorrect: "I think it is clear that this means we are not to 'judge' one another". Scripture sets up numerous ways in which we should and must correct under a variety of different scenarios. The whole concept of church discipline becomes null and void under your concept of anti-judgementalism.

I read and understand everything you wrote above, now please try to do the same with me.

iggy said...

So what do you do with the scriptures that teach against judging others. Throw them out?

You come across like you could care less about the one rebuked...
So do you think someone will listen if they think you really don't care for them?

And agian you did not catch the nuance of what I wrote and seemed to have read into it your own agenda...

I do take rebuke... (Just wondering I get the feeling you are always right and few are right around you.)

I heed rebuke... (ask my friends and pastor and wife) but not like this... form someone hiding behind "anonymous".

I can't even begin to try to talk to you about something like church discipline if you can't grasp what I am even saying now.

Blessings,
iggy

WhereInTheBible said...

Just some thoughts on the conversation above:

Iggy says: "So what do you do with the scriptures that teach against judging others. Throw them out?"

There are no scriptures that say never to judge. There are some that tell us not to judge hypocritically, and not in various other manners, but there are none that teach that Christians have a sort of Embassy Employee's "Diplomatic Immunity" in which they can not and should not be judged ever.

For example, you say that Matthew 18:20 is a clear passage saying we are not to judge, but just 5 verses earlier in that chapter it says: "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault", which requires first judging him.

Iggy says: "So do you think someone will listen if they think you really don't care for them?"

It is their DUTY to as a follower of Christ, and as a member of a body of believers where biblical order must be maintaned. Scriptural judgement and church discipline are an extenstion of the authority of Christ on earth. For someone not to follow this kind of correction is harmful to their soul and opens them to the Lord's chastisement.

iggy said...

So you are saying that it is our duty to discipline others...

What do you think the Holy Spirits job is?

Also, discipline without relationship means nothing... someone can be "discplined" as you stated and go down the street to the next church... without any true discipline taking place... Yet to be told by you friends and the ones that love you that you need ot change in order to still be a part of that community... should not be done gleefully, but with broken heartedness and in prayerful hopes of restoration...

Really we agree... but I see that you are a bit too "happy" to judge others... Which BTW, Judge does not mean the same thing in every ocntext in scriputre... so be careful you do not exhort others in judgmentalism... and to lean on God for discernment to allow the Holy SPirit and god's written word to guide you what is best to restore someone...

It is not the purpose of the bible to be a hammer, but it is to lead someone to Jesus.

Agian it is weird that you too are reading into this I do nto beleive in church discipline nor that I teach that one should not rebuke... If you read this, it is how to rebuke... from a biblical perspective... and not judging other from a man's perspective...

Be careful not to show contempt to God's show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you/them toward repentance. (Rom 1:1-4)

All I see coming out of your teaching here is the contemp spoken of... "just truthing in love" =) I hope it is not so.

Blessings,
iggy

iggy said...

WhereintheBible...

So Jesus' words really mean nothing to you... you remind me of someone else... the way you write and the way you twist scripture to fit your own theology of judgment and condemnation. I am almost sure we have ben down this road before... and be sure I have ben on to you from the beginning.... LOL! Your comprehension of what is writen is really poor.

Not turning on your profile is the same as "hiding" behind "anonymous"...

What are you afraid of?

I think it best to not let your posts go through any more until people know who you really are... I suspect I know already. Your style of writing is pretty transparent...

So if you want to keep twisting what I say to fit your agenda, do it on your own blog... I do not care to let your hate speech on my blog... (How’s that for tone?) But remember slanderer's do not inherit the Kingdom and he who hates his brother does not have the truth in him...

If you turn on your profile and it has a way to contact you privately I would be glad to continue our discussion, yet if you choose to still hide behind "anonymous" in its various forms... it will stop here...

Just keeping you accountable in your rebuking of me... I mean if I change my mind and see it your way, how can ever get a hold of you to thank you? ; )

part of rebuking is being there if the person is restored... for how can they be forgiven if you are not there to forgive?

I have ben praying for you have you ben for me?

Blessings,
iggy

iggy said...

Also,

If you do post about me, please link to the post you are referring to as it is ony fair to your readership... you have not ben doing well at that lately...

Again, do you even read what i write? Or do you assume I am wrong and not even read it?

ben strange talking to ya.

iggy

WhereInTheBible said...

Ok, I'm not sure why you are so defensive here, but let me make one last comment and then I will leave this thread. (I already know you won't post it).

What you are teaching from the bible about "judgmentalism" is not correct. You don't have take my word for it, but I would encourage you to pick up any noteworthy bible commentary such as Matthew Henry etc. and consult it for another opinion on "judging". Do this for your own sake, and for the sake of your readers whom you are responsible for teaching here. Be a Berean and test what's been said here against the bible, and not against your feelings and emotions.

iggy said...

Personally ben,

Surprise, even though you where very dishonest in whom you are, I will let it through... and to show what and how discernment really works.... ( I could not have even planned this if I tried!)



I think you miss the point and that you deny scripture where it plainly tells us not to judge another person...

We are to discern in a loving way if one is not walking in the right way, and then to attempt to restore them to Christ... by encouragement and by telling them the truth... this is to be done with humility as we too could fall into the same sin...

This is all in the bible... pretty plain and simple stuff here... bible 101 to most.

You have denied the plain teaching and corrupt it with "rationalizing" away the gentleness and humility and just plain want to revel in the "gotcha" factor... and you seem to over look forgiveness and restoration, the ministry of reconciliation as the goal... not the condemnation.

So, it seems you are the one that needs restoring as you are usurping the one who is to Judge, at the appointed time… 1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. (But you will deny this scripture also won’t you… I hope not. I pray that you find the grace and mercy of God and that He fills your heart with the Great knowledge of His Love.

So, as I said in the 2nd paragraph,

“I have at times even had someone come to admonish me and as we sat down and really talked about it, some of it was their perception of the situation that was down without having all the facts.... of course to some fact do not matter so even if presented, they will turn a deaf ear to you... and harden their hearts against you as they criticize you... this only leads to judgmentalism and condemnation. In that God gets absolutely no glory out of the situation... I have even found that sometimes the one "rebuking me" is answered by the Lord through me and is broken of a sin that is in their own life... funny that this happens to me quite a bit.”

So again, I hope and pray for you to be restored to Christ and admonish you in the Lord to appeal to His Mercy and Grace to leave your sin of judging others and denying the clear teaching of scripture and slandering your brothers and sisters in Christ… I forgive you of all of that, yet will still pray that God blesses you so much you fall and worship Him is Spirit and Truth… and rest from your own works and enter into Christ Who is the Sabbath. i ask you humbly to turn from your false gospel of hate, and turn to the Love of Christ and walk in His Peace.

Blessings,
iggy

iggy said...

To know more about WhereintheBiblebenanonymous

WhereintheBiblebenanonymous

Notice how he consistantly takes part of what I say and creates a new context to lie about me... (he calls it "rebuking")

Be sure to notic ehis lack o f links to his accusations... and when he does link how he does not comprehend at all what I am saying... almost as if on purpose...

And then most of all pray that the Religious Spirit that binds this man is broken and that he can find the Truth who is Jesus... and learn to walk in Christ...

Blessings and thank you for loving your enemies,
iggy

WhereInTheBible said...

Iggy:

Nope, I'm not Ben, and I'm not Ingrid. But I must say, Ben looks pretty upset with you.

If you care about biblical truth, you'll take my advice and seek some other counsel on what these bible passages mean, because you are teaching something false when you say "scripture plainly tells us not to judge another person". That simply is not true, and would make church discipline impossible.

I don't have a lot of exposure to the emerging church, but your unwillingness to search the scriptures and get other biblical opinions is fortifying what I've heard about the EC, which is that it's a movement that is not concerned with biblical certainties and absolute truth.

iggy said...

You are the one denying what scripture says... and twisting it to mean whatever your doctrine is...

Even if you say you are not ben... I do think you are cut from the same cloth... and I still think since ben is a liar you might still be him... also if what he said was true, why would I even post his blog here?

and you also seem not able to take rebuke and not head what the scripture is clear on...

You miss entirely that there is two types of judging in scripture, and the one you condone is the wrong one...



So you fulfill the verse in Romans 2

1. You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

I will not go tit for tat with you as it is obvious you are above reproach and are seated on the Judgment throne... I will abdicate to you as THE JUDGE of all men and will bow only to you... not!

Jesus is the Judge and will judge all at the appointed time... so beware of you doctrine of self righteousness... it will be your own undoing...

I am praying for you and hope if you are truly a person of faith, that you do the same for me.

About the church discipline... if you have not relationship with the person there is not discipline... as they can just go down the street to another church... that is YOUR STYLE of disciple... which does nothing with relationship the person has something to lose so it is disciplining them... as they can no longer hang with their friends...

Your does nothing... the person just goes on their merry way and just gets more bitter and often worse in their sin... I have seen it over and over... believe me... but I have seen restoration of families and those to Christ doing it the way I am saying... it works...

Also, why are you still hiding behind your anonymous? Even though you have a name and are registered, you are still anonymous... so why should I listen to you, you won't stand behind you words with your name... so it would seem you do not really believe them...

Since you have shown that even the pure quotes and teachings of Jesus mean nothing to you, I would say there is no reason to listen to you. Again I am praying for you...

Be at peace,
iggy

iggy said...

I did not let your last comment through as it was really not relevant... A commentary is not scripture... it is just another mans opinion on the topic... I agree the context of Romans 2 is about Jew and Gentiles but it is still appropiate for a fuller understanding of the type of judgment we are debating.


Here is the fuller context of Matthew 18:20
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

Notice the last part of the verse... "if they listen"... I am showing how to help get someone to listen... and being rebuke for it by you!... How ironic! And truly sad...

You need to read further the verses you use...

As far as Romans 2 It is about the Jews and gentiles... and the Jews were condemning the gentiles for not "living like the Jews" it was a self righteous stand they were placing on the gentiles... so it does fit... also agian, I never once said "rebuking is wrong" you seem to have read that in the post... The passage in Romans 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
11. It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"
12. So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

or

1 Corinthians 4: Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. (Before this Paul says he does not even judge himself!)

If you think, (without even knowing me) you can "judge" me and say things like I don't hold truth highly or believe in scripture, you are holding your self righteouness over me... and that is wrong...

I hope you consider that what i am saying is a balanced and appropriate way to reach those who are "caught in sin"

So if you think you are to still judge others "befroe the appropriate time" be my guest... but I will not allow someone who is anonymous to post... even if they are registered... as they are not standing behind their words with their name...

It is to hold you accountable for your words...

Peace,
iggy

iggy said...

If you at least let people know who you are... then maybe people will listen...

I am courious though do you see any common ground at all?

If you do how willing are you to bridge it, so far i am not seeing any willingness to move forward with you in other than debating which I am not willing ot go further with this "vain" argument.

peace,
iggy

WhereInTheBible said...

Matthew 18 goes on to talk about what to do if they DONT listen to you. It is wrong to imply that this passage is exclusively about how to get people to listen to you. Both conditions are talked about in the passage.

Romans 14 is talking about issues of Christian liberty or of no consequence one way or another. It is NOT talking about when your brother sins. That is not the context of Romans 14. If it were, church discipline would be impossible.

1 Cor 4:5 "He is not saying that they should suspend judging altogether. Surely not! When a pastor or teacher fails to adhere to the truth of God’s Word and in his teachings and life goes contrary to the Scriptures, the church must judge. But Paul forbids criticizing a person whose teaching and conduct are in harmony with Scripture"
--Hendrickson's New Testament commentary

Iggy says: "A commentary is not scripture... it is just another mans opinion on the topic."

Agreed. However since many of these men have spent their entire lives studying scripture, their opinion is probably worth more than yours or mine. And so it is wise to check with not none of them, not one of them, but several of these men when we encounter passages that are difficult or seem to have paradoxes.

iggy said...

Interestingly I have not said "this passage is exclusively about how to get people to listen to you." That is the point I have tried to make with you from the beginning... you read that in the post somehow... I never stated that.

Yet, to ignore that we are to rebuke in gentleness and with kindness as you are promoting is as out of balance as you are perceiving me to say...

I have been under very heavy handed people who have abuse authority and have done awful things as leaders in the churches I have attended... or have talked to people damaged by that same heavy hand and while the original person drove them out and convinced them they could never return to Christ because of their sin, I have helped them be restored and overcome their sin with truth....

So if I am leaning toward Love and humility as the base to rebuke from, it is because I see results and people restored to having great relationships with Jesus... Yet, I have also seen some so damaged by that heavy hand, that they are convinced that God will not take them back, so why change...

Really if you just read without the added thought I am removing "rebuking" out or even saying one should not "judge" as in discernment... you will see that what I am saying is very biblical and that all this was a bit silly to argue over.

I am not angry BTW, never was... confused as it seems you are missing what is being said, and more that you can't see it and have added things that are not even there...

Yet, again, I am praying as it still seems you deny the clear teaching the Judgment is God's job... and we are not to judge someone else's eternal destiny. Yet with in that we are to see if one like the man in Corinth is using Grace as an excuse to sin and bragging about it, then we should tell him in the biblical manner to leave.

Again, in today's society this does not work as he will just go to the next church and nothing will change... unless he is connected to the community and has a loss if he leaves.

Yet, notice this man is restored and accepted back in 2 Corinthians. notice that Paul is teaching them. 2 Cor
6. The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him.
7. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.
8. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him.

I think that the language is a barrier between us more than anything as "rebuke" means one thing to you and one to me... mostly the original languages has rebuke as differing words.

Rebuke can also be translated often as admonishment. Jesus rebukes the disciples in Mark 16:14 just before he commissions then to preach the Gospel... so it is not always in the manner you speak of...

Also, Paul charges Timothy with this..."1 Timothy 5:1-2 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

Notice Timothy is not to "rebuke an older man harshly"? That is what I am talking about...

About judging...
There is judging we are not to do... like in Matthew 5:21... this is "damnation" judging... yet Jesus states that even being angry is the same thing...

In the passage we covered it is clear of the type we are not to do... Matthew 7:1 is clear in the context it is "condemnation and damnation"

Strong's Ref. # 2919

Romanized krino
Pronounced kree'-no

properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish:

KJV--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.


the other as I have said is type two... as found in Luke 7:43... and the type you alluded to about judging the one that sinned against you... It is the same word, but would be more in the "your conclusion is right" or "what you are thinking is right".

Again, Romans two uses the word above yet in its context, concludes with another form of Judgment... Strong's Ref. # 2917

Romanized krima
Pronounced kree'-mah

from GSN2919; a decision (the function or the effect, for or against ["crime"]):

KJV--avenge, condemned, condemnation, damnation, + go to law, judgment.
It is clear that this is the Judgment set solely for God alone.

Again, the usage in Matthew 7:1 may be the same word but the context is showing a difference...

an English example would be something like "that was bad" it can mean "it was not a good thing or wrong" or it could mean " it was good" when used in slang.

That is not the best example... but another would be the word "spank" as in spanking a child... I might mean a swat on the butt... really no harm and not too hard... another might mean it to be using a belt of other object and leaving marks on the body... but same word is "spank".

There is a differing degree in the usage in the context.

Just because Jesus said, to judge something as right or wrong, still does not give us the right to judge the person and their eternal destiny. We may discern, which is a much better word choice in looking if a person has done us wrong and trying to get them to see it.

I hope you can come to see in some way what I am really saying...

Peace,
iggy

iggy said...

WhereintheBible,

I woudl like to appologize for thinking you were ben...

ben is a loyal reader and I noticed the times in my stats seem to correspond with his reading time and your comment time... they were right next to each other...

So, becuase I was wrong in thinking you were ben, I was being defensive... as I pointed out (in error) with the link with your name to ben's website...

I do want to clear this up as ben hiself posted and said it was not him... and in reading I think whereinthebible is at least a bit more logical in his assertions. Yet it seems you (whereintheBible) still fall into the error of reading into the post some presumptions as to what I do teach...

So again, being that you are not ben, I hope to open the door a bit wider to our discussion as I am willing ot converse more on this topic with someone who at least will listen and talk... my assumption that of you being ben is that no matter what I said, I was wrong... and even if I was right it would be twisted to be wrong... as the links show.. I will not change the links or post and leave them as is as I am willing to admit my mistakes... and in a sense am taking rebuke from ben for your sake...

A little side note to ben... I have never claimed to be "open minded" that again is you assumption of me. I really think you need to read the Scot McKnight article in Christianity Today about the 5 streams and keep in mind that I may dip from the stream of one type of "emerging thought" and then from another, but I am not as you represent me on your blog... and anyone can read me to see that is true. If you feel this is a lie, then be a bigger man and link directly to your accusations... Yet I do think I have given you enough answers and do not think you able to see that I am not as you say.

I do thank you for letting me know that whereintheBible and you are not the same person.

I never thought that whereinthe bible was Ingrid... BTW... that was never stated to Whereinthebible....but to another "anonymous" who visited from about 12 miles from the headquarters of WCVY and it seemed it was possibly her as it read as if it was... again, I am only human and do make mistakes and I never said for abslute certain it was her.

I hope that this clears the path a bit for Whereinthebible and me to have a more open discussion.

Blessings,
iggy

WhereInTheBible said...

Iggy said: "Really if you just read ... you will see that what I am saying is very biblical and that all this was a bit silly to argue over."

The reason that it appears to you that I am missing something in what you are saying, is because from my standpoint you appear to be making contradictory statements. For example, here are some statements that you have made in this thread that can not be supported by the bible, and there is nothing in the rest of what you said that can contextualize these statements into being biblical:

Iggy: "This is one of the most misused scriptures I have heard, outside of the clear admonishment NOT TO JUDGE OTHERS... (Updated: Used here to judge their salvation and condemn them or to judge others by your own self righteousness)"

I have no problem agreeing with the "condemning" aspect of what you said, however, your rejection of "judging their salvation" is not biblical. If we practiced that, we would never know who to evangelize to, who to baptize, who we are permitted to marry, etc. These things often go beyond a secretive discernment in which we don't share our thoughts with the person we are judging; on the contrary they may require us to say "I'm sorry I can't baptize you, marry you, etc. because I do not see fruit in your life that is consistent with a true believer". Again, more than just discernment.

More statements that you make above:

Iggy: "I think it is clear that this means we are not to "judge" one another"

Iggy: "So you are saying that it is our duty to discipline others... What do you think the Holy Spirits job is?"

That communicates to me that you believe disciplining Christians is exclusively the HS's job. This is contrary to the bible's teaching on correcting, rebuking, and church discpline.

Iggy: "Also, discipline without relationship means nothing..."

The bible does not teach that the right to judge/correct/rebuke must be earned through relationship building. Example: Someone comes to your church for 2 months, commits some heinous sin that threatens the body. The elders MUST step in and judge the man, perhaps even expel him, even though they have no relationship with him.

Iggy: "I hope and pray for you to be restored to Christ and admonish you in the Lord to appeal to His Mercy and Grace to leave your sin of judging others..."

Here you speak of judging others as a sin.

So if it seems like I'm not paying much attention to the other details that you speak of - related to gentleness and relationships, it's because Im not convinced that you even believe that judging is ever right. The statements of yours that I've just cited appear to suggest that you believe otherwise.

So, my question to you is, is there room in your view of these matters for passages like these:

"... encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach" (Titus 1:9-11).

"Expel the wicked man from among you" (1 Cor. 5:9-13).

The following link is some additional reading for anyone who is interested. Note: I am not associated with this ministry or website at all:
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue94.htm

What I would like to see more from Iggy in the future, is when he talks against people like Ingrid, Paul Proctor, etc., rather than saying "they are hateful, they are judgemental", Iggy should instead say: "Their judgement in that situation was incorrect because scripture says..." (and then make your case). If in fact their judgement is correct in a given circumastance, it can be accurately said that their warnings were loving to the sheep that could be deceived by the thing that they are warning against. That would be the opposite of hate.

iggy said...

Thanks for building a relationship with me...(grin)


I think that you are still not reading what I am saying... and of course if a "pedophile" came to your church and started his sin against children in the church it is the responsibility to cast him out... again though there is still the issue of no real discipline happening as he (if not arrested and made to pay for his crime) can go to the next church and do the same thing... as most churches do not work together (though many do) and many hold each other is high suspect as "not holding to the truth".

Again, I am not sure which "statements" you are referring to as not biblical.. sorry I am trying to see it your way... and to tell you the truth I did years ago and it seems very far removed from those days... so bear with me... though I think you may notice I think the same about you as not holding to the "fullness" of the biblical view. I don't mean this in a derogatory or mean spirited towards you... like I said I am looking at common ground to see where we are not agreeing. I fully admit I can be dense at times... grin.

The second part was written when I was mistaken about who you were... so please accept my apology... again, I hope to build a bridge...

It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict one of sin... not ours... he can use us to do it... but it must be by the Holy Spirit we rebuke or correct anyone... and not in our own strength and knowledge... as we are as deserving of death for our sin as the person being rebuked...

John 16: 7-11 states this...

But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;
in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.


Again, we are to be humble as it is the Holy Spirit doing the work through us... if not it is rebuking the other in the flesh and that is not of God but by this worlds wisdom.

As far as you last paragraph... remember this is a blog with over 3 years of post... 401 with the last one. In that it has been a few years and I hope you understand that I have chosen to live out my "process" and much of my inner workings fully in public... This is not a fun thing, but it is what I believe God called me to do... I may often sound very confident in what I write, but believe me, it is not out of arrogance, but out of heartbrokenness and lessons hard learned. i hope even if you do not agree, you appreciate my openess.

Again, I hope you accept my apology and we can move on to a more edifying exchange...

Blessings,
iggy

Bruce said...

Hey Iggy,

I didn't see any other way to contact you ............my new site domain address is www.worldofbruce.com

thanks
Bruce

You can delete this........

WhereInTheBible said...

Iggy:

I think we are perhaps at an impasse. You feel that you are providing balance by giving differing statements, whereas I am reading your differing statements as a contradictions. I've provided some examples in my last comment of statements that you made in this thread which appear to be a denial of a Christian's obligation to judge. If I own an amphibious car, I can't describe it as a car sometimes, and a boat other times, without explaining how those things are not contradictory. As I noted, some of your statements about "not judging" appear to be a denial of judging altogether, and not a harmonization of some sort.

As far as the Holy Spirit being the one who does the convicting; I agree with that much. However, the Holy Spirit often uses people to *point out* error in us, which leads to the HS's conviction. An example of this is the prophet Nathan who confronted King David. Paul also confronted Peter face to face in public, in the book of Acts. Paul names-names in 1 Timothy - calling out "Hymenaeus and Alexander".

You've asked for my forgiveness, but I've never been angry or taken anything personal. I've viewed my participation here more along the lines of one of those point/counter point TV shows like "meet the press", etc. where we are presenting differing viewpoints to be talked about, with nothing being taken personal. That's what's nice about blogs, and I don't think it has to be a matter of one person rebuking another in this format. Unfortunately, I belong to a denomination that is heavily discriminated against on blogs that are similar to yours, and so I've found it best to stay annonymous in these discussions so as to keep the focus off of my background, and onto the topic at hand.

I am sympathetic of the heavy-handed hyper-judgmentalism that you speak of, in which people are singled-out by nit-picky Christians who like to confront everything and anything. I was reluctant to come out and say that, as I would have prefered to see you first acknowledge that judging is vital under biblically defined circumstances. I still do not feel that you've done this, but I hope that what I've said will be of some value. So at this point, I think I'm going to ride off into the sunset, but I wish you well and pray that we may both find the right balance on this difficult topic.

iggy said...

WhereintheBible,

Mostly I see it is in the semantics we are in disagreement.

I prefer discernment as it does not carry the "condemnation" in it...

Mostly I hope you realize I was responding to you as I thought you were misrepresenting yourself dishonestly as someone else and in that I know I was not being fair to you... I hope you understand why I was a little “defensive”. (As you recall the link to who I thought you were).

I too am part of a denomination that is misrepresented... and I am often misquoted and having my words twisted... so I understand completely your reluctance.

the thing is I do not see it as contractor if we both agree that it is the condemnation... and the judging of ones eternal destination that is wrong... to judge as in discernment and assessment is I see we hold in common... again I try to not use certain words to reach those that have been hurt as i have in the past. One can not hear if they already have a definition that is being used as a hammer... (Obedience is such a word... I believe one must be obedient yet what most teach is not Biblical obedience, but is works righteousness as the focus in not on “God's works in and thorough us”, but our works to please God... but that is for another time).

I am a bit embarrassed as to how I responded to you… I hope that you know you are welcome to comment any time. I am leaving the posts as is as I do see it good (not necessarily on my end) in how to work things out… and I do really appreciate you patience with me.


Blessings,
iggy

WhereInTheBible said...

Iggy:

My being annonymous caused the problem, so it is I that owes the apology related to the thing you said.