~ emerging thought in Montana ~

I want to clear something up.

Some on the blogosphere are referring to me as “Pastor” Carlos Shelton. I do pastor/teach at my church and am on the leadership team. I have not been given the title “Pastor” though I have pastored while doing my church plant and also have been a Youth Pastor.

I do not take the title of office as it is being applied to me because it has not officially been given to me yet.

Pastoring is a gift where one gently loves and guides the people in the congregation. Many people who are not even in the “leadership” role can have the gift of pastor and also love and guide and others. Ephesians 4: 11-13 states:

11. It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12. to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13. until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Notice the phrase "It was he who gave"? God gave these people as a gift and gifted them so do this work and service for the Body of Christ. It is not a "title of authority" though most denominations do use it that way.

I am a Pastor, but again do not take that as a title of office, but as a gift. To apply it to me as a title as Ingrid and Pastorboy do is not accurate.

I am ordained, but because some thought the organization I was ordained through was not “legit” to their specification I rarely mention it anymore. But, since I am not officially been instated by the Vineyard Denomination as a “Pastor” in title, I hope that those referring to me as such will stop as it misrepresents me and what I do.

Thanks,

I have been in a discussion with someone on Twitter discussing 2 Cor 4:4 and that it seemed inconsistent with Paul's theology to state this commonly quoted verse.

For some reason that verse had always bothered me as I saw it did not fit with other verses that Paul wrote.

Like.

Romans 1: 25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Notice it is God doing the deluding? Not Satan. Though I do think Satan plays a part in the turning from the knowledge of God, and adding to the “depraved mind”.

I also noted Paul stating things like:

Romans 3: 30. “since there is only one God,” I wondered why then Paul referred to Satan as the “god of this world”… it seemed that it was a bit of an exaggeration at best! LOL!

But the verses that made me wonder the most was in 1 Cor 8: 4. So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6. yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

If Paul was stating that there is only One God over and over here… and stating that “even if there are so-called gods”, then making a slighted reference to all the many “gods” and “lords” (possibly a reference to Caesar worship?) I just could not see him referring to Satan as a god, even in small letters. It seemed out of character for Paul… though he may at times go to extreme rhetoric as in the “height, width, depth of God’s love”…

Anyway I left it alone for quite a few years, but it still bothered me. Then about a year ago (maybe 3) I was reading Irenaeus and found that he was correcting how this passage should be read. Sorry for all the upcoming cut an past

Against Heresies
Chapter VII.—Reply to an objection founded on the words of St. Paul (2 Cor. iv. 4). St. Paul occasionally uses words not in their grammatical sequence.
1. As to their affirming that Paul said plainly in the Second [Epistle] to the Corinthians, “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not,”3358 and maintaining that there is indeed one god of this world, but another who is beyond all principality, and beginning, and power, we are not to blame if they, who give out that they do themselves know mysteries beyond God, know not how to read Paul. For if any one read the passage thus—according to Paul’s custom, as I show elsewhere, and by many examples, that he uses transposition of words—“In whom God,” then pointing it off, and making a slight interval, and at the same time read also the rest [of the sentence] in one [clause], “hath blinded the minds of them of this world that believe not,” he shall find out the true [sense]; that it is contained in the expression, “God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world.” And this is shown by means of the little interval [between the clause]. For Paul does not say, “the God of this world,” as if recognising any other beyond Him; but he confessed God as indeed God. And he says, “the unbelievers of this world,” because they shall not inherit the future age of incorruption. I shall show from Paul himself, how it is that God has blinded the minds of them that believe not, in the course of this work, that we may not just at present distract our mind from the matter in hand, [by wandering] at large.

2. From many other instances also, we may discover that the apostle frequently uses a transposed order in his sentences, due to the rapidity of his discourses, and the impetus of the Spirit which is in him. An example occurs in the [Epistle] to the Galatians, where he expresses himself as follows:
“Wherefore then the law of works?3359 It was added, until the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a Mediator.”3360 For the order of the words runs thus: “Wherefore then the law of works? Ordained by angels in the hand of a Mediator, it was added until the seed should come to whom the promise was made,”— man thus asking the question, and the Spirit making answer. And again, in the Second to the Thessalonians, speaking of Antichrist, he says, “And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus Christ3361 shall slay with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy him3362 with the presence of his coming; [even him] whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders.”3363 Now in these [sentences] the order of the words is this: “And then shall be revealed that wicked, whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the presence of His coming.”
For he does not mean that the coming of the Lord is after the working of Satan; but the coming of the wicked one, whom we also call Antichrist. If, then, one does not attend to the [proper] reading [of the passage], and if he do not exhibit the intervals of breathing as they occur, there shall be not only incongruities, but also, when reading, he will utter blasphemy, as if the advent of the Lord could take place according to the working of Satan. So therefore, in such passages, the hyperbaton must be exhibited by the reading, and the apostle’s meaning following on, preserved; and thus we do not read in that passage, “the god of this world,” but, “God,” whom we do truly call God; and we hear [it declared of] the unbelieving and the blinded of this world, that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come.


It really made me start thinking again on all this…

I started to look at the verse again so see what it might really be saying.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Who veiled the gospel? It is our own unbelief. How is the veil removed, by believing in Jesus. We learned all this in 2 Cor 3
The Gospel is veiled to those who are perishing.

I see it should read:

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The God Eternal has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

It then flows so that we now (again as we learned in 2 Cor 3: 16. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.)

Verse 5. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

It is God who blinds the unbeliever so that they cannot see Christ. They can see Christ when God reveals Jesus to them as Paul teaches in 1 Cor 1: 18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Now here is my theory, call it conspiracy if you will. LOL!

Most of us are from the Protestant/reformed view. We spend our time in Calvin and Augustine and other 16th century guys who are well worth the read. I think many manuscripts are mostly from Alexandria which took a Platonist/ Gnostic view point of scripture. Somewhere I think we tossed the baby out with the bathwater in our zeal to attack the Roman Catholic Church. I had not read Irenaeus and when I did it was in my search to follow the disciples of John the Apostle. You might know Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of Ignatius and. So the linage is pretty straight forward as to what was taught from John. I see that maybe we just took to our own traditions instead of looking at our historians of past. Note many are pretty far out there, yet, some that we can see come from apostolic line of teaching, should be considered in their interpretations.


iggy

God’s Grace: What is it?

Proverbs 3:34. He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.

Joke:

A man died and went before the pearly gates and of course there was Peter there. Peter greeted the man and began to explain that things are on a point system in order to get in.
The man stated “Great! This will be easy!” and then stated “I never cheated on my wife once…”
Peter stated, “That’s great! 3 points!, anything else”
The man proudly stated, “I never cheated on my taxes, yep paid every cent.”
“Wow!” said Peter, “That is another 2 points!”
Now this went on for about an hour until Peter said, “You have 35 points, anything else?”
“I have nothing more…” said the man.
The man began to realize his situation and trembling said, “It looks like the only way I will ever get in, is by the Grace of God…”
With that the Gates of Heaven swung open wide… and Peter announced loudly, “Enter in!”
Just to warn you we will be looking at a lot of verses today.

Grace the unmerited favor of God.
• This is the most used definition
• Pastor Allen’s definition brings out a fuller understanding of the definition being the way God feels about you… it is God’s emotion of compassionate love toward you.
• I still see that there is even a bigger understanding Grace as I see it as the very substance that holds all things together.

Our God is a Gracious God.

• The character of God is that of compassion. Exodus 33: 18-20. Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory." 19. And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20. But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
• God’s Character is that of Goodness
• God created all things out His goodness
• Genesis God speaks of creation that “it is good” for it came from Him.

Now fast forward to the New Testament.

• John 1:1-3. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. He was with God in the beginning. 3. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

• John 1:14. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

• Galatians 5: 22-23. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23. gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
God produces His fruit in us. We do not produce any “good” fruit.

• I touched on this a bit last time I talked, in Matthew 7:15-19. "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17. Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

• If one thinks that they can be good we must remember Jesus’ own words in Mark 10:18 "No one is good--except God alone.”

• To think any goodness comes from the human heart or human effort actually works against God’s grace.

God’s Grace is not by Human works

• The most famous verse of course is Ephesians 2:8-9 8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9. not by works, so that no one can boast.

• Romans 11:6 if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

In order to have Grace one must have Jesus

• John 1:14. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

• Again Jesus was the “Let there be…” those very first words of God that started the Great Conversation. It is through Jesus all things were created and all things were good… for all things passed through Jesus and passed through Grace and Truth that were in Him.
Some teach of different “graces”

• Some teach that there is more than one grace; I see this as missing that there is one and that is the same grace that was in Christ who was in the Father before all creation.

• This Grace is the very plan of God of salvation, called “the election” that was purposed in Jesus by the Father even before creation.

• Ephesians 1:4-6 4. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5. he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6. to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Law versus Grace

Illustration of Law…

• The law is just: When I was in grade school they still spanked you when you broke the rules. One of the rules of the Southside School I attended was “Do not throw snowballs. Now that is a bit tough for a kid in the first place. One day after a nice snow fall, I was sitting on the swing in the play ground at recess. I suddenly felt a biff on the back of the neck and my neck became cold and wet. I told Tommy to stop as we are not supposed to throw snowballs… and biff he threw another one. Now once is enough, twice is a fight, but I was still under restraint of the Law… so I appealed to it again and biff… third time is a war! I picked up snow and packed it good and threw it… I don’t remember if it hit him or not, but I do remember the voice of the attendant yelling something about us being in a huge amount of trouble. I tried to explain I was only defending myself yet we both still were brought before the board of education… or rather the boards of education.
One was called Big Bertha it was the shorter of the two, the other was the Red Baron. These boards were paddles about 10 inches long and the other about 14 inches long… both had aerodynamic holes drilled in them for more precision. Now the Red Baron got its name of course because when it was used the person was bearing red when it was all done.

I appealed my case of self defense again, and the principal had his principles so he did not listen. I do remember that as I dropped my draws and Tommy did also, He received the Big Bertha… and I counted 1 then 2 swats… then it was my turn and of course I received the Red Baron… and I counted, 1 then 2 then to my surprise… 3 swats! Man… how was that fair?

• The Law is just and it has no mercy. It is what it is and one under must suffer the consequences even if the excuse for breaking it is a really good one like self defense from a snowball assault.

• James 2: 10. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

• Romans 9: 30-33 talks of those under the law stumbled over its purpose and those who did not even seek God were found by God by His grace. 30. What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31. but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33. As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." That stumbling Stone is Jesus.

• The Law was a “school master” that leads us to Jesus. (Galatians 3:24) In fact it is actually the slave that was in charge of the child to help them learn the essentials of life… after the child had matured there was no need for the slave to continue his teachings. This is true of the Law it is to lead us to Jesus and in that we are mature… though this is the beginning of a New Life (in capitals)

It is by Grace through faith we are saved.

• After placing one’s faith in Jesus we are no longer under the Law but under
Grace.
• This grace is all in Jesus and is Jesus just as Jesus is literally truth incarnate Jesus being filled with Grace and Truth embodied both..
• Jesus is also in “very nature” God. (Philippians 2: 6)
All that is, is of Christ, through Christ and for Christ…
• The eternal plan we that we would be “in Christ”
• The creation was all through Christ
• And we were created to be God’s image and that is for Christ. As we now are being transformed into His image.

There are many misconceptions our there about God’s grace.

• Some think and I was taught that Grace saved us, yet we must maintain our salvation… Yet, Paul states that is not true in Galatians. Galatians 3: 3. Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
• Some teach that we can add to our own righteousness yet that negates grace as we are giving the righteousness of Jesus in exchange for our own.
• Some teach that grace is like a bar of soap and that we only use it when we sin…
These are all lies.
• Grace is what saves us and keeps us… it sustains us and transforms us. I personally believe that God maintains our salvation and we cannot add to it by anything we do.
• Some are in bondage to the lies that are taught and this is why Jesus came to set those in captive free.
• If you are under this type of teaching (which is not happening here) I recommend getting out from under it.

Grace is not a license to sin.

• The biggest fear that some have of the freedom that come from grace is that they see it as a license to sin
• Some even took Paul’s words that stated that where sin was, Grace abound even more as a mandate to sin more!
• Paul stated that was not the intention at all of grace…

Grace is to set us free to walk in the righteousness of Christ Jesus

• Romans 5, 6, 7 all emphasize that we died to sin.
• Romans 6:9 states this: For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
• Since He cannot die again and we are in Christ… we will not die again also.

The Promise of the Resurrection.

• This is the promise of Grace… Romans 5:10. For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
• We are saved from death to experience new Life in Christ… this is the Life of the same resurrection of Jesus.
• This resurrection is the power to transform Lives.


Grace is meant to give away

• As we have been forgiven… which is by grace… we also are to forgive by grace.
• Colossians 3:13 -14. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Now this may sound funny to some of you… but I forgive you. I forgive you of all your sins in the Name of Jesus. Now all I ask is that you rise in the Newness of Life and walk in the very Life of Christ Jesus.
You were once dead because of your sins, but now you are reconciled to God. In that your sins died with Jesus on the Cross… and I close with this passage. I hope that you actually pray this passage of scripture as I read it.

2 Corinthians 5: 14-21

For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteous of God.

More on the so called “truth war”…


My issue is that John MacArthur seems to miss that Jesus IS the Truth and He is not at war but has passed on the ministry of reconciliation to us... with that we are to contend for the faith... contend is to strive for...

JM teaches we are to "defend" the truth... and if Jesus is truth how can any mere man defend Jesus? Also, it states nowhere in scripture to "defend" truth... it says we are to contend for the faith.. (I have recently written on this here)

The difference between defend and contend is this...

A champion boxer defends his title... but a contender strives to win the title but has yet to attain it.

We are to defend the Gospel. but that defense is not about bashing people with "truth" rather, it is about being ready to give an answer to the hope (Jesus) that is within us. And we are to do this with humility and gentleness and not be like the world whose tool is of Satan called "war".

God is not the father of war. Satan is, for he is the destroyer... God is the Creator... to declare war is to align oneself on the side of Satan.

Now, before one quotes a passage about God telling the Hebrews to "kill them all" it was because God promised to curse those who curse them and bless those who blessed them... and on occasion a pagan people who did no know God, were blessed by Him... as in the case of Jonah.

God is not about war... he is the God of Peace... of Love and reconciliation... to attach a satanic thing as war is an abomination.

God is our defender and Truth needs no defending as it is more powerful than lies just as darkness flees the Light.

I just cannot see how one can justify war and declare it in God's name... God fulfills His promises and all the wars in he OT are about keeping the promise to Abraham so that God’s grace will be known to all men.

Be Blessed,
iggy

I find it interesting that people teach that we are to defend truth... or defend The Truth. Did you know there is not one verse that states that or teaches that?

Here is a short list of who and what we are to defend:

Now, there is much more and I challenge one to do a study on "defending".

Still not one verse that states to defend the truth... and some base their whole ministry on this idea.

Now.. we are to defend the Gospel... and the Gospel is truth. Now that is as close as one can get to this idea. Yet, the Gospel is this... for there is only One Gospel that was in Christ and taught by Christ and handed down to the Apostles... Jesus tells us this Gospel in Matthew 24:14

"...gospel of the kingdom..." it is not just about the death burial and resurrection though that is a major part of it... it is and was always and will always be about God's Kingdom.

Some teach that it is yet to come... but here in Matthew and elsewhere Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom and no other Gospel.

How sad that some seek to defend Truth... For if they realized that Jesus is The Truth and God's Word does not return void to Him, they would see that Truth defends itself! It does not need man to defend it... or rather let me state it this way... Jesus does not need man to defend Him! He is our defender.

Now there is a verse that is used as a hammer to batter other brother and sisters in Christ with. And the sad thing is it is one of the most powerful verses in the bible... in it is a warning and an eternal truth that those who teach man must defend Truth miss...

Jude 1: 3-5

"Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. "

Now the focus is on "I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints."

Many read this without a thought that "contend" means to defend... rather it means to strive for... A quick look at the verses that use contend will show this true.

Now, in boxing a contender is not the champion who holds the title... it is the one who is striving toward the goal to win the title. What some have done with this verse is turn the contender into the defender and that is wrong.

We are to earnestly contend for the faith. We are to strive and seek after it. Paul used the idea of running the race... that we are to persevere and endure whatever comes at us and to strive toward the goal which is Jesus and His great salvation.

I see that this basic misunderstanding has caused much division out there. In our futile attempt to defend Truth, we miss that Jesus being truth and by His truth defends us as we trust Him at His word. To take that from Jesus is stating that we really do not trust Jesus defence of us or Himself and that we can do it better than Jesus can. It is arrogance to thing we can defend Truth better than God Himself...

We are to stand on the truth... as Moses was instructed "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock." (Exodus 33:21) we also are to stand on the Rock which is Jesus Christ and not depend on our own works to defend that Rock... that Rock is our defense!

It is by Grace we can even stand... Romans 5:1-2

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God."

As we stand in His grace by faith we are earnestly contending for the faith.

We may debate and instruct as to God's word... we may rebuke and be rebuked by God's word and fall into conviction of the Holy Spirit... yet this is not defending... if one turns it into that it is no longer in love as it is then confrontation in the sense that one person is greater than the other. We are to esteem others greater than ourselves... and in love contend for the faith and while we do that encourage others to contend with us.

Now if someone is tries to state I am against truth... you really need to re-read this post again... I think that if I place my trust in Jesus who is Truth incarnate... that I place a high value on truth.

Be Blessed,

iggy

Walking through Romans: Romans 9:13 - 33 part 12

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 9:15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 9:16 So then, it does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 9:17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh: “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may demonstrate my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 9:18 So then, God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden.
9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?” 9:20 But who indeed are you – a mere human being – to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 9:21 Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use? 9:22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 9:23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory – 9:24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 9:25 As he also says in Hosea:
“I will call those who were not my people, ‘My people,’ and I will call her who was unloved, ‘My beloved.’”
9:26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
9:27 And Isaiah cries out on behalf of Israel, “Though the number of the children of Israel are as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved, 9:28 for the Lord will execute his sentence on the earth completely and quickly.” 9:29 Just as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of armies had not left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
and we would have resembled Gomorrah.”

9:30 What shall we say then? – that the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness obtained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith, 9:31 but Israel even though pursuing a law of righteousness did not attain it. 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 9:33 just as it is written,
“Look, I am laying in Zion a stone that will cause people to stumble
and a rock that will make them fall,
yet the one who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is God unjust by His Mercy and Compassion and who He gives grace to? Certainly on the surface it would see that it is unfair. Why would some, who have strived to show they are followers of God, not be chosen in the end? Why would some be chosen as if by random and without any rhyme or reason? We are left with the feeling that we have a capricious God who really does not care for righteousness nor dose He care for man’s worship. He will just do as He pleases, and if He be a man, would be selfish in His doing so if not considered mad.

Yet, this is not the case as if God chose us on our own merit, or if somehow we gained favor from Him in something we did, we would still need to address that them men are righteous on their own without God. For you see God is Right and is The Just. If man could satisfy God’s required perfect holiness, then they would be gods themselves and in no need of God.

Now, Paul has already stated that all have sinned, (Roman 3:23) and that no one is righteous, (Romans 3:10) and so has set the foundation of this revelation in that we are dead in our sins… and that there was only One who was Just, and the Justifier… God through Jesus Christ.

Now many miss that Mercy is how God shows His power as God speaks of this as He spoke to Moses and Paul brings it up now. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” We also find God chooses to show His power as He can soften the heart of some and harden the heart of others. Yet, it seems that as we look back in Romans 1 we see that this hardening is that man had the knowledge of God but forsook it.

“For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened.” (Romans 1:21)

Man still chooses the direction of his heart but it is God who either draws man to himself or hardens man’s heart and they are turned over to the futility of their thoughts and vile worship of created things.


It is not that God response to man’s heart in its own turning but that if one turns away they are hardened… and all men have turned away. Yet, by grace God has mercy and softens some men’s heart… and in that moment grace breaks down the barrier and the heart of man turns once again to God.
Man can ask why God made him this way… yet still many peoples theology teaches that God made some people bad and some to be saved by Grace. The truth is in Genesis where man as part of creation was declared “Good” (Genesis 1: 31)

So man originally made good turned away as in that his heart was hardened. God did not make any man “evil” or any man to be tossed into the fire. He did not create some to just partake in wrath. Man was made and was declared good, then sinned and then was condemned to receive the wages of sin… which is death.

In that we are condemned to death.

Now from a purely human perspective God seems to have made some to be vessels of wrath and some to be vessels of destruction. And because of “sin” all men are vessels of destruction. God did choose the Jews as if by random to display His mercy and grace. They did nothing to be chosen though that seemed to be lost to some as they took God’s favor as earned because they kept God’s law. Now, God did bless them for keeping the Law, yet it was not for their salvation that the Law was given as the Law gave no provisions for salvation or forgiveness of sins. Sacrifice was needed for forgiveness of sins, yet all men still went to the grave… for all men still died even if forgiven by the blood of bulls and goats. Now, it was for forgiveness that the blood of bulls and goats was demanded, yet, that blood never nor could take away the sins of a person… only cover, yet, we find Jesus’ Blood takes away the sins of a person.

Hebrews 9: 11-14
“When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!”

Jesus did more than atone for our sins He took them away as the prophet John the Baptist stated in John "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29).


Hebrews 10: 2-12 also shows more that the sins are taken away not just covered.

“If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.
Then I said, `Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"
First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.”

God’s provision for sin is complete and for all. For by this grace that is Jesus who was sent to take away sin, was born also as a man, a vessel of wrath, learned obedience even unto death and so overcame death. We must now realize that we also must be born of heaven to live. It is in this new birth as we come to believe and receive Jesus, become the children of God… the same children of the Faith of Abraham. It is in this that Jesus is our Eternal Father, yet also being the first fruit of the New Creation, is our brother.

Now, God is willing to display His wrath on man, yet even more He wants to show His compassion. God chooses to endure those so deserving of wrath with patience… remember it is all of us that are deserving of His wrath…

In this patience, we find that there are those who are vessels of mercy. These vessels of mercy have not earned their title. In fact many thought that they were these vessels and called the “others” who they deemed not chosen as the vessels of wrath as dogs or even less than human. Many of the Jews believed that they were in God’s favor simply because of their birthright of being dependences of Abraham, yet Paul, sadly states that “not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel” (Romans 9:6) Yet, now we find the punch line… as some seem to twist this chapter to mean that God created some for wrath and some for destruction and in that negate the truth of creation. Men are created to be the image of the Living God. Man was created “good” and fell from this “goodness” and forsook it for a lie. To state that some were created for the purpose of destruction cuts across man being created to be the Image Bearer. Now, this punch line is that the very ones that were deemed dogs and vessels or wrath, are now as the Prophet Hosea states: “I will call those who were not my people, ‘My people,’ and I will call her who was unloved,’ My beloved. (Romans 9:25)

Now, one might ask if then the Children of Israel are all lost if God has now turned to such favor on the Gentiles… Yet, Paul states there is a remnant.

Now, here I see that to state that God made some to be tossed into the fire is a lie. God desired none should perish… (2 Peter 3: 9). Yet sadly there are some that will refuse to exchange the lie for truth.

God is merciful. He is Just. Those that were given the Law missed the purpose of the Law which was to reveal their sin and make them cry out to God for salvation. Instead they took the Law as a way to salvation. They sought to gain God’s favor by works and not by faith. They stumbled over the “Stumbling Stone” who we find out is Jesus. This Rock was given so that we would ALL fall and in that put our faith in this Rock and not perish or be put to shame.

The punch line is that by Jesus God flipped the very thought that some are created for destruction and some for wrath on it’s head. God planned before creation that in Christ Jesus all would have a way of salvation. Yet, again, sadly though all will hear the Calling, not all will be chosen as they will not believe on Christ or receive the Life of Christ that gives all men salvation. Some will be lost and instead of be lifted up, will stumble but all will have to face the “Rock” that is Jesus Christ.

Be Blessed,
iggy

Romans 9
1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

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This will be interesting as I do not see that I can cover this chapter all in one swoop. In fact this chapter is so widely misunderstood that it may take the reader a bit to go over this so see my perspective. I will only be building on the theme that was coming out of Chapter 8 in how we are comforted by the Love of God and that we are to live life by the Spirit. It is God Who justifies and who can condemn you then?

(Romans 9: 1-6)That not all that is called Israel is “Israel”, gave Paul great sorrow as he saw the people of his own bloodline not seeing that it was “by the Spirit” we live and that it is God who justifies. In this he models Jesus in the willingness to lay down his own life so that his brothers would be spared. For it was through this chosen people that God gave us the Messiah Himself.

(Verses 7- 9) It would seem that Paul knew that some would say then that God failed. That since the natural born Jew is not able to fulfill all that was required even with all that God had given to and through them. Yet, again it is not of the natural birth one is saved… but of the Promise. God said, "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." This coincides with the prophecy that YWYH God will return to Israel. It is that this promise of God returning and a Son is born…

(Verses 9 – 13) Paul makes the point more clear that it is that one is born of God by the Promise and not of the flesh by pointing out that Esau and Jacob had the same father yet, God loved Jacob and hated Esau.

I have taught a couple of places on this so I will not go into it now but please check out this post.
Now, I have heard some go one and on that this passage is about “Nations” and then the other rebuttal that it is “individuals” and I say it is both.

Of course Jacob and Esau are individuals.
Yet, both went on to be Fathers of Nations.

As I pointed out in my post on “Esau I hated…” it is clear that the direct quote comes from the passage in Malachi 1:2-3 and it is definitely about nations, yet also in the story of Esau and Jacob, they are individuals and we see that God may choose a nation but he also chooses by Grace, individuals.


I will point out that God promised Sarah that “at the appointed time” she would have a son, so also Jesus came “at the appointed time” (Titus 1:3) and God revealed His Light through Jesus Christ. Now, Interesting also is that the “younger will serve the older” I see that this as possibly the two covenants in that the Old Covenant of the Law is now over ruled by the New Convent and the Law of Love. Yet, there is a great significance in that Esau will also serve Jacob.

The Moabites are the descendants of Esau and few realize the ">Herod was also a descendant of the Edomites. In that Herod also represented Rome. So on tow levels Herod was the enemy of the Jew. This was part of the reason the Herod desired to be called King of the Jews as it would be the final victory for him as a descendant of Isaac. Yet, the issue is that the “blessings” were passed on to Jacob and not Esau.


Also in the story of Esau and Jacob, Jacob sought after the blessings and birthright and Esau cared nothing for his birthright trading it for food. This is important to realize as I will point out later.

Paul speaks that is by Grace so that “11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls” .

It was decided that Jacob and his descendants would carry the faith of Abraham. Though neither were yet born it was God’s decision to choose Jacob, so that His purpose of election might stand.

Many seem to think election is about individuals, yet if one looks closely at the passages in Ephesians concerning election, in chapter one versus 4-5 we read:

“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…”

Now, as I have talked to Calvinists I have heard them tell me over and over that this means “they” existed “in Christ” before the creation of the world… I do not see it that way. I see that God purposed “in Christ” that His plan of salvation would be done through Jesus. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the only Immortal (1 Timothy 6: 13-16) yet, it seems that Calvin taught that man existed before creation. Some try to say Paul is saying that, yet I see that Paul is simply stating that by His Grace that “those”, meaning a people whom God chooses, not necessarily individuals, will come to Jesus and be placed “in Christ” and be saved. To say somehow the “us” (which is plural btw) is about individuals… misses that though God will choose the individual, man was yet to exist and to exist in any form is more in line with Gnosticism and Mormonism.

To say that somehow man pre-existed is negates scripture:

John 6:46
“No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.”

1 Timothy 6: 13-16

“In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which God will bring about in his own time--God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.”

Roman 2:7

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (Note that Paul only refers to the future and not that they had any pre-existence.)


I Corinthians 15: 51-54

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

(Notice that it is after the mortal is exchanged for the immortal that what is written will come true.)

To say that man somehow “pre-exists” is like I stated more in line with Mormonism and the Gnostic teachings of the Plermora and that man is somehow part of the aeons (eternal beings). Man is not an eternal being he is a created being. To state that man existed “in Christ” is to go against the clear teaching that man is not an eternal being and is mortal.

The Mormons teach that man is eternal. Here is their view.


"We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement -- a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the Church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.'" (LDS Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, Ch.24, p.430 - p.431, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)

“‘It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God,' the inspired word continues, 'and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did.' The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same." (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.64, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)


God is not a uniquely eternal being. All spirit is self-existent matter and is eternal (without beginning or end) . Such "matter (called intelligences) sometimes becomes organized into a spirit being through birth to celestial parents. Then that spirit is born through human parents on earth. Like all people, God took this course and eventually reached Godhood. God would stop being God if intelligences stopped supporting him as God. (D&C 93:29, 33; Abraham 3:18-23; Mormon Doctrine, 1977 ed. p. 751)

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be" (D&C 93:29)

Here is one Calvinists take:

Though I will point out that more well read Calvinists reject the “pre-existence of man", many do hold to this doctrine as biblical.

To quote one I debated recently with where I pointed out that man would have to pre-exist in order to be "in Christ" as many teach or explain this passage.

“Iggy,
you wrote out Ephesians 1:4-5 and you can’t see election in it?
Then you say that the focus of that passage is not “us” but “in Him”.
So what is Paul saying about being in Him?
What or who is in Him? It is “us”. The focus is “us” in what Paul is saying and that we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world What you say Calvinists believe about being in Christ before He has even lived, been crucified and buried and resuurrected is true.
Yes, even before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit! You say, “What a Calvinist does without realizing it is making mortal humans who have not even been created, be known before they are even created.
”No, the Calvinists are not doing this without realizing it. They are believing this with all they got!
Must be that tricky little passage of Ephesians 1:4-5. Yep, that’s the cause of this “terrible” belief!”


Now some Calvinists do reject this and they should… but it seems they give no answer as to how we existed in Jesus without actually existing… Also, I might point out that I do see “election” taught in the Ephesians passage yet not in the way that this person was stating. Also, she needs to read a bit more of Calvin to see that even Calvin rejected her view.

"By saying that they were "elect before the creation of the world" [Ephesians 1:4], he takes away all regard for worth. For what basis for distinction is there among those who did not yet exist, and who were subsequently to be equals in Adam? Now if they are elect in Christ, it follows that not only is each man elected without respect to his own person but also certain ones are separated from others, since we see that not all are members of Christ." (John Calvin Institutes III:22:2)

Yet many do believe this teaching and it is simply a heretical view.

Now, from what I see Calvin actually teaching I think is closer to what I believe, and many Calvinists twist at what I state and do not realize it pretty much what Calvin stated himself.

I see that the “election” was purposed that those “in Christ” would be saved. The “us” is about those of that “election”. It is not about the pre-existence of man in any way.


Here is the bible’ teaching regarding this:

Man is a finite being, not an eternal one. The first man Adam was created at a specific point in time (Ge 1:26-27; 2:7; 1Co 15:45-49). Man did not exist in the beginning when God was creating the universe, for if he had, God's question to Job would have made no sense (Job 38:4).

Now, I see that God knew Jesus as Jesus was in the Father and that all things were made through Jesus. In that "things" did not exist before creation, God purposed a plan of Salvation "in Jesus Christ" that those who would believe and receive would be saved. The "us" Paul is referring to is those that were then in Christ.

Jesus died and rose at a specific point in time. and that was the "appointed time".

The mystery hidden that is Jesus Christ was not known to man until it was revealed. Now, man was known by God, and that "some" would believe and receive Jesus was also known... as well that some would reject the Call and be lost. Now, this sounds close to Calvinism... yet I see that the point of focus is Jesus... and not the elect. Our focus is to always be Jesus.
We are only to verse 13… and this is already a bit too long. So this will be done in two posts… hopefully. LOL!

Cleck here for more thoughts on predestination.

Be blessed,
iggy

DAVE N has left a new comment on your post "J.I Packer and the Five Basic Truths":

I disagree with your statement that man is born innocent. The Scriptures do not teach that, do they? Job 15:14; Job 25:4; Ps 51:5; Rom 5:12;Also, you said, " I think man without God can make a moral choice" According to whose standard? Your's? I think its irrelevant! Lets talk about what God thinks, not Iggy. God is not interested in morality (according to man) He is interested in righteousness (obedience)! Rom 6:16; I John 2:29; 2 Cor 5:21;Lets keep the main thing, the main thing.


Dave N,

Great! Let’s keep the main thing the main thing… I have no problem in that…

First off you misrepresent what I have stated… Man can make a moral choice… even Calvin states that… You missed that I teach it be a “sustained” choice… meaning man fails! You left out half of what I actually teach. I think you have not read enough of me to know for certain as to what I do believe... a comment is not where I do my main teaching... LOL!

But let’s look at what your verses actually state OK? I am using KJV for its universality... though I prefer the NKJV.

Job 15: 14. What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Notice it states that he should “be” clean? It does not state man is born unclean… only that he “be” clean… that means that man still can be born innocent yet fail in his being clean by God’s standards.

Now also the point that Job states about “born of a woman”… this again is not stating that he is born evil… but again shows my point that man is not righteous and will fail in sustained righteousness…

Job 25:4. How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Job Is asking again the same question.. But this still does not state man is born “totally depraved”. The idea of being born of a woman means that man is born evil or “not innocent” is not a ”Christian” teaching but a Gnostic teaching. If you read the other “so called” gospels Gnostic teachings you will see this taught in the form of the Serpent Seed where some teach that Eve conceived a child from the Serpent… in that then all mankind is evil in its fleshly form…

I want to also point out that Job is not talking about woman being evil and passing on the "evil gene" (that will lead to issues later when we have a "perfect Jesus" "born of a woman". The phrase born of a woman means "lowly state" it is a sign of humility that God is immortal and man is mortal. Remember in Hebrews 2 6-7 it states:

But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Man is made lower than the Angels who are immortal... that it one of the main points of the incarnation as Jesus "born of a woman" became a man... So to make

Psalms 51: 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is not about being born in sin rather that (if you have ever noticed) King David’s mother is not mentioned and we can only speculate as to who she is… This leaves us a bit of a question as to his heritage… and possibly that he was a bastard child… note David is the anti-type of Jesus who was also thought by many to be a bastard child… so again this is not stating man is born in sin… rather that his mother sinned when she conceived him.

Rom 5: 12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:.


Again, it is apparent that you have not read much of what I write and teach… as I do not deny man is under the covenant of death and will receive the wages of sin… Yet still in this verse show me where man is born totally depraved or that man is not born innocent.

Now, notice Romans Chapter One.

18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Notice here that man has clearly seen by the things made God’s Power and His Godhead.

21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Notice also here that they knew God… yet made a choice not to glorify Him as God? They professed themselves to be wise? They worshipped idols by choice?

24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


Notice God then “Gives them up”? That they once were innocent but by their own choices turned to worship creation and not the Creator and God “gives them up”.

25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Notice here that they did not “retain God in their knowledge”…. Meaning they did at one time… but forsook God?

29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Man did know God… and this is not about Adam and Eve as Paul seems to make a distinction as to Adam and all mankind. Man can know God even today and choose to seek Him... but until man sees he cannot please God by his own standards and that God's ways are much higher... he will not be saved... it is when a man comes to the end of himself and understands that his good is not good enough and that though he may try and try, once he falls from innocence (as all men do Rom 3:23) he enters under the same covenant of death that Adam came under and in that without the sacrifice of Jesus and His resurrection no one can be saved.

Now the issue of obedience I will refer you to the verse below where you quoted me...

Rom 5:19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Notice it is not our obedience but Jesus'. Everything is imputed from Jesus... we do not walk in our OWN obedience as that is the issue in the first place... we have none to walk in... we do walk in the imputed obedience of Jesus for it is "through the obedience of the one man (Jesus) the many will be made righteous.

I then to do good must totally depend on Jesus to do God's will and purpose in and through me. I have no obedient "works" of my own to offer. (note also Phil 2:12-13)

Now also, I need to clarify, "innocent" does not mean "good" it is neutral as man has yet to sin... but that in his fallen nature will fall into sin.

Also, if you want more info on this topic Irenaeus on Free Will is a good thing to read as he was a contemporary with John the Apostle and a Disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp was directly discipled by John so there is some great heritage there.

Be Blessed,
iggy

This is a podcast of iggyTALKS show 4. I had the privilege to teach at Billings Vineyard church on July 8th on James 2:12-25. The pictures are part of what I am referring to in the opening.

Be Blessed,
iggy