Thursday, November 16, 2006

One quick question…

One quick question…

If Truth “abides” then it must be living…. How can truth abide if it is not living?

Propositions are only a media to carry truth… but propositions are not living…

Not trying to be a “meno” (that is Greek which I don’t know, but I look up things in Strong’s Greek Concordance).

Blessings,
iggy



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23 comments:

ben2590 said...

meno is a verb. You can't be a verb. You can do a verb. You need a noun.

Ben

ben2590 said...

Oh yeah, rocks abide. And they are dead. Meno simply means to remain, stay, abide.

Ben

iggy said...

Ben,

Love is also a verb... and God is Love...

So decide... TRUTH the person... or truth from your reasoning...

Be at peace,

iggy

iggy said...

http://ben2590.blogspot.com/

Ben's blog is here.

iggy

ben2590 said...

Love can be either noun or verb. In God is love you have a predicate nominative noun. Predicate nominatives are never verbs.


Ben

ben2590 said...

Love is either a verb or a noun. In the case of God is love, love is the predicate nominative--a noun.

Ben

iggy said...

Ben,

What do you so with the phrase when Jesus also claimed "I am the Son of God"? Is that not literal to you also?

Mat 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Was Jesus lying when He also said that He was the Bread of Life?

Jhn 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

How about this… was Jesus not literally The Light of the World?

Jhn 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Is He not also the door of the Sheep… literally?

Jhn 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Do you deny Jesus being the literal Resurrection?

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Do you deny that Jesus is literally in the Father and the Father in Him?

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Do you deny that Jesus is the True Vine?
Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

And also that without Jesus your human reasoning can do anything apart from Jesus?

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Do you deny that Jesus literally is I Am?

Jhn 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground.

I affirm and believe all this… and that Jesus was literally The Way, The Truth and The Life… which you seem to deny!

If I am wrong and a heretic… about teaching Truth being a Person and that Person being Jesus… then I am in very good company… here are a few other heretics who have taught this… for your consideration.

By the way Clyde Park is beautiful… how’s the farm? I love that area. I enjoyed living in Bozeman when I did.

Be at peace,
iggy


C. H. Spurgeon’s First Words at the Tabernacle:

I would propose that the subject of the ministry in this house, as long as this platform shall stand, and as long as this house shall be frequented by worshipper, shall be the person of

JESUS CHRIST.

I am never ashamed to avow my self a Calvinist; I do not hesitate to take the name of Baptist; but if I am asked what is my creed, I reply,

"It is Jesus Christ.”

My venerated predecessor, Dr. Gill, has left a Body of Divinity, admirable and excellent in its way; but the body of Divinity to which

I would pin and bind myself for ever, God helping me, is not his system, or any other human treatise; but Christ Jesus, who is the sum and substance of the Gospel, who is in Himself all theology, the incarnation of every precious truth, the all glorious personal embodiment of the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

A.W Pink

“In the Sermon on the Mount our Lord taught His disciples “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you” (Matt. 5:44). Above all others Christ practised what He preached. Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. He not only taught the truth but was Himself the truth incarnate. Said He, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life” (John 14:6). So here on the Cross He perfectly exemplified His teaching of the mount. In all things He has left us an example.”
http://the-highway.com/forgiveness1_Pink.html

Bible Gateway commentary

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/index.php?action=getCommentaryText&cid=4&source=1&seq=i.50.14.1

Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown

John 14:4-7
whither I go ye know . . . Thomas saith, Lord, we know not whither thou guest . . . Jesus saith, I am the way, etc.--By saying this, He meant rather to draw out their inquiries and reply to them. Christ is "THE WAY" to the Father--"no man cometh unto the Father but by Me"; He is "THE TRUTH" of all we find in the Father when we get to Him, "For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9), and He is all "THE LIFE" that shall ever flow to us and bless us from the Godhead thus approached and thus manifested in Him--"this is the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20).
Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians (1535)
by Martin Luther

If you ask how God may be found, who justifies sinners, know that there is no other God besides this man Christ Jesus. Embrace Him, and forget about the nature of God. But these fanatics who exclude our Mediator in their dealings with God, do not believe me. Did not Christ Himself say: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"? Without Christ there is no access to the Father, but futile rambling; no truth, but hypocrisy; no life, but eternal death.

(Comment here: Notice that without Jesus we have no way, no truth, no life… for Jesus is The Way, The Truth, The Life)

Rev. Charles Terpstra

“Jesus is the Way because He is the Truth. That means, of course, that He is the true way to the Father and to heaven. He is not a false way, He is not a misleading way. If you believe on Jesus and receive Him as the road, you will come to the Father and you will get to heaven. But when Jesus says He is the Truth, He also means that He is the reality to which all the Old Testament types and shadows pointed. And it means that Jesus is the revelation of all the truth, all the truth that is found in God, because Jesus is God. Jesus is the revelation of the truth about the Father, about heaven. He is the revelation of truth concerning ourselves as sinners, and about the only way of salvation which is found in Him.” http://www.prca.org/refwitness/1997/1997oct19.html

iggy said...

Ben,

I know what "meno" means...

It is Truth that is living... if it abides...

Truth is the main point I AM focusing on...

Be at Peace,

iggy

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
You said: What do you so with the phrase when Jesus also claimed "I am the Son of God"? Is that not literal to you also?

While I believe Jesus is the Son of God your bringing it up is irrelevant. It, too, is a predicate nominative sentence (not a phrase) and the predicate nominative is "Son," a noun.

You said: I know what "meno" means...

No, you don't or you wouldn't have said you did not want to be one. Perhaps you meant minnow. Were you dressed like a fish in a school play when you were young?
You can't be an "abide." There is no such thing.

You said: It is Truth that is living... if it abides...

No it's not. Lots of inanimate objects or conditions abide just fine. Like an abiding sense that Iggy is blowing smoke. Truth is living, but only figuratively. You actually make the point that many of Jesus' descriptions of Himself were figurative when you bring up the "door to the sheep." Jesus is not a literal door. He has no hinges, knobs, or latches. It is a metaphor describing His protective function for His people, who by the way are sheep only figuratively, not literally. I know. I went to church yesterday. I saw no sheep. Sheep don't drive their cars to church. People do, Iggy.

You said: Truth is the main point I AM focusing on...

No, truth doesn't concern you all that much or you would not pretend to know English grammar when you don't or lie about knowing what a Greek word means even after you have been corrected by someone who does know.

Ben

iggy said...

Ben,

1.While I believe Jesus is the Son of God your bringing it up is irrelevant. It, too, is a predicate nominative sentence (not a phrase) and the predicate nominative is "Son," a noun.

The main point of focus is "I AM" ... you miss that.

2. I said I know what "meno" means... This was just a word play... I was pretending that it meant I was being a "meanie"... you didn't get the joke.

3. You did not answer as to why you think Spurgeon, Pink and the others are heretics also... You just pushed that aside... as if it does not matter... so they are?

So we can agree on one thing then right? The Truth does not life in you then...

Thanks for clarifying that... since it was not the abide i was focusing on as the living part... but Truth...

1 John 1:6
1 John 5:21


Really I think you are too concerned over your predicate nominatives in which you have lost sight of Who Jesus is if you even have ever known Him...

Again, in the sentence focus on the I AM part... it is the crucial part in understanding the relation of the predicate nominative...

In the end you are still denying that a relationship is need for salvation... a realtionship with Jesus... not a predicate nominative.


Be at peace.
iggy

iggy said...

This should read...

"Truth does not live in you", yet for closure, Truth does not abide you you either... again, I agree with you on that also... if you do not have a relationship with Jesus...

be at peace,
iggy

iggy said...

John 8: 32. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33. They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
34. Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
35. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.
36. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Blessings to all,

iggy

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
I didn't take up Pink and Spurgeon because their remarks are irrelevant to this discussion. I was simply pointing out the illocality of saying that something that abides must also live. And that is nonsense.

On the meno thing, "meanie" has a long "e" sound after the "m" as in "keep." In "meno" the "e" sound is short as in "get."

On the predicate nominative thing, your objection seems to be that I know something. Isn't that what we are supposed to do. Simply stepping around your own logical fallacy by smearing me does not make your non-sequitor magically true.

Further, since God revealed so much about Himself in language Christians are to be people of the book--language.

Ben

iggy said...

Ben,
You ARE implicating them in saying I am a heretic as they taught the same thing I am teaching...

You are being dishonest in not engaging in that...

You seem to only pick what you want... and as I have pointed out before have no real interest in whether Jesus is glorified in this conversation...

I find that rather interesting...

You implicate yourself and reveal your own heart...

As I have said before, I forgive you...

of your slander...

Be at peace,
iggy

iggy said...

Again,

Ben's blog...

(Which has no contact info... and does not connect his blog to his own profile... Which is a bit weird. It is like he is hiding something... like his slander...)

Yet, I have not issue with exposing him for what he is...

http://ben2590.blogspot.com/

Publicaly I once again forgive you Ben Stafford. May the peace of Christ be on you and your family and the love of the Lord swell greatly in your heart.
May your walk with Jesus be even more close. May Jesus become more real every day to you. You are not my enemy...

Blessings,
iggy

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
Thanks for forgiving me. I feel much better now. I just have to figure out how quoting you is slander.

However, you still have not answered for insisting that anything that remains is alive. I am sitting on a chair. It remains under my rump so I can type. Perhaps it is hungry since it lives. What should I feed it?

Show me where Spurgeon said Jesus was literally a door, literally information (truth), or literally light.

Is Jesus a light bulb or a candle? Perhaps he is a bunch of photons. Show me his hinges, since he is a door.

By the way since he is literally light and literally information and literally a door, is he data shaped like a light bulb with hinges on it? Oh wait, data lacks mass and spatial displacement. Perhaps he is a wad of old NCR tape shaped like a canle with hinges and a latch.

It is also rather dishonest for an Emerging Church guy to quote an absolutist like Spurgeon or Pink. That is like Dan Quail quoting JFK. Everyone knew it was hogwash. That's why it was a joke.

Ben

iggy said...

Ben,

re read what i asked again... I am not asking about "abide" as that is a verb... as you have said... I am saying that for TRUTH to abide... TRUTH must be ALIVE...

I am talking about TRUTH you are the only one talking about "abide".

How can TRUTH abide if it is not LIVING....

You are totaly misunderstanding the question again... do you do this on purpose?

Again...

Do you think Spurgeon and Pink as Heretics?

Also...

In the connection of the words of Jesus... saying, "I AM" the... He is affirming His deity...

In a conversation I had with someone else recently... I quote, "Does he (Ben) even really read what you write?" This is after reading what you said, and what i wrote... so it seems your comprehension is a bit off.

As I am a bit dyslexic myself I can understand... yet it seems so consitant... like you only do it to get a raise out of me...

I have given you a chance again, and it seems at least you have tried to be more civil... yet if you insist on arguing with yourself over abide when i am talking about TRUTH... then I have no where to go with you... the topic again is TRUTH must be alive... to abide... for something to remain... to live in as we are to "live in Christ" we are to be alive. Agian, look at John 17:17... in Greek and notice that "...Logos is Truth"... Logos is never used for the Bible.. or for scirpture.. it is pretty clear as to what John was saying if you just read John 1:1... in Greek...

You seem to know greek and like to rub it in that I don't yet I can not see how you do not see that when i have asked at least 3 other teachers of Greek as to this and they back me up! So I can only conclude this is personal with you and you just hate me for whatever reason... I will not even try to give a motive as i ahve not idea why...

If I affirm Jesus, then I am in Christ... If it is becuase you think I am a fraud... then I can't help you as I said, my connection with UCMI was for accountability... which at the time i was doing a church plant and that was important to have a covering at that time. i am not doing a church plant on my own any more so am not using the "pastor" title... though I am interning as a "pastor" with Billings Vineyard... and am not ordained by them... yet in a year or two will be.

Your thinking that your attacks have made any change in the "why" i am not using the title "pastor" had nothing to do with any of my decisions... I am only following God's lead in which I am now helping plant a Churcu under Vineyard...

Again, if your beef with me is personal... Then I do nto care to engage with you anymore as I do nto care to continue letting you abuse.


God is Truth itself...

Be at peace...

iggy

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
You just said: I am saying that for TRUTH to abide... TRUTH must be ALIVE...

I know. So you still think that it is necessary of just truth to live to abide. Besides being an blatant attempt to change your argument when you can no longer defend it, you have not solved your problem.

Here is a truth: George Washington fought in the Revolution.

That is a truth. It abides to this day and will continue to be true for eternity. But it doesn't have a pulse.

Ben

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
Oh yeah. Whether or not abide is a verb has little to do with this. Why did you even bring that up?

Do you even know what a verb is?

Do you even know the parts of speech? What is a preposition?

Sorry,
Ben

iggy said...

If George Washington did not LIVE that truth... then it is not true...

Yet, if one can varify that he did live that event then it is true... but if not then it may not be true...

Truth must be lived to be true!

be at peace,
iggy

iggy said...

Also Ben...

You misunderstood the question... I have not change the argument... but rather clarified the question so we are on the same page...

that is all.
iggy

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
You're changing your argument again. You did not start by saying truth must be lived to be true. You said truth must be alive to abide.

But even your new argument is wrong. A rock is gray. That is true. But the rock is still dead. Alwas was. Always is. Always will be.

I have to go now.

Ben

iggy said...

I brought up "meno" as it means abide... in that it needs a Container in which Truth would be placed in... And that would be us… the Spirit who is Truth, (1 John 5:6) then lives in us… and so does Truth… I see this as more than figuratively.

I fully understood that meno was a verb... I used it "wrongly" as a joke because it remotely resembled "meanie" in which Phil Perkins seems to think all emerging church guys are...

The slander is on your blog. You just seem to make things up about me without actually reading my blog and understanding what I have really stated. I have no problem with a disagreement over doctrine and scriptural understandings… I do have a problem with you and Phil Perkins twisting what I say to meet your personal agenda to hurt me on a personal level… It does not hurt me except in this… I hurt that you do not know the Love of Jesus in the way to compel you to love your brothers in Christ… even more so… to be compelled to love your enemies as Jesus instructed.

You seem to take my questions of clarification on a very personal level... in that conversation is really hard with you.

Truth also must be living...it must be lived out past or present to be truth... It must be absolutely verifiable if it is to be absolutely true... other wise... if all we have is a story of G Washington crossing the Delaware… it may not be truth… it may be a myth as in the Greek Gods…

I hope you can at least have grace enough to agree that Jesus is the source of all truth… and allow me the grace to believe that Jesus is everything… as Jesus is everything to me.

be at peace,
iggy