Wednesday, November 15, 2006

Emerging Critic says Jesus was a real dolt

Emerging critic says Jesus was a real dolt

Phil Perkins says Jesus was a real dolt because He claimed to be “The way, The Truth and The Life”. (John 14:6)

In fact the more Phil clings to his “propositional truth” gospel, the more he denies who Jesus is.

Here is the core of his confusion…“Logos” never refers to “scripture” in the Bible… it only refers to God’s “spoken word”… in the generic sense… and ALWAYS used specific of Jesus…

To use John 17:17 to mean Logos is the Bible… we are then in real trouble…

Jesus is not just a teacher of truth… though He did teach truth. I do not deny Jesus even used propositional truth… it is not the “tools” used that I debate, but proper biblical perspective that the “tools” are used in.

And if that is true according to Phil, then Jesus is just a way, and a life…He loses the power and impact of the statement which Jesus said… Phil is denying the deity of Christ.

I am just using Phil’s human logic.

What Phil continues to miss is that he is preaching another gospel in which the “tools” of modernity are used to fit Jesus into modernity’s system.

It is placing flawed human reasoning over Jesus… making Jesus subject to modernity’s claim of sovereignty.

Again, if the passage in John 17:17 is to mean “scripture” or “the bible” then it would have used another word all together… most likely “graphe/ γραφὰς or gramma”. As in the passage in Matthew“22:29 ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, πλανᾶσθε μὴ εἰδότες τὰς γραφὰς μηδὲ τὴν δύναμιν τοῦ θεοῦ· ” (sorry if this font is a bit scruffy again I do not know greek so I can’t tel if the font is distorted or not.)

I have run this past at least two other teachers who know Greek and teach it and they seem to back what I am saying… I know of no teacher of Greek who is worth his salt outside of maybe the Watchtower society who would agree with Phil on his view.

And this guy teaches Greek and Hebrew at Yellowstone Baptist College! (Ben2590 should look into that schools credentials!


Now, I can only conclude that Phil needs to bone up on his Greek… or that he honestly does not understand, or that he is purposely distorting these things so be right… which is wrong… (Yeah I am being so judgmental… and mean.)

I believe that Phil is so blinded with his hate over the emerging church... That he will resort to anything to prove us wrong… even resort to distorting Greek to his own understanding…and that is really sad.

I am not sure I can take any more excursions into Phil or ben2590 version of reality and their twisted gospel of human reasoning to salvation… Who needs Jesus anyway, right? We have human reasoning and propositional truth to light our way… Who needs the revelation that comes from the Holy Spirit when we have Phil Perkins and ben2590 to set us straight?

BTW, Jesus did not use propositional truth... point to one scripture... in fact the parables were His way of confounding man's reason... I challange someone to point to one scripture Jesus uses propositional truth to teach. He would most often say, "I tell you the Truth". Though Paul does use the "tool" Paul also often points that it was out of "revelation" he taught... Paul always used the "tools" to point to truth, and spoke often against human reasoning and human wisdom as a way to God. God is much more complex than mere human propositional truth.

Again, please join in prayer with me as I sincerely believe these men are afflicted by a religious spirit. Pray that they are loosed form the demonic bondage that is blinding them from seeing who Jesus really is which is all I truly want for them.

Blessing,
iggy







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9 comments:

Steve said...

May I ask how you define propositional truth?

iggy said...

Steve,

Propositional truth is simply the statement of; "if" (this is true) "then" (we can deduce this is truth.

It would be like a statement that; "If the sky is blue, then it is not raining."

Propositional truth is only true if the "if" is “then” absolutely verifiably true. This is in itself a propositional truth and yet those who place this type of human reasoning highly ignore that it is.

I can say anything from my relative perspective to be true… if I am color blind and can’t see the color blue then it would be true that the sky is not blue but sort of grayish green and that means it is not raining… then that is truth to me.

In essence it is based on our own relative perspective and limited view. It is based on our own knowledge of things. It in its foundation is based on relativity without the Source of the “if” Being absolutely verifiably true.

Now, the other issue I push that TRUTH is a person… and that Person Being Jesus, and from His statements Truth exists makes Truth then relational. Truth must live in us and from the basis of propositional truth being absolute… that can’t be. For man’s mind is depraved and corrupt. We filter all things through this mind… and only until we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds by the Holy Spirit then we can begin to grasp Truth in its purity.

I see that propositional truth is a “tool” and no more. That Truth is by revelation from TRUTH the Person of Jesus. In that way we have the Source, Truth in its purity, and then we can use the “tool” to reason it out.

What I see is that some deny Jesus as “the TRUTH” or as I say “TRUTH Absolute incarnate”. (Though I do not see that Jesus needs a qualifier of “absolute”.)


So I define truth this way.

TRUTH = Jesus

Truth = revelation from Jesus (the opening of the eyes in scripture to see Jesus in scripture and understand it)

truth = based on human understanding and reasoning.


I just do not see that one can reason themselves to God for salvation… for salvation comes from God.

Blessings,
iggy

Steve said...

Hi iggy,

Thanks for your answer. I’ve understood propositional truth in the classic logic sense as statements that are either false or true.

Your definition adds that something has be absolutely verifiably true.

Am I reading you right?

Blessing back to you!

-Steve

iggy said...

Steve,

If it is to be "absolute truth" it must be from an ablsolute varifiable source...

In that I believe Jesus fits the bill!
(grin)

Blessings,
iggy

Steve said...

Hi iggy,

May I ask how you would prove that Jesus is absolutly verifiable?

I am not trying to pick a fight, I am just trying to understand your terms.

Is this "verifiable" a scientific sense?

Thanks,

-Steve

iggy said...

Steve,

That is where faith comes in… I know that is a bit of circular reasoning… Like using the Bible to prove the Bible is true…
1. We life by faith and not sight.
2. Jesus is a verifiable historical person… like Alexander the Great… or Herod.
3.We receive the Holy Spirit on our conversion… the Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is true.

This is why our faith is not just objective truth… but also subjective as we all seem to have the same experience, though no one can truly prove we had our experience with Jesus by the Holy Spirit. So, my answer is “we live by faith”. We must fully trust and believe that Jesus is real.

We can only understand if we receive the Holy Spirit to give us revelation to open our eyes to see… and our spirits being regenerated, can now attest that something happened yet we cannot scientifically verify it.

Though within our faith… we verify that God is true… and that Jesus is real and He then becomes our vary reality.

So no... this is not varifiable in the scientific sense... but then we are not followers of science... but Jesus.

This is not to say that the "tools" of science are bad or evil... but must be kept in perspective in relation with Jesus.

Yet, if Jesus is as the bible teaches and we live in the biblical world view... then it is verifiable by those teachings.

Again, in approaching the postmodern mind science is suspect. They are looking for a spiritual reality... so if we teach of relationship, and teach Jesus is real... which He is... many of these points on the subjective level will be fulfilled. Postmoderns are more interested in personal truth which is why gnosicism has made such a major return. To me Jesus is both object and subjective truth...



Blessings,
iggy

iggy said...

Steve,

Please do not take my conversation with Ben as how I talk to most other people... Ben has an issue with me... he has decided that slandering me is a righteous thing to do... to expose me... in that I made a major mistake in talking to him... I had hopes of reconciliation, while it seems his motive was as usual was "to catch me" in whatever he thinks he is catching me in doing... I only hope Jesus breaks the religious spirit that has him in bondage to be broken in the Name of Jesus and that Ben is set free in Jesus. I learned after our last exchange that God will have to do it… and it is foolish of me to even try on my own… so Ben is now in the hands of God.

I enjoy conversations... especially with people who respect each other... I love people!

I do not even dislike disagreement not do would I be upset if you do not agree with me... that is your privilege. A good friend once told me that if two people think exactly alike, then one of them is not necessary. LOL!

I was also a bit distracted yesterday with the conversation as I has very little sleep from my job… a sick daughter and a family pet to put to sleep… and an attempt to talk to Ben… all in all a very bad day… (Grin)

Blessings,
iggy

Steve said...

Hi iggy,

I too have enjoyed this. We do see some things differently, but I appreciate your approach with me.

Sorry about your pet and your ill daughter.

Happy turkey day,

-Steve

iggy said...

Steve,

that is why it is so great that we can celebrate our diversity and in our unity "in Jesus"...

We are One Body, many parts... if we were one part, then we would not be a body... and if we are a part unto ourselves, then we are disconnected from the Head...

So really I celebrate that we do not all see things exactly the same... (some think I mean no doctrine which is not the case... but proper "sound" doctrine)from the perspective of all of us are "in Christ".

Blessings,
iggy