~ emerging thought in Montana ~

I want to clear something up.

Some on the blogosphere are referring to me as “Pastor” Carlos Shelton. I do pastor/teach at my church and am on the leadership team. I have not been given the title “Pastor” though I have pastored while doing my church plant and also have been a Youth Pastor.

I do not take the title of office as it is being applied to me because it has not officially been given to me yet.

Pastoring is a gift where one gently loves and guides the people in the congregation. Many people who are not even in the “leadership” role can have the gift of pastor and also love and guide and others. Ephesians 4: 11-13 states:

11. It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12. to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13. until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Notice the phrase "It was he who gave"? God gave these people as a gift and gifted them so do this work and service for the Body of Christ. It is not a "title of authority" though most denominations do use it that way.

I am a Pastor, but again do not take that as a title of office, but as a gift. To apply it to me as a title as Ingrid and Pastorboy do is not accurate.

I am ordained, but because some thought the organization I was ordained through was not “legit” to their specification I rarely mention it anymore. But, since I am not officially been instated by the Vineyard Denomination as a “Pastor” in title, I hope that those referring to me as such will stop as it misrepresents me and what I do.

Thanks,

As most of you know, last year I called for a day of prayer and fasting for Ken Silva.

Here are some related links.

Link One.

Link Two.

Link Three.

Link Four.

Link Five.

That should give you the background as to why and what is needed to be prayed about.

It is my hope that we bless Ken Silva and call him to true integrity and honesty. I pray also that he and his church grow in the Grace and knowledge of Christ Jesus.

Last year it was on August 28th so let's do it that day again this year. Place it on your calendar. Monday, August 28th 2008. Also pray for Ingrid Schuelter of Slice of Laodicea

The idea is that whether one is for him or sees that what he is doing is harming the Body of Christ, that we all pray a prayer of blessing.

The reasoning is that Jesus taught us to do so.

Please join me. God can make a difference.

iggy

Scot McKnight gets asked this a lot... here.
How do you handle critics in general, let alone ones of a very aggressive nature?

Personally I have found humor to help greatly. Praying for them is also highly suggested. Mostly realizing they are just as screwed up as you are helps... (By that I mean I am!) = )
Mostly do not let their bitterness and anger infect you.

Oh, and for those who are critical of contextualization of the gospel in our culture I had this quote for you... LOL!

“Culture is only true when implicitly critical, and the mind which forgets this revenges itself in the critics it breeds. Criticism is an indispensable element of culture.” Theodor W. Adorno
(German philosopher, 1903-1969)

Here are a couple of posts I did on the topic of handling criticism.
What I learned from my critics (Sort of a bitter one)
Some Advise for Handling Critics and False Accusers (A much better way to go!) = )


Be blessed,
iggy

What a different world some live in....

I have been in dialog with John Chisham over the last few days. Here is the continuation.

First here is his "Open Response". His words added to mine are the blue ones though it is hard to tell at times. (could you use a brighter color next time? Thanks. )

Here are a few other references just to help it all come together a bit easier.

Ken Silva posted a transcript. It is done by Paula of Purpose Drivel, though Ken seems to have it "copyrighted" so I will not re-post it. So here is the link to Ken.

Here is the original post which has the "interview". With in this discussion a few others have entered and personally added nothing but name calling.

Here is my response to John's response ; )

John,

I am a brother in Christ as I am saved by grace through faith. When I stated that your conversion might be lacking please take that in context and believe me it was not as you are stating above. I stated that in the context of this interview, the explanation of your “experience” lacked clarity and could be contrasted as being a false conversion of works.

Now we are not that far apart in our theology, in fact we are very close, yet I think there are some things you seem to even miss now.

I stated that salvation was by the Fathers drawing so we respond to what He initiates. This is not works anymore than the child “works” in his own conception and birth. The mother is pushing, and the child will react to the contractions, yet the child wills not his own birth any more than we will our spiritual. It is out of a humble spirit we receive Grace by faith. (God gives grace to the humble scripture)

You stated that my definition of Sovereignty lacks depth, but notice that in the end, you came to the same conclusion and agreed with me that you were not as clear as you ought to have been. I affirm that the bible states as you quoted, yet again this is where one need be careful, as English is not the best in some choice of understanding verses’... Another point would be that Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” KJV creates many issues but if taken in other verses we understand that the word is calamity which means more like disasters and such which God uses at times to judge. Yet, if we are not careful then we will create theology that hinders God’s sovereignty instead of give more understanding to it.

Again, as I stated, you contradict the bible as Jesus own words state that God is not judging us, in fact He has given that over to Jesus. So for you to say “God is a righteous judge” while true, as well as true with Jesus, Jesus stated clearly this;

John 5: 22 “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.”

So you need to decide to follow your doctrine that states God will judge men by the Law, or Jesus’ words that “the Father judges no one.” That is your decision.

Again if God is so “bound” by the Law, then you are stating some interesting things.

Man could obey the Law
By obeying the Law; man could be saved by it.
The purpose of the Law would be then to give salvation by works
The law could give eternal life

None of this is true.

Man cannot obey the Law, the Law’s purpose was solely to show we are sinful
We cannot be saved by obedience or our own works. And the purpose of the scripture itself is to lead us to Jesus as Jesus stated in John 5: 39 “You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Again, this is what Jesus states that seem to go against your doctrinal view.

I get it clearly John and I hope you do as I still have my doubts you do… again this is not a jab, but much of what I am stating is spiritually revealed and missed in many theology classes.

When I speak of “New Creation” it is both present reality (physical and spiritual) as opposed to John MacArthur who teaches it to be “only spiritual and in the future”. (That is a direct quote and I can get it for you later if you desire to hear it yourself. The New Creation will have in it a New Earth and a New Heaven so no it is not the present Heaven as this will pass away with the present earth… as Revelation teaches as well as other places in scripture. We will most likely disagree that it is a continuation, but I see it as the same as I will be the same person at the resurrection but in a resurrected body and so the heaven and earth also will be the same but clothed in perfection.

You stated that you disagreed with me that on when regeneration takes place (I think as you went into many other things we agree on.) yet if you disagree, then you disagree that salvation is both instant and a process. You disagree that it involves the renewing of the mind and that it comes to it fulfillment when Jesus returns as Hebrews Hebrews 9:27-28
“27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

So Salvation is not “done” yet, though we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a promise that we are His.

Ephesians 1:11-14 “ 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”
Again, I think you need to re-read what I originally stated that you are stating you disagree with as I am stating as you restated, “salvation being both a settled and progressive event, with all the progress being made as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.” For that is what I was saying when I stated; “Christ's washing is effective for eternity, but while we are still in this dead flesh, daily washing is still required, until that day when no flesh shall remain. The washing of regeneration is like the baptism of the Spirit in Romans 6; we have been regenerated (born again) the renewal is that continued washing, scrubbing us down to look more like Jesus, so that we can be made heirs.”

If you disagree with this then what you are disagreeing with is Jesus own words again as He stated to Peter, “ 10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.” (John 13: 10-11)

But truthfully we agree though you fail to see it for some reason.
. “to believe rightly”… which is a direct quote, I am happy to see that you are learning already! LOL! But I did not take you out of context at all I took you in context and showed you again where you were not stating things clearly as you want from others.
“ I disagree, that is the absolute starting point for all these things. What makes a Christian is repentance and faith in Christ alone, that is being born from above.”

So you are saying repentance is a “work” we must to as it is required for salvation? I hope not. I think you need to flesh out your definition of repentance and contrast it if you are unintentionally making it a “qualifying condition or work.”
Yet for the most part again, we seem to agree on how salvation comes.
Here as I stated. is that you miss that you are preoccupied about myself and Tony and yet state I “hate” when I share my concerns about very serious things concerning salvation of some of your “friends.” For I see that even”a covenant baptism” can mislead and cause one to have a false conversion. Yet, Chris Rosebrough has stated it is “baptismal regeneration” he believes in… are you going to hold him to account over that? I doubt it…
Nevertheless, to attribute the motive of “hate” to me while not so to yourself seems hypocritical… unless you also “hate” Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, and Brian McLaren and so on.
“How do you know what Ken would say? You are judging a person wrongly! You cannot judge Ken's intentions, only his actions! You are dead wrong there buddy. “

LOL!

Yes you are right as Ken has no consistency. If it is against someone he is against, then he will call them names no matter what they show him as proof… he still calls me “semi pelagian” and in fact has many articles against the “arminians” in emergent… such as Doug Pagitt and Rob Bell. (Though I have not come across anything that about Rob Bell myself) I was going to link to this but it seems Ken’s site is down at this moment. I think that his actions should follow his beliefs and in his actions, this is what he has done in the past and there does not seem to be any sign of his quitting. So, again, unless you are advocating that we believe one thing and act another way other than from what we believe I am not sure why you are so worked up…


As far as works we are in agreement, then you also have issue with Ken and Ingrid as they are teaching “works righteousness.” They believe that you need do “things” to be holy and righteous. I do not as my righteousness, holiness and even my obedience is all imputed to me through Jesus Christ. (Romans 4,5,6 and so on)

“I want to live a right life before God primarily, but as part of my role as a Christian leader, I must contend for the faith in the face of false teachings.


Great! That is why I am here talking to you! Awesome… yet now I am wondering why you are taking so much offense in my calling you to clarity and to contend for that same said faith. The issue often, especially with Ingrid is she confuses style and personal preference with God’s holiness.

“Unity can only be found in truth, and truth is a known commodity. We see it in the Word of God, and in the person of Jesus Christ. I am on the side of Jesus, and He is not on the side of a generous orthodoxy. He is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE no man gets to the Father but by HIM.”

Therefore, with this you are “hating” Brian McLaren? In fact, Brian affirms all of this. Yet, we must never have Truth apart from the Person of Jesus Christ Who is truth as you quoted. How do you know Brian is not also on the side of Jesus…

Again, you attribute “hate” to me, yet state things like this… and see that you also can be perceived as having the same motive?

Therefore, I quote you to you;

“Your hatred is shining through here 1John 4:20 Examine yourself”

“I just want the emergers to be Born Again through faith in Christ and make that the focus of their ministry. Despite What Brian, Doug, Rob, and Tony say, we will not all be winding up in heaven or the hereafter unless we, by God's grace, have placed our faith in Christ alone for our salvation. We do not get there through vain philosophies. We cannot get there from Hinduism, Buddhism, practicing yoga, or contemplative prayer. Jesus is the only way. “

Again, I have not seen this other than when you have misquoted someone on your blog or added to their thought what you thought you have seen. Now one is saying that Jesus is not the Only Way to salvation. Yet, there is so much there and you will not see where you are off here so I am not going to go deeper in this now with you.


“I repent daily of my sins, and I cannot be in yoked together with those who do not follow the way of Christ exclusively. I can be friends with them, but I cannot be in covenant relationship with them.”

I personally walk in faith in the forgiveness of sin that Christ gave at the Cross. I believe in His finished works. I confess daily as I agree with God and live in agreement with Him. We have only a light difference here. Yet, to me I hear you are not resting in your own faith and have not accept fully the forgiveness already given as you seek to repent daily. Hebrews 6: states “4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Repentance is a one time thing but confession is forever. If you still repent then you still seek forgiveness of sins. If I offended you once but returned daily asking for forgiveness would you not get a little tired and wonder why I do no accept your forgiveness and move on? God forgave you at the cross.. Once for all you sins forgiven. Do a study on that phrase “once for all” and it will set you free! But, I see that there though I you still ask for forgiveness you already have and I choose by faith to walk in the forgiveness I have been given we both walk in faith in Christ.

“I am attending Masters Divinity School. Tony misspoke, I did not correct him. I wish I could afford Dr. MacArthurs school. I misspoke several times, because I did not know the nature of this interview. If I had at least a scope of the interview, I would have been better prepared.”

Then you do not contend for truth! (just kidding)…

Again, about God being “bound” … God is not bound to anything. For anything God chooses would be just for He is just. It is not out of Justice that God sent His only Son… but out of Love. And since Jesus fulfilled the Law, God is not bound to it nor was He. He loved us so much He became a man and died for us. This Substitutionary atonement (technically the propitiation of our sins which is much more than substitution) Jesus was the lamb of God that took away the sins of the world…

1 John 2:1 “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.”

Since you did not comment on the rest of my statements, we will work out of what you did comment on.

However, notice that you seem to agree and even when you did disagree, you seemed to misunderstand me…

I hope that you can move from this accusatory feelings toward me and know I have no ill will toward you. I also thank you for taking the time to clarify some of you misspoken things and realize that people are people and no one is perfect. And mostly that we need give grace to all.

Be Blessed,
iggy

March 3, 2008 3:33 PM

An Open Letter to John Chisham aka Pastorboy

John,

I just listened to Tony’s interview with you on your blog, The Down Grade and it was very revealing.

First off I want to say you seem a very nice guy and very personable… this does not always translate on the blogosphere or in the forums we both tend to travel. I appreciate that you are not as much on the attack as I had thought you were… and please as you read this realize I have a friendly smile and do so in a way that I hope is as a friend and brother in Christ and not an enemy. This is not an attack on you at all... just some observations.

Man there are some major errors in your theology! I mean that in the nicest way…

Let me explain one area for starters…

God is sovereign… I hope we agree.

Yet you state that there are some things God “cannot do” like lie.

You have created a major contradiction. For if God is sovereign, then nothing is impossible. If God cannot do something and is “bound” to it, then God is subject to the thing He is “Bound” to… God is not longer sovereign… the thing He is bound to becomes sovereign over God.

Now, it is not that God “cannot do” this or that, but “will not” do something as it is against His nature to do that thing. So you are limiting your Sovereign God and making him less than sovereign. If God is not sovereign then He cannot be just, but must bow to the justice of the thing He is bound to. God will not do some things as it is against His Character. He does things because of His Name as it is because of His character to do or to not to do. If you take away God’s will and bind Him in anyway, then He cannot be sovereign. God may limit Himself as He did in the incarnation as Jesus emptied Himself (Philippians 2:6-7) and became totally dependant on the Father by the Holy Spirit. (John 5:19)

Get that so far?

God in Truth….

God is Truth and Jesus is the Truth Incarnate. To know Truth we need to know Jesus. We do not approach God from our view of Truth but from His. Jesus states in John 5: 39-40. “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Without the Person Who is Truth Incarnate and without first having the Life that is in the Son you cannot have Truth. We may have a perception of Truth but it will only be relative to our own limited knowledge. So to say that we are to seek God in Truth is backwards… God reveals His Truth to us and we gain understanding of Truth by that revelation by what is called the “renewing of the mind”. (Romans 12:2) This is called regeneration and is the process in which we are transformed on this side of the New Creation until we receive our New Bodies in the fulfillment of the New Creation.

That is why to place regeneration ahead of salvation is a bit dangerous as it implies one has already arrived. As we are “Born of Heaven” or “Born from above” which is the literal translation of being “born again” we begin the process of regeneration that comes to its fulfillment when we are in the New Creation. (Titus 3:5) You might note in Titus 3:5 that it is “the washing” which is not the same as “having been washed” it is a process that begins and continues until we are “renewed” by the Holy Ghost at the Resurrection, as stated in verse 7 if you stay in context.

So we may agree that one need be born of heaven, yet I think that you miss the nuance of what is actually going on by the system of theology you use.

It is not as you stated. “to believe rightly”… in fact, you miss the subtle nuance of the passage in which it is that if one believes they are not condemned and in that if they do not believe they are condemned already. It is not in the “belief” but the person that one is saved. Or as Jesus stated, “so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” (John 3 14-15) So what you have done and is done most often unintentionally is switch the focus from belief in Him to being saved by one’s “Belief” and even more narrow, a “rightly believed, belief” … and this is what Plato taught and was known as Gnosticism… to believe in our own beliefs or abstract thoughts or the immaterial … as if it was a higher reality than the material. This is dangerous as it is subtly moving salvation being based on “the Person of Jesus Christ come in the flesh” to “immaterial abstract beliefs” and as John teaches in 1 John 4: 2. “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3. but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.” So if I was not as nice as I was I would point out that you have allowed the Spirit of anti Christ replace the Person of Jesus if you assert that it is our belief that saves us… of course I do not think you believe that, but as I listened to you talk to Tony Jones… that is exactly what you stated and I heard.


Now, “What makes a Christian” is not as important as how one is brought to and finds salvation. Often what makes a “Christian” is reduced to being religious. Jesus stated that we are to believe and do. Not just believe. So much focus is on just believing and not doing. In fact much of the doing is man made busy work… and misses the “works of God” done in and through us.

Yet here you also stated that some confess things like "baptism saves us"... and yet, there are those like Chris Rosebrough who goes to the Lutheran church... and believes just this! Yet, you are more concerned that Tony thinks that most do not "think" this way, while you ignore Chris Rosebrough teaching others what you have just condemned... http://www.blogger.com/www.extremetheology.com

I know you will then say, that you are not responsible for Chris, yet then how are you responsible for Tony or me or anyone for that matter?

I see an agenda a mile wide and in a huge steaming pile and the consistent refusal to face your "comrades in arms". In fact as you stated you are a Cal-Minian, which is fine with me, yet Ken Silva would state flat out you are a semi-pelagian and have a man loving man based faith… and as I listen to you I would actually agree!

Now as I listen to Ingrid and Ken, Ingrid teaches a gospel of "works righteousness" as well as Ken Silva who teaches so many things that not only condemn emergents, but almost every single person who contributed to Christian History!

Again, you seem to be blind to all that... and focus on the gnat while the camel swallows you.

You are in the minority and in that minority there is a huge contradiction. You have Lutherans and Calvinists saying that we must be like them, when historical Luther did not like Calvin though Calvin liked Luther... Zwingli agreed with all points with Luther except over the Lord's Supper and Luther refused to talk to Zwingli ever again after their meeting.

So, which tradition of man are we supposed to follow all in the name of being reformed?

Again, if someone on your "side" studied some history there might be a breakthrough... we might find common ground and actually seek real Unity in the faith.

Did you know according to Dr David Calhoun at Worldwide Theological Seminary, which is a reformed school that the teaching of Grace might have been lost if it was not for the Christian Mystics? That these men inspired Augustine, Aquinas, St Bernard, which inspired Luther, and Calvin and all the great reformers?

What we have is a huge lump of ignorance attacking others out of their ignorance...

Did you realize that the one who gave us St Anthony of the Desert also was instrumental in giving us the present canon of scripture as well as the Nicene Creed?

Again, this is how dangerous people like Ken Silva and Ingrid are...

Did you know that Ingrid pushed a form of Contemplative prayer on her own blog while attacking others for practicing it?

I mean you guys always attack the Emerging church on thing and call us to be like you, yet we look at history and wonder which "you" are we to be? It seems that you can't even decide which one you should be... and you want us to be like you, and you claim all this certainty?

I stand here again calling you and your friends to repentance in the Name of Jesus... that you would seek Unity in the Faith in Christ and not around your man made indecisive doctrines.

The bottom line is that when I listened to you speak and noted that you are attending John MacArthur’s Masters Institute… working on a Masters degree… and you state that the emerging church or emergent are “hard to nail down” or “some squishy or untidy language being used” and I hear you contradict yourself all over and as I pointed out… I wonder what is being taught at that and other seminaries.

Again, John this is not meant to be harsh or mean or whatever, but just what I have observed and heard from your camp and from you.

Now realize we have not even gotten into your view of the atonement and how you seem to deny the finished works of Christ on the Cross by stating that God is “bound” to punish those according to the Law. In fact you contradict Jesus own words by saying that God is bound to “judge” mankind… John 5:22 flat out states the contrary to your assertion. “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son” is what the bible teaches. In fact Jesus goes on to say that “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (you might recongnize John 3:17 there) to condemn means that Jesus would judge it, yet scripture also states, “-those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” (John 5:29) but what you are missing is who and how people who do evil will be judged. “You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. (John 8:15-16) which leads us to how one will be judged, "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” (John 12: 47-48)

First notice why one will be judged besides doing evil. It is because they rejected Jesus, they are not judge because God is bound by the Law… it is because they rejected Jesus.

Second, notice that it is by the Words that Jesus spoke… for as scripture states, “The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.” (Romans 8:6). Jesus dealt with sin on the Cross and in with that we are only faced with the wages of Sin… which is death. What do dead men need most? Life! The Life is in the Son… Christ died “once for all” or as scripture states, “he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself”. Notice that last phrase, as it is very important in understanding the Cross… “to do away with sin” or as John the Baptist stated, “Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. You confuse the propitiation of sin with salvation, for as Roman 5:10 plainly states; “For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”

We are saved through His Life… yet you are still saying that God is bound by the Law that Jesus fulfilled and must punish mankind by that demands of the Law. This is not the proper understanding of the Law at all. The Law was to reveal sin and show that wrath was stored up for us, yet instead we find God is longsuffering and kind and gave his only Son to die in our place so that we may have new life by the power of the Resurrection. People who reject Jesus reject their own salvation. It is that simple.

There is much more John that I would love to talk about with you. I do hope this will lead you into a deeper understanding of what our great faith is about and that we share.

Be blessed,

iggy

This is just an observation. But has anyone else noticed that some of the "biggest" critics out the, like Ken Silva or Chris Pajak do not have any pictures of themselves anywhere on their blogs or other sites? It is like the unknown comic... was he a legit comic? Really, the gong show as big as it's success really never catapulted him to fame. His jokes were lame and so on... and I guess all that was the reason he never showed his face to the public. There are some that are even saying Ken Silva is not even a real person but a group of people writing as if he was a real person. (I do not believe that myself) = )

Now, I am not stating that the people I mentioned are like lame comics who are afraid to show their faces... well maybe I am. But, really if someone cannot show their face, I wonder if it is really worth listening to their voice? I wonder if it is that they actually live in "fear" from all those they attack? I am not sure... but I see that if you can't show your face in public, then their might be something wrong. I say this as one of these guys tried to mock me in how I look... but at least I will say I was flattered in their comparison and will add I walk in no fear of man. I will not only show my face but stand before man and God and as Luther stated;

“If the emperor desires a plain answer, I will give it to him. It is impossible for me to recant unless I am proved to be wrong by the testimony of Scripture. My conscience is bound to the Word of God. It is neither safe nor honest to act against one’s conscience. Here I stand. God help me. I cannot do otherwise.”

Be Blessed,

iggy

It starts with a guy called, (sorry if this is offensive, it was his choice of names not mine.) Poop is Emergent.

Poop is Emergent Too said...
Chris L: Driscoll was Catholic by backround...And Pagitt was once a pastor in the Baptist General Conference which is not liberal by most standards...

Also lack of certain trust in Jesus and his word and revelation is not humility, it is foolishness, masqurading as humility.

By your definition it would seem that Jesus was nothing more than an arrogant fool when he claimed "Unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
February 12, 2008 1:18 PM

Yes, we all remember the words of the man asking Jesus to heal his son in Mark 9:23-24 as foolishness...

""`If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes." Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!""

Yes, such a masquerade that man put on...

iggy February 12, 2008 1:26 PM

Therefore they cannot be compated in the context of P's comment.
February 12, 2008 1:53 PM

iggy said...
Ken,

So by your infallible logic,

Doug is saved...

He is of the Elect and no one can snatch him out of Jesus' hands... not even you.

thanks! = )

iggy
February 12, 2008 1:57 PM

Ken Silva said...
iggy,1) It isn't my logic.

And 2) I didn't say anything at all about Doug being saved. What I said was he "is functioning as a Christian pastor".

February 12, 2008 2:10 PM

iggy said...
Ken,

Then by your "not your logic" a "Christian" pastor is not "Christian"?

Interesting... so Doug is not saved and is a "Christian" pastor...

I am enjoying this "logic" lesson... or your "not your logic" lesson.

Please enlighten us more. = )

iggy February 12, 2008 2:16 PM

Ken Silva said...

iggy,

I believe you're sharper than this: "a 'Christian' pastor is not 'Christian'?" One can claim to be a Christian, but that doesn't make it so. I certainly wouldn't have called Pagitt as pastor and I don't personally think he is a Christian.

However, it is an incontrovertable fact that Doug Pagitt "is functioning as a Christian pastor.""

So, let's look at your "not my logic" here:

So one is a Christian only if you say they are.

I see... so it all depends on YOU and what YOU think...

Got it.

iggy
February 12, 2008 2:48 PM

I'm afraid you and I aren't going to get anywhere here so it's best we drop it. In my opinion, to paraphrase a famous saying: "Your reasoning has left the building."
February 12, 2008 3:20 PM

I agree, your logical orbit is a bit too small for me.
See ya,

igs
February 12, 2008 3:22 PM

I received this in the comments on my post My last words to my HYPER CRITICS . Originally I posted a comment back but then decided not to... but I have decided to let you the reader read this and post your comments to this person.

Be blessed,
iggy


I'm not your critic, don't even know you. If your involved in the Vineyard movement, I'll just consider that you have not come to your right mind.

My question has to do with your introductory comment:

"I find it rather strange how some will demand perfect doctrine from others…"

How do you square that with:

I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another...and

...As each has received a gift, use it to serve one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace: 11 whoever speaks, as one who speaks oracles of God...and

...knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation...and

... Do not add to his words,
lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar...and

...I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book....

Though no one can demand you must believe perfect doctrine and hold it, the Scripture does. It does it in this way. That which is opinion is not truth. Only that which can be established as true is to be taught. That is what Paul and Peter, Solomon and Jesus were saying: Do not go beyond what is written. Simply, and profound. The rule is this, if you do not know it to be the truth and the only truth, keep your mouth shut, or as Proverbs would say: Even a fool is counted wise when he remains silent, or a fool does not wait to hear the end of a matter before speaking. There are sound words to learn and if there are not, then we have no Bible, even a poorly translated one to refer to.

I will leave you with this:

Teach and urge these things. If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain...So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter...I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them...charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine...If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed...Command and teach these things. Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you. Practice these things, immerse yourself in them, so that all may see your progress. Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers...

The fact is iggy, the Word of God, that is Jesus Himself (ref Revelation) commands us to hold perfect doctrine. It is a simple thing, as I said. Stay within the bounds of what you know. To do more or less is to condemn yourself: “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

To put it in the language of the emergent, get your pompous head out of your posterior cavity and come into the light...

Sorry for the crudeness, but these are straight forward statements of Scripture all agreeing with one another, simple enough that even a child can understand them. I have simple words for my children: The world is not pink, your head is not your butt, and don't piss on a flat rock. Crude but effective with children and all Biblical, in a weird sort of way. I would not preach it that way except to my kids. They understand it though.

One last thing: What do you have that you did not receive?

Posted by lordodamanor 11/14/2007 12:06:00 AM

Ingrid Schlueter of Slice of Laodicea and Hope in Laodicea (both a bit ironic of names if you understand what happened biblically to Laodicea) has been often on rants against "contemplation" and "meditation" in which the emerging church has "latched" onto. Now, this is not the same as some Hindu practice... nor is it a derivative of it, though some practice a version of Yoga in which they focus on God and scripture and prayer...

Now the thing is that amazed me is that Ingrid in all her rants often turns to the Puritans for inspiration and either never really read this PDF form or missed what the writer stated... in a way it is not that far from something Doug Padgitt or Brian McLaren have stated. Here is the quote that caught my eye... I have added the bold to emphasize the part that Ingrid missed

"We rightly criticize those who engage in transcendental meditation and other mindrelaxing exercises because these practices are connected with false religions, such asBuddhism and Hinduism, and have nothing to do with Scripture. Such forms of meditation focus on emptying the mind to become detached from the world and to merge with the so-called Cosmic Mind, not to attach to, listen to, and to be active for a living,personal God. Yet, we can learn from such people the importance of quiet reflection and prolonged meditation." (PDF FILE)

So now it seems that IF Ingrid approves of a "form" of prayer it is fine, but if the emerging church practices it, it is worldly and of Satan...

I guess the Truth is that some see that some would rather exchange Jesus' righteousness for their own righteousness and judge others by themselves as the high standard... yet then turn around and practice and teach what they also judge others for doing.

Romans 2: 1-5
"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. "

So is Ingrid now the new "emerging guru"?

Be Blessed,
iggy

I don't go to Christian Research Network any more... I used to, but ever since the day of prayer for Ken Silva, I have lost interest in them... so prayers were answered...

Now, I still go to Christian Research Network info and analysis where I found this.


This is the gist of the "hypocrisy"

"Well, Hyatt has now indeed done something rather foolish in linking this video at his Bob.Blog. You see this South Park production actually is mean-spirited and offensive to those of the Mormon "faith tradition" thereby exposing his own Hip Hip Hip Hy-pocrisy!"

So the bottom line is this,

You can attack and slander and lie about other Christians, yet if you show an accurate portrayal of the Mormons... even from "South Park" it is hypocrisy?!

There is a huge difference here... Bob never created South Park... which is accurate in its portrayal of Mormons. Team Pyro created the Emergent-See Po-Motivators For Emerging Christians posters which are mean spirited and an INACCURATE portrayal of the emerging Christians... Now, the kicker is CRN still linked to the video (via Bob's blog) themselves... you know that foul mouthed video (he uses the word "ass"). So, they are complaining about Bob linking to the video while they link to Bob's link to the video... (Can you say hip-hip- oh... oh come on! This is about as "dum" as it can get!)

Now, what makes me more angry (OK, let's just say upset) is that CRN and Ken Silva made me watch South Park... and now seem to also defend the Mormon "faith tradition" thereby And worse they made me stumble by having me watch South Park! LOL! You see I had heard about the video, yet, because I do not like South Park, I did not watch it or had any desire to... until CRN decided to attack a friend of mine and claim it was "dirty" (spoken in that hushed kind of way). So thanks Ken and Crew!

Now