"John MacArthur teaches(?) us who killed Jesus..." pt 2

I posted a video of John MacArthur where he stated some anti-Semitism statements and in response someone stated that I was taking John out of Context...

Here is a link to the context.


Note still that after John MacArthur makes his comment all hear what he states and takes it as anti semantic... also note that John states that the Law of the OT was not "true" which I think God and Moses would disagree with that statement! LOL! It was not that the "religion" was not true it was what and how the religious leaders used it that was wrong.

KING: Who killed him, John?

MACARTHUR: Well, the Romans executed him on the mountain, but they did it under duress and the pressure of Jewish leaders, who hated him, not because of the cure he offered but because of the indictment. I mean, he went to his own town. One of the most riveting portions of the whole New Testament, Luke Chapter 4, he goes to Nazareth, where he grew up, goes back to his synagogue where he attended every Sabbath, he's with his family, his relatives, his friends that he grew up with. He preaches one sermon there, and they try to throw him off a cliff. It wasn't that they didn't want the kingdom of God or salvation or forgiveness or heaven or whatever. They couldn't accept the diagnosis that their religion was not true, that it was not of the heart. And that was the issue that finally drove them to the cross.

KING: I want to see how a Jew reacts to that.

MANNING: That was a reaction especially significant to me, that what upset them was that Jesus was open to finding God's presence even among people who were not Jews. And that really shocked them.

Though John does state these things are secondary, it still does not negate that all there on the panel and also Larry King heard what John stated and heard it as anti Semitic. I might add also that John seem to have a disconnect between "social issues" and "religious issues" which shows a great error of compartmentalizing the Gospel to fit one context and not another.

KING: How does a Jew react to that? You killed him.

PRAGER: No. That's exactly it. I know you're not blaming me. He's not blaming me. He's blaming me. He doesn't like my politics. OK.

KING: I like you.

PRAGER: I know you do. And I appreciate it. It's mutual. Listen, this is key. I have no issue. No Jew will have an issue with saying Jewish leaders of the time, along with the Romans, conspired to kill him, even though the Jews couldn't do it alone, they didn't have the death penalty or crucifixion. Plus the fact that tens of thousands of Jews were also crucified, other Jews, which is also necessary to point out.

The problem has only been if Christians said Jews are to blame forever, all Jews all the time. That's, and unfortunately, in Europe, not in America, and I tell the Jews make a huge distinction between the Jewish experience with American Christians and European Christians. There, Jews were frequently blamed for something that they had no hand in, and that is evil. But to say that -- but I have no problem in saying that there were probably Jewish leaders, who, according to the story, who conspired with the Romans.

KING: It begins the era of anti-Semitism.

PRAGER: Yes, it does. Because the reader -- it's up to the reader. And this is what I have learned, no matter how divine you find the text, it is still in our hands what we do with the text. This is the ultimate freedom God has given us.

KING: Your interpretation.

PRAGER: Two people can read the same text and one can say, that God ultimately killed him and we are of the branch of Judaism, as evangelical Christians and many Catholics will say today, and others will say damn the Jews. Reading the same text.

KING: Jon Meacham, I'll come to you in a second. I got to take a break. You wanted to say something, John MacArthur?

MACARTHUR: It's much deeper than that. No true Christian transformed on the inside by faith in Jesus Christ is going to be an anti-Semite. What you have is people who call themselves Christians, but who have not been transformed by the power of Christ. They're the ones that would be anti-Semitic.

KING: In other words, if you're a racist, you can't be a Christian.

MACARTHUR: No, if you're a Christian, you will be converted from your racism.

KING: You can't be a racist if you're a Christian.

MACARTHUR: That's right. So true Christians...

KING: So when churches were segregated on Sunday morning, they were non-Christians.

MACARTHUR: You know, I have a real trouble believing -- we're talking about a different issue now. We're talking about a social issue, not a religious.

KING: But they were Christian.

MACARTHUR: I think Christians act like Christians. I think Christians are transformed people. And lots of people take the label, but don't know Christ.

KING: Wasn't it Mark Twain who said, if Christ came back, the one thing he wouldn't be is a Christian.

MACARTHUR: That's another overstatement by Mark Twain.

So, that is the context, and it shows that John did state anti-Semitic statements... Whether that be that he was lost in his secondary points or that he just forgot that the Father's Plan was that Jesus come and die for our sins... seems rather interesting as he has written books on this topic and is considered an authority. At least on enough to be on Larry King Live....

I will note also as one reads this, one will see John MacArthur's double speak as pointed out by Prager:

No. That's exactly it. I know you're not blaming me. He's not blaming me. He's blaming me. He doesn't like my politics. OK.

The point is this. If John holds others to a certain standard then does not live up to it... should he not then extend a Grace to them instead of declaring war on them?

Oh! Here is something to give a little more levity to all this from Bob Hyatt.



Be Blessed,
iggy

The mystic ladder of Divine love, according to Saint Bernard and Saint Thomas Step Four

The fourth step of this ladder of love is that whereby there is caused in the soul an habitual suffering because of the Beloved, yet without weariness. For, as Saint Augustine says, love makes all things that are great, grievous and burdensome to be almost naught. From this step the Bride was speaking when, desiring to attain to the last step, she said to the Spouse: ’set me as a seal upon thy heart, as a seal upon thine arm; for love—that is, the act and work of love—is strong as death, and emulation and importunity last as long as hell. The spirit here has so much strength that it has subjected the flesh and takes as little account of it as does the tree of one of its leaves. In no way does the soul here seek its own consolation or pleasure, either in God, or in aught else, nor does it desire or seek to pray to God for favours, for it sees clearly that it has already received enough of these, and all its anxiety is set upon the manner wherein it will be able to do something that is pleasing to God and to render Him some service such as He merits and in return for what it has received from Him, although it be greatly to its cost. The soul says in its heart and spirit: Ah, my God and Lord! How many are there that go to seek in Thee their own consolation and pleasure, and desire Thee to grant them favours and gifts; but those who long to do Thee pleasure and to give Thee something at their cost, setting their own interests last, are very few. The failure, my God, is not in Thy unwillingness to grant us new favours, but in our neglect to use those that we have received in Thy service alone, in order to constrain Thee to grant them to us continually. Exceeding lofty is this step of love; for, as the soul goes ever after God with love so true, imbued with the spirit of suffering for His sake, His Majesty oftentimes and quite habitually grants it joy, and visits it sweetly and delectably in the spirit; for the boundless love of Christ, the Word, cannot suffer the afflictions of His lover without succouring him. This He affirmed through Jeremias, saying: ‘I have remembered thee, pitying thy youth and tenderness, when thou wentest after Me in the wilderness. Speaking spiritually, this denotes the detachment which the soul now has interiorly from every creature, so that it rests not and nowhere finds quietness. This fourth step enkindles the soul and makes it to burn in such desire for God that it causes it to mount to the fifth, which is that which follows.

A bit of Humor...

New Bar In Town

In a small mid western conservative town, a new bar/tavern started building a building to open up their new business. The local Baptist church started a campaign to block the bar from opening with petitions and prayers. Work progressed, however right up till the week before opening, when a lightning strike hit the bar and it burned to the ground.

The church folks were rather smug in their outlook after that, till the bar owner sued the church on the grounds that the church was ultimately responsible for the demise of his building, either through direct or indirect actions or means. The church vehemently denied all responsibility or any connection to the buildings demise in its reply to the court.

As the case made it's way into court, the judge looked over the paperwork at the hear ing and commented, "I don't know how I'm going to decide this, but as it appears from the paperwork, we have a bar owner that believes in the power of prayer , and an entire church congregation that doesn't!"

Day of Fasting and Prayer for Ken Silva is Today

Please take some time today to pray for Ken Silva.

You may comment and pray there if you want, but please this is not a time of being "anti" something and have respect for Ken... but a time to spread hope and express to God that we love Ken Silva and desire God's best for him.

Blessings,
iggy

MacArthurite Values... Modernity double speak

I found this one poster the first and maybe the only poster that was remotely close... Personally I see that we all still use the "tools" of modernity as well as "post-modernity" yet the values of both are not "Christian". In fact as I learned that in the emerging church from other emerging Christians! We do not believe in "post-modernity" as THE answer.


Yet, the hypocrisy becomes clearly evident from Phil Johnson and Crew who developed these posters. These men are also apologist fro John MacArthur so this double speaking hypocrisy does not surprise me at all considering the source.


Here is a quote from Phil Johnson as he once promoted an pro Spurgeon/anti modernity stance in contrast to this poster that seemingly pokes fun at "emergents" but reveals that they are FOR MODERNITY! LOL!

"Even if I lived well into my eighties, I could probably
post Spurgeon excerpts twice a week from now until I die and still not run out of material where Spurgeon was declaring his contempt for modernism. All of it would demonstrate conclusively that the various paradigm-shifts convulsing the evangelical movement today are nothing but recycled versions of the same old errors that were being foisted on church leaders by so-called "advanced thinkers" in the Victorian era. That movement ultimately grew stronger despite the opposition of Spurgeon and others like him. Modernism finally commandeered most of the mainstream denominations, then quickly piloted them to their demise." ~ Phil Johnson (source 2)

Here is a quote from Spurgeon against modernity:

"The school of modern thought laughs at the ridiculous positiveness of Reformers and Puritans; it is advancing in glorious liberality, and before long will publish a grand alliance between heaven and hell, or, rather, an amalgamation of the two establishments upon terms of mutual concession, allowing falsehood and truth to lie side by side, like the lion with the lamb." ~ Spurgeon ( Source 2)

Note the source is still Phil Johnson's now pro modernity blog?


Here is another quote against modernity from Pyromaniac's Phil Johnson:

"It's hard not to notice that Spurgeon was on the same side of all these issues—and he was saying exactly the same kinds of things—as those who are most troubled about the drift today. There's little question that Spurgeon would have appreciated and sympathized with "Slice of Laodicea"; he would have been scoffed at and derided as an intolerant "TR" ("Truly Reformed") by certain small-minded critics who apparently cannot imagine a more scathing insult; and he would have been mocked and dismissed by more "enlightened" minds who (in the name of
catholicity) reject and exclude every person who raises any biblical concern about the direction they want to go." ~ Phil Johnson

Again, with this poster Phil seems to have flipped flopped his position like Al Gore when he began to run with Bill Clinton, to now say by this poster that:

"Modernity now is alive and is a good thing because emergents are against it."

(*Phil never stated that other than what is implied by this poster.)

I wanted to thank CRNinfo for bringing this to my attention.

Source 1: Looks like the Spurgeon-followers finally got one right
Source 2: Pyromaniacs
Source 3: More Signs of the Times

Blessings,
iggy

The Pride of Evangelicalism: ‘Man Saves Man’ and Decisions Are The Plan: A Responose

I just read this post... The Pride of Evangelicalism: ‘Man Saves Man’ and Decisions Are The Plan


And my response is...

Huh?

When I was involved in the "seeker/purpose models... we never taught man can save man... salvation is and was and will always be of God....

Even more so I know of not one person who teaches this in the emerging conversation...

For all my years as an Evangelical Christian it has always been taught:

Ephesians 2: 8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

This was taught in the Evangelical Church... and every church i have attended....

So, all I can say to this straw-man accusational post... is

HUH?

Be Blessed,
iggy

Paul the Pragmatist. or All Pragmatism is Wrong?

Philippians 1:15-18 (New International Version)


"It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

Thanks to Tim Reed in the comments at CRNinfo

More on this topic later, just getting the creative juices flowing!

Blessings,
iggy

Getting ready for the fast and prayer Aug 28th...

The Christianity Today article is out...

"The angriest websites are those belonging to small, but disturbingly visible, fundamentalist Protestant groups outraged that fellow Protestants appear to be holding out a welcoming hand to Catholics or Orthodox Christians.

Leading the charge against alleged ecumenists is Apprising Ministries (AM), a New Hampshire-based group whose leader is Southern Baptist pastor Ken Silva. Rick Warren, according to AM, is a "milquetoast." Schuller and the late Norman Vincent Peale are "the devil's duo." Richard Foster (a leading Quaker writer on Christian spirituality), Brian McLaren (a leader in the emerging church movement), and Joel Osteen (pastor of Lakewood Church in Houston) are "vipers of new evangelicalism" and "whitewashed tombs." Through the Web, such commentary gains a global audience—Christian and non-Christian."

Again, Ken's reply was:

"Since Christ gave it to me, then I say, the Lord be praised…. Have these people ever considered that the anger coming through me as a pastor-teacher sent by the Lord just might not actually be my own?" ~ Ken Silva

Also Ken response to me about this day of prayer and fasting was this mocking response:
Ken Silva Will Be Blessed Next Week!

So, again join me in prayer and fasting to bless Ken Silva.

Blessings,
iggy

The Truth Wars... a reflection

I saw this and thought of the "Truth Wars" and thought...

If we are saved by Grace through Faith can one Christian be a "better" Christian than another?

It seems that scirpture teaches all are now equal first that all men sin and will die... and be judged. Then that if you be in Christ that there is no longer Jew of Gentile (which was a form of elitism in the scirpture as some Jews thought a person need convert to Judaism to be truly saved) and no male or female...

Yet, some think their Grace is of higher purity than others... I am not sure how they come to this heretical thought, but if one thinks they have all the truth... they seem to no longer have need for Jesus Who is Truth.

Truth is taught as an "absolute" it is taught as an "unchanging object". Truth is taught to be a higher reality as if there are two worlds... (dualism as taught by Plato) We are taught that we need to live by "principles" and that Truth is "propositional".

Yet, the bible elevates truth beyond these things... Truth is no longer an "object" but a Person... Truth is no longer an impersonal abstract absolute or an unchanging principle, as Truth became a man and dwelt amongst us.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Truth... and from Him all truth comes. It flows from Jesus as streams of living water. Yet, many hold to the idea that Truth is less than that and deny the revelation that Truth is now a Person and is now relational.

If truth is a higher reality, then we miss this personal aspect.

The bible teaches that the festivals and traditions of the Old Testament were truths in abstract and shadow form... and the reality is the Person of Jesus Christ. (Colossians 2:17) Even the principles and truth of the Law was only a shadow of what is to come... and not the reality. (Hebrews 10:1) Again this reality is now the Person of Jesus Christ.

We are to move from mental assent (simple belief) to a deeper belief called faith. Faith is the acknowledgment that is relational. When a spouse is faithful, they are staying true to their marriage vows... yet even more are staying true to their relationship with their husband or wife. So, as we experience the faithfulness of God in our salvation, we live by faith and interact in a Personal relationship.

As we walk and learn from Jesus, we come to realize that He is Truth and we learn to listen and follow His voice... that take trust. We are designed for relationship with God through Jesus.

Again, Jesus does teach truth (be it propositional) yet we must not reduce Jesus to a mere proposition or principal. In Christ we have life. We are to live by His Life... in that the truths we learn of and from Jesus, becomes our life and our New Reality... For now we are New Creations and in us God starts the beginnings of the New Creation.

Blessings,

iggy

The Jewish Dog...

My friend Eric who is a fulfilled Jew/Messianic Jew and heads up Tree of Life Ministries sends me some funny jokes now and then.

Here is the latest:

Shalom,
Canine Bar Mitzvah
There was once a man who wanted to make a bar mitzvah for his dog. He decided that he would consult his Orthodox Rabbi and seek his advice.
The Rabbi said "Are you crazy!!! a Bar Mitzvah for a dog."
The man replied, "Yes, Rabbi. He has been part of my family for thirteen years"
The rabbi said, "I'm sorry. I can't do this for you"
The man continued and went along to a conservative rabbi and the rabbi responded in the same way "I can't do a Bar Mitzvah for a dog".
The man went ahead and asked his local Reform Rabbi if he would do the Bar Mitzvah for him. The Rabbi said, "Listen, we do a lot of crazy things around here but a Bar Mitzvah for a dog is absurd."
The frustrated man responded, "Rabbi, I'll give you $18,000 to do this for me......Please..!!!" The Rabbi quickly shot his head around and said "You never told me the dog was Jewish."

Blessings,

iggy

Forgiveness

Luke 5:17-26

One day as he was teaching, Pharisees and teachers of the law, who had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem, were sitting there. And the power of the Lord was present for him to heal the sick. Some men came carrying a paralytic on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus. When they could not find a way to do this because of the crowd, they went up on the roof and lowered him on his mat through the tiles into the middle of the crowd, right in front of Jesus.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."

The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, "Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

Jesus knew what they were thinking and asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . ."

He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home praising God.

Everyone was amazed and gave praise to God. They were filled with awe and said, "We have seen remarkable things today."


In my reading and prayer today I wanted to share something that would bless my readers. In that I read this passage which always amazes me as Jesus forgives some one's sin and is rebuked for it. Jesus knows the heart of man and the darkness that dwells there. He asks a question which in all honesty I am not sure of the answer... "Which is easier: to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up and walk'?"

Maybe it is the translation from Greek to English and in that we lose something.

I rarely read commentaries... I may read a theological book yet unlike in my younger days when I would pour hours into commentaries I found most the time they really give me much insight... That is not bragging, but more that often I find that the commentary may point somethings out yet the "thing" I am looking for they do not touch.

For some reason I turned to Henry's Concise Commentary which stated:

17-26 How many are there in our assemblies, where the gospel is preached, who do not sit under the word, but sit by! It is to them as a tale that is told them, not as a message that is sent to them. Observe the duties taught and recommended to us by the history of the paralytic. In applying to Christ, we must be very pressing and urgent; that is an evidence of faith, and is very pleasing to Christ, and prevailing with him. Give us, Lord, the same kind of faith with respect to thy ability and willingness to heal our souls. Give us to desire the pardon of sin more than any earthly blessing, or life itself. Enable us to believe thy power to forgive sins; then will our souls cheerfully arise and go where thou pleasest.

I do like what Henry has to say, yet I still felt unsatisfied. I see that we are to press in to Jesus who will give us favor and will heal our souls... and sometimes our bodies. Yet, the point I see missed is that Jesus want us to live in a way that enacts forgiveness on others. The teachers and religious leaders of the taught that only God can forgive sins... and Jesus shows them that He the man, (yes God in flesh, but still a man) can and will forgive the sins of others. The title "Son of Man was the human title of Jesus... it was not a reference to His deity... He does show that He is as able as God to forgive others.

In that I see we need to beseech God for the forgiveness of others also.

Later in Luke 4:36-37 Jesus teaches more on the topic of forgiveness...

Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Part of our salvation is giving away the forgiveness we have been given.

Jesus gives grave warning in a parable to those who choose not to live a life of active forgiveness...

Matthew 18:21-35

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"

Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

"The servant fell on his knees before him. `Be patient with me,' he begged, `and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. `Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, `Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt.

When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. "Then the master called the servant in. `You wicked servant,' he said, `I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

My prayer is that one will seek and find the forgiveness God offers at the Cross of Jesus... and in that find a new life of walking in that forgiveness by the Power of the Resurrection... that you the reader be brought and immersed into a deep understanding of the forgiveness of God.

I pray this also for myself for I know I fall short in giving away the forgiveness God gave me. I have come to learn that I cannot forgive others in my own strength. In these short comings one must fall on the merciful grace of God and by Him and through Him in the person of Faith in Christ, walk out our salvation... Trusting God to be the One who forgives others in and through you.

Blessings

iggy

John MacArthur teaches(?) us who killed Jesus...

Interesting to me that the plan of salvation was of the Father and did not originate in the hearts and minds of men... but in the heart and mind of the Father!

John asserts that the Crucifixion was a "man" thing... that Jesus died because the Jews felt threatened as He taught against their "religion"... that is furthest from the truth... it was because he taught with authority and challenged them to return TO THEIR RELIGION and why it was given for. The issue was that they kept the legalities and missed the Spirit behind the Law. (Matt 23:23) The Jewish leaders hated Jesus, yes, not because He taught against their religion, but because Jesus taught with authority. (Mark 1:22)

John negates that it was the Father gave His Son... it was that Jesus gave His own life willingly! It was that Jesus died because of His obedience to the Father.

John distorts the true gospel with antisemitic teachings... and that is truly sad.

Scriptures to back my points.

Matt 20:28 "...the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Matt 27: 50. And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 19: 10-11 "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

Again, Jesus states this pretty clearly...

This was the plan from the Father as I stated...

Romans 14:9. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

MacArthur denied in this interview that the Father had this planned and foretold in scripture...

1 Cor 15: 3-6. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers.

Hebrews 5:7-10. During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.


Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Notice that it was Christs own obedience to the Father's plan that killed Jesus... and it was for our sake...

Romans 6:10-11 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 4: 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Here is the last verse as to why and who killed Jesus... as I stated, it was the plan of the Father from the begining and Jesus laid His own life down... willingly out of obedience to the Father and to fulfill scripture.

Philippians 2: 5-11 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If this is the type of teaching one gets out of Johnny Mac... I would stay far away from him.

Blessings,
iggy

Newest MacArthurite Value! War!

Disclaimer: This is meant in good humor as the same with the "emerging posters" at team pyro by Phil Johnson. Any resemblance to them is truly not my fault.

John MacArthur Claims Jesus was pro war...

Man, you gotta hear this.... here are some things to look for.

1. Johnny Mac claims Jesus was pro war.

2. Johnny Mac flounders around in his answers or sounds like some sort of drone.

3. Ironically a charismatic (Bob Jones) comes to Johnny Mac's defense! (UPDATE Oct 17/o7: oops! Wrong Bob Jones, this one is the Founder of BJU and is not a Charismatic)

4. This is the worst exegeses of scripture I have ever heard... from Johnny Mac.

5. Johnny Mac claims again that Kingdom of God is only spiritual...

6. When another pastor brings up that Jesus, teaching on the Kingdom taught "blessed are the peacemakers" Johnny refutes him!

It seems that Johnny really can justify and claim the bible teaches anything... he does it right there on Larry King.

Just in case the player does not work here... here is the link to see it on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS3F2YHU7Yc

For a transcript of this conversation click here.

Blessings,

iggy

Prayer and Fasting for Ken... while he mocks me over it!

It is so strange that "war" is at the heart of those in Ken Silva's camp... to the point that even when I state I and others will pray for Ken that God blesses him, Ken uses this as a point and issue to mock me! LOL! You can read it here at CRN. Ken Silva Will Be Blessed Next Week!

I will continue to seek Jesus' way and pray for my enemies...

"An emerging church nemesis of mine named Carlos Shelton (aka "iggy") has called for a day of prayer and fasting for me in order that God might set me free from…ah, well–whatever it is that he personally dislikes about me."

(Note: Ken is not my declared enemy or nemesis, as I have never declared him an enemy... maybe a confused brother in Christ who sees he speaks in the "anger of the Lord"... IOW he has declared he is my enemy. Ken has judged and condemned me as not saved and an apostate false teacher. The only Nemesis Ken has is in his own fantasies.)

I will also state that it is interesting to me that Ken declares condemnation on me and others in the Name of Jesus, while the Bible states clearly:

Romans 8: 1-2
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2. because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."

Note also that on my discussion forum there are many different people in which the "emerging group" is minority. It seems that there though we all get along (for the most part). Also, iggyROCKS! plays much of the artists that CRN, Slice of Laodicea and such are against... and some that they also endorse! It seems again that it is not doctrine but style that is the issue...

I will still pray for Ken and if you are for him or against him please join in our prayer and fasting for Ken to be blessed... the only catch is... either way Ken will be humbled by God to receive it. Humility is a good thing in the Kingdom of God so that is not a threat at all... unless Ken decided to continue in his pride and forsake the blessings of God for his own way.

Remember Ken has declared to be the mouth piece of God... he claims he speaks for God as God is angry with us all that do not agree with Ken.

"Since Christ gave it to me, then I say, the Lord be praised…. Have these people ever considered that the anger coming through me as a pastor-teacher sent by the Lord just might not actually be my own?"

I still wonder at that comment as I see in Hebrews God's word states:

Hebrews 1: 1-2
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

I do not see Ken's name in that verse, do you?

Note also Ken by stating what he has negates "cessasionism" which is what is taught in the "team pyro" so it would seem that Ken being a modern day prophet runs against the teachings of Frank Turk.

If you think that you want to join me in this time of prayer and fasting on Tuesday the 28th of August, email me. iggy@wwdb.org

I will declare peace in the Name of the Prince of Peace, in this so called "truth war". I am standing on the Word of God as our Lord taught:

Luke 6:

27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you. "

Ken can call me whatever he wants... I still intend to pray ony for God to truly bless Ken in His full abundance.

BTW I actually do like Ken... no matter what he states otherwise... I mean... I am setting side a day to pray for him...

Blessings,
iggy

Related links:

Link 1

Link 2

~ emerging thought in Montana ~: Ken Silva will be blessed next week!

Ken Silva Will Be Blessed Next Week!

How crazy this has gotten...

Here is a link to Bob Hyatt, who is one of my favorite Calvinists... and of the emerging conversation...

Rick (another one of my favorite Calvinists though is not "emerging" at this point) and Bob go head to head with Frank Turk of Team Pyro over the posters they created...


Interesting to me is that Frank, Bob and Rick... are all on the same team and yet, Frank sees that he is not hurting anyone and wants someone to stand up to them... meaning the Pryoteam of "bullies". (Hey Frank admitted he was! LOL!)

I did make a few but I guess I have not been noticed... (BTW: my posters are not meant to be mean spirited, they come out of my experience in dealing with those in that crowd... if they resemble them... well that is not my fault is it?)

Blessed?
iggy

Ken Silva will be blessed next week!

I've decided that Tuesday the 28th of August will be the day.

Please join us to pray and fast for Ken Silva to be blessed of God and in the greater hope to end this so called Truth War...

"Blessed are the peace makers." ~ Jesus The Messiah

Blessings,
iggy

More on a day or prayer and fasting for ken Silva

This last week I have been praying about how to do the day of prayer and fasting for Ken Silva.

Originally the idea is that whether one is for him or sees that what he is doing is harming the Body of Christ, that we all pray a prayer of blessing.

The reasoning is that Jesus taught us to do so.

Luke 6: 27-31

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.”

Ken has decided to hate others and curse them… and in that mistreat them. I intend that Ken be blessed…

Here is the kicker on all this. If you agree with Ken then you have nothing to lose! In fact pray for him to be blessed immensely! I am in full agreement as for one to be blessed, from God they must be humbles by God to receive the blessings.

I am sincere in that I want Ken to be blessed… and I pray in all earnest that he receives the fullness of God’s best for him.

As far as a date to do this. I have not decided on one. In fact I sense that if I did pick one, someone will say I am being a hypocrite and showy in that I am letting everyone know I am doing this, yet I see a good thing in our uniting in this.

So, I am still praying on that note… yet I think at least this far I see next week that maybe we all can set aside a day and fast and pray for God to bless Ken Silva who has declared that many of us are his enemy and also that he is at war against our God… (Ken has stated that I am not saved and serve a different god… I may agree in the last part of that as I think I serve a different God from the one of wrath, war and hate that Ken seems to declare is sovereign.)

If you think that you want to join me in this and want to pick a specific date, email me. iggy@wwdb.org

Blessings,
iggy

Back from the Smoking Section...

I am back!

It was smoking up there at Flathead Lake... as there were quite a few fires up in that area that were burning. Seely Lake was probably the worst hit. (We did not go there).

I had hoped to get much more fishing in yet, we had some relatives up from California that were staying with us so did a bit more sightseeing than we would have... and the guy who ran the Lodge seemed to not want to let us out on the boat... he kept saying a storm was coming and then the lake would be smooth as glass... then when we were able to go, I think the waves were at their biggest and it was too wavy to fish. In fact we had only a short time to run out on the lake then come back as our relatives wanted to go out also! When they came back, the lake seemed calmer and others wanted to use the boat... so though I heard the guy who ran the lodge caught around 30 fish in one day, I caught a measly little perch that was not even big enough to keep... so... as far as a "fishing trip" it was a bust for me. (Though it seems most fishing trips with rare exception are a bust for me LOL!)

The cabin was great, plenty of room for 7 people and two kids. I did get a little writing done, but found no Internet cafe's

I did have a few thoughts about the Ken Silva day of prayer and fasting. I will comment on that in another post either today of tomorrow... right now, I need to muster up the strength and desire to go in to work... which is a bit hard after a week off!

Blessings,
iggy

A Planned day of prayer and fasting for Ken Silva... yep I'm serious!

A planned day of prayer and fasting for Ken Silva... yep I'm serious!



Ken was recently written about in Christianity today... CRN.info got the scoop. Which with Ken's comment...

"Since Christ gave it to me, then I say, the Lord be praised…. Have these people ever considered that the anger coming through me as a pastor-teacher sent by the Lord just might not actually be my own?"


It got me thinking... I am convinced that Ken has gone off the deep end. He needs serious prayer. I am asking that you take this week to pray about it (as I will be gone fishing!) then contact me and let's get a day set up to set it aside for prayer and fasting for Ken Silva.

Blessings,
iggy

Gone Fishing... be back in a week...

I have gone fishing up at Flathead lake... I will be back in a week... but may drop in if I find an Internet cafe' or something.

Be Blessed,
iggy

MacArthurite Values: More Fun!

(Update: Please join me in ending this "war"... join myself and others in a day of fasting and praying for Ken Silva Tuesday the 28th of August.)

Here are some more links for more info:

Link 1
Link 2

MacArthurite Values: Love your Enemies?

Dan Kimball responds to his critics

At CRNinfo Dan Kimball responded to his critics... again...

Read it hear.

Note in the comments the ever gracious Ken Silva states:

"So it’s all quite vague to me when there are no clear answers forthcoming as to how this fits into what Dr. Walter Martin so often called the historic orthodox Christian Church."

It seems no matter what or how detailed the "orthodox"definition an emerging person is... it never satisfied "the Ken".


Blessings,
iggy

MacArthurite Values

SOLA FIDE (Faith Alone) pt 2

SOLA FIDE (Faith Alone)

Justification is by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone. In justification Christ's righteousness is imputed to us as the only possible satisfaction of God's perfect justice.

We deny that justification rests on any merit to be found in us, or upon the grounds of an infusion of Christ's righteousness in us, or that an institution claiming to be a church that denies or condemns sola fide can be recognized as a legitimate church.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of all the topics say that of the Person of Jesus Christ Grace is by far my favorite. Yet, within that very statement I cannot escape that Jesus Christ is the embodiment of Grace itself if not the very Personification of Grace manifest. (That sounds rather pious and highfalutin yet I am a bit without vocabulary to unpack that as I desire).

Grace is taught by some to be in types… Common and special Grace. They claim that there is one grace that God has for creation that basically cares for it… and the other is the Grace that saves… To that I say bull-pucky!

There is but one Grace, and that Grace is Our Lord and Savior. It was through Him that all creation came. Jesus being full of Grace and truth was the very filter through all creation passed that made all things “good”. Grace abounded in all things as God was to be known in the very creation itself as the first chapter of Romans tells us. But it was man who choosing to worship creation instead of the Creator that we see that even in this perversion, Grace abounded as God, who is Holy and Just, showed mercy instead and let these fallen creatures live though they deserved swift punishment.

God is perfectly Just and in that could have uncreated all things as easy as He spoke it all into existence.

Grace was there before creation for Jesus being full of grace and truth was in the Father before all creation and Grace will be forever as God is eternal.

To divide Grace into “parts” misses that there is a flow and unity that comes from the very first spoken words of God, which were the first “words” of the conversation that would begin full of grace and truth as God spoke the things of creation into existence, and it is even now that Grace holds back the wrath of God for it is by Christ we are saved.

As we come to Jesus and are placed into His Body, we are then immersed in His Grace and Truth and in that are filled and overflowing with His Grace. We define mercy as not getting what we deserve and Grace as getting what we do not deserve, yet that is just a thimble of the reality that grace is. It is a great place to start, yet in its fullness Grace is yet to be realized until the Resurrection and all are set to right, and then Jesus hands all things back to the Father, and God is all in all…
The Bible teaches us that it is by Grace through faith that we are saved not of works that any man should boast. It is that we realize that we are beyond the scope to be so filled with the rightness of God, that we too flow with Grace and truth and need to be rescued from our very selves.

We must see that without God’s grace we are unable to satisfy our own desires, let alone satisfy all the holiness needed to be accepted by God as His equal, for that is the desire of the fallen man, that he be equal with the One who created him. A man must find that he is bankrupt of all hope in himself to save himself, and now, put all hope into One who has fulfilled all that God required to please Him… His Son, Jesus Christ. We have but one faith, and that is in the Hope Who is Jesus Christ who died, was buried, rose again and ascended to the Father and now sits in Glory and mediates all things on our behalf.

May the Grace of God overflow and overwhelm you today!

iggy

The mystic ladder of Divine love, according to Saint Bernard and Saint Thomas Step three

3. The third step of the ladder of love is that which causes the soul to work and gives it fervour so that it fails not. Concerning this the royal Prophet says: ’ Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord, for in His commandments he is eager to labour greatly.’ Wherefore if fear, being the son of love, causes within him this eagerness to labour,[Lit., ‘makes in him this labour of eagerness.’]
what will be done by love itself? On this step the soul considers great works undertaken for the Beloved as small; many things as few; and the long time for which it serves Him as short, by reason of the fire of love wherein it is now burning. Even so to Jacob, though after seven years he had been made to serve seven more, they seemed few because of the greatness of his love.

Now if the love of a mere creature could accomplish so much in Jacob, what will love of the Creator be able to do when on this third step it takes possession of the soul? Here, for the great love which the soul bears to God, it suffers great pains and afflictions because of the little that it does for God; and if it were lawful for it to be destroyed a thousand times for Him it would be comforted. Wherefore it considers itself useless in all that it does and thinks itself to be living in vain. Another wondrous effect produced here in the soul is that it considers itself as being, most certainly, worse than all other souls: first, because love is continually teaching it how much is due to God;[Lit., ‘how much God merits.’] and second, because, as the works which it here does for God are many and it knows them all to be faulty and imperfect, they all bring it confusion and affliction, for it realizes in how lowly a manner it is working for God, Who is so high. On this third step, the soul is very far from vainglory or presumption, and from condemning others. These anxious effects, with many others like them, are produced in the soul by this third step; wherefore it gains courage and strength from them in order to mount to the fourth step, which is that that follows.

Here's more proof of Ken's implosion and the fruit of John MacArthur

Ken shows us more of his implosion
An Idea Concerning Controversy on the Pyro Posters for the Emerging Church

Here are some quotes from the "Grace to you" team. You know those guys who follow John MacArthur showing their version of grace, mercy and love to those who they deem not worthy!



Truly this poster in particular is a projection of themselves. It shows that "masks" are very important and even more than what is underneath (the fruit of Johnny Mac's Ministry) is "meaner and scarier that you thought!"

The most interesting "comment" is that last two. One about a mom whose young child flicks her so she "flicks" her young child back HARDER... again I don't remember "flicking" anyone. I do remember that Johnny Mac has declared a "truth war" (I am still trying to figure out if he is against truth of for it LOL!)

Ken makes sure he gets the last line in, yet it seems that really all this looks like is a bully who got mad because a young Christian turned the other cheek.

The creator of these posters is credited to Phil Johnson who is the executive Director of Grace to You, a Christian tape and radio ministry featuring the preaching ministry of John MacArthur. Phil has been closely associated with John MacArthur since 1981 and edits most of MacArthur's major books.

This might have been funny if it wasn't so juvenile.

Below are the "mature", "Grace to you" Christian's comments.

Be Blessed,

iggy

centuri0n said...
Boy, that's gotta sting.But, sadly, it didn't bring anyone to Jesus, so, you know, "like ministry", dude. You should do more ministry rather than bringing me down.Now I'm going to play in the sunshine where it's warm and stuff, and you can just go be a rain cloud someplace else. Jesus hates haters, man. 12:59 PM, August 04, 2007

centuri0n said...
Isn't that Mensa Reject on the left on the second one? My left. 1:00 PM, August 04, 2007

Grace said...
Exactly what I was thinking.I suppose it's unloving for me to call their reaction hypocrisy. But it's my honest opinion. So what do emergents value more: tolerance or transparency? 1:43 PM, August 04, 2007

SolaMeanie said...
"I'm shocked..SHOCKED..that there is satire going on in here!" (Interrupted by waiter) "Your next tweak, sir..." (hands poster to Phil)"Thank you very much. Clear the room immediately!"**With thanks to Claude Rains and Casablanca** 1:57 PM, August 04, 2007

IronWill said...
Hilarious! 2:07 PM, August 04, 2007

Libbie said...
You can't work a waaaambulance into this somewhere?Now, now boys, it's not big and it's not clever.Oh, alright then, it is. 2:47 PM, August 04, 2007

Ken Silva said...
You know, I have to wonder here. The Christ followers in the emerging church are all about engaging culture, hanging out with sinners, and going to the pub to discuss Jesus.Well I wonder, why don't they just reimagine that there's a hip new stand-up comic performing at one of these pubs and she is using these lines in her act. Pretty funny stuff. 9:03 PM, August 04, 2007

terriergal said...
Another couple of brilliant ones.The more I talk to emergents, the more dizzy I get trying to keep up with jumping trains of thought. Lord, open their eyes, if it be your will.Certainly this great delusion social gospel, seeker-sensitive, emergent, mysticism all converging in one homogenous mish-mash is serving to purify His church...usually outside the four walls of the building.I don't know if my comment at CRN.info and analysis (they actually created a site just for psychoanalyzing the people at CRN? Wow...that's flattering!) will get posted, but here is what I sent to them: Comment from Paula Time: August 5, 2007, 12:04 am“I sometimes feel sorry for the watch doggies. I mean, if I realized that my way of doing church was going to be obsolete in a matter of years with the culture shift taking place around the globe. ”Then… what? could you complete the sentence, please? isn’t this kind of like the guy in Luke 18 saying “Boy I’m glad I’m not like THAT guy…” 10:11 PM, August 04, 2007

ddd said...
'my way of doing church is going obselete'Heh, if you can't convince people from Scripture, just pretend you are a Prophet (capital P) ... Eh, wait, you mean Scripture contains more than narrative? 7:04 AM, August 05, 2007

Everyday Mommy said...
The emergents remind me of my five year-old. We were playing the other day and he thought it was fun to flick mom on the head. I finally flicked him back and he yelled, "Hey! That hurt!" 7:11 AM, August 05, 2007

Ken Silva said...
Everyday Mommy made me laugh right out loud...
1:16 PM, August 05, 2007

New Posters From the People of "Grace to You"

Interestingly as i look over these new posters... I can't help but want them to make more! I mean with each one we see a spiralling down in that they reveal each dark chamber of their own heart and their own doctrine.

Remember these are the "Grace to you" people doing this! Grace to you... seems to have become a mocking ground to put down others.

So, let them keep pumping them out. They show they care little for truth and even less for compassion and have lost sight completely of this "Grace to You".

You see they are upset that they were responded to by these more accurate posters.

It seems it is only "Grace to You" if you agree with John MacArthur. Otherwise it is just a poke in your eye.

This is really sad and people need to start praying against this sort of harm against the Body of Christ.


Be Blessed,
iggy

(Update: Dan, we do notice things like that you turn off the "comments links" on your page. It seems a little dishonest, but expected. )

Matt 26: 67-68
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"

Romans 8: 16-17
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Matt 5: 38-48
""You have heard that it was said, `Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
"You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. "

The Ken Silva Implode continues... so pray for him!

At Ken Silva's alternate universe called CRN, Ken seems to be getting worse and worse... in his most recent post Revealing Details about the Emerging Church and Semi-Pelagianism Ken calls everyone as many names as he can... and washes everyone in one article (?) with his mad spittle. (Can I have a towel please)

He is still obsessed with semi pelagianism... and it seems his preferential "man-loving" label...


"man-loving semi-pelagian new evangelicals embracing the neo-liberal cult of the Emergent Church" ~ Ken Silva

So I wonder if Ken will ever come out of the closet with the "man loving" obsession he has? = )

The best (? saddest) part is that last paragraph where Ken loses it completely...

"And a word to these man-loving semi-pelagian new evangelicals embracing the neo-liberal cult of the Emergent Church like Rob Bell and Erwin McManus. Rephrasing what was mused elsewhere, when you start yakking on about being "culturally relevant," "missional," and "embrace mystery" etc. it’s like our brain converts anything you say after that into “blah, blah, blah … explore the human spirit, social reformer, rabbis say blah, blah, blah”, and our mind wanders to "why we don’t take you seriously." "


And without the Love, Mercy, and Grace of God everyone is condemned by the Great Ken Silva as he writes people off with a Seinfeldian "blah, blah, blah”.

It seems that to be a "man loving semi pelagian" is worse than ignoring the commandments of our Lord, to love Him and to love one another.


The most interesting part of this exchange is this... Ken actually in a rare occasion gives answers... something he has never done with or for me. I guess just stating to me that I am not "saved" was enough for Ken.

Yet, here is Kens answers and I will add my thoughts in bold.
Ken Silva

Mike,

The noted Christian philosopher and apologist Dr. Francis Schaeffer used to say: "Honest questions deserve honest answers." I believe this as well and so I will respond from a position of no offense taken and no intention of causing any. Setting this upfront due to the limitations of the written language.

You say: "Yes Ken, you and I do seem to be proclaiming very different understandings of the gospel." You may believe me when I say that I do appreciate your candor and respect your sincerity. I now will respond in kind.

You say: "You seem to be following the gospel of John MacArthur (and John Calvin?) while I do my best (though imperfectly) to follow the gospel Jesus proclaimed..." This looks to me as if in your mind there is a divide between "the gospel" of MacArthur and "the gospel" Jesus proclaimed.
But the truth is, I follow no man. The MacArthur reference is simply a current illustrative example of men who proclaim that Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is what is meant by the doctrines of grace. These were proclaimed by the ancient Church long before there ever was a Calvin.

Iggy: Ken has a huge double standard he is expressing here… “But the truth is, I follow no man.” Yet, all emergents are following Tony Jones, Brian McLaren, Rob Bell and in some way Rick Warren would be tossed in by Ken. So the “truth” is that Ken can state “I follow no man” and then state “while I do my best (though imperfectly) to follow the gospel Jesus proclaimed” as if in some contrast all emergents do not do this also!

You point out: "But I wouldn't describe our views as complete 'opposites'." Ah, but they are. I say God alone chooses whom He will save according to His will and grace and nothing whatsoever to do with anything any human being ever does. You say, at least on some level, man cooperates with God. Monergism vs. synergism. Opposites.

Then you say: "I don't deny the central aspects of the gospel you proclaim. I believe in the divinity of Christ, his death and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, and that we can be saved because of his sacrifice. I believe in Heaven and Hell and think that some people do end up in both."

I am purposely trying to be as non-offensive as I know how (really, I am *smile*) but I hope you realize that even Satan himself "believes", and even knows, these things are in fact true. You see, this would actually prove nothing.

Iggy: One of the criticisms of Kenites are that emergents are throwing out the great reformers… in fact there is some very colorful language in how they state this… but I digress. Yet, Ken can wipe clean 1400 years of history and ignore it as he overlooks much that happened before and even after the reformation. Notice also that Ken makes judgmental swipe at Mike’s salvation by stating that “even the devils believe” but in all actuality does not even attempt to answer the question. Ken has stated that he is “obeying God” and that he listens to Gods voice, “I felt led” is a common phrase Ken uses… and in that negates that he is an autobot that just does what God makes him do. Yet, he states that here that “I [Ken] say God alone chooses whom He will save according to His will and grace and nothing whatsoever to do with anything any human being ever does.” No one negates that but as I showed even Ken “at least on some level, man cooperates with God.” Or how can he say that “he felt led” as he does… (if you need references just go to Ken’s Apprising Ministries website put the phrase in his search engine and then search the phrase in all the missives that come up… and see how much as some level Ken “cooperates with God”. One note also is that many of the “leaders” in emergent are Calvinist… so I guess Ken is stating that Calvinists emergents are also semi pelagian… it only shows to the extent of Ken’s ignorance of what emerging is about.

Now, one will say he is talking about salvation… yet, then to use the standard of Ken’s gospel one would judge his fruit and see if he is not cooperating with God, he is not producing his OWN good fruit and thus is not saved. At least that is how I have had it explained and used against me… by people who do not even know me.

Next you go on to say: "IMHO the evangelical gospel is not wrong, just incomplete,..." Being that you are one who believes in synergism you would be able to say this. I, however, left evangelicalism because of its semi-pelagianism and undercutting of God's total sovereignty.

The following is really an all too common misconception concerning the beliefs of those of us who believe the doctrines of grace: "because in addition to all those things I also believe in the present reality of the kingdom of God..." So do we.

iggy: I recommend that Ken listen to John’s statements at The Way of the Master where John states rather clearly that the difference is that their Kingdom is “only spiritual” while most other traditions see the Kingdom as present now, spiritual, and to come in it’s fullness. Listen Now Download it here. (It starts at the 22:44 mark.)

(A side line here point on this notice how they take a small portion of what Brian actually states and twists it to mean something totally other than what Brian states? John then states we are not to give justice here on earth! Note they state that Kingdom is not now here..." The Kingdom is a spiritual Kingdom and we populate it by witnessing to people and preaching the Gospel." This then negates the Resurrection of Jesus as being the first fruits of the Kingdom.)

But here's where we part company: "and that Christ's gospel was less focused on where we go in the afterlife (did you know that Jesus only preaches on the Resurrection once?) and much more on calling people to live in his kingdom way here and now." We are to do all we can to help our fellow man and be good stewards of this world.

Personally I even think we've not done such a good job. That aside, the Bible is quite clear that this "here and now" will be destroyed by fire. God is not recreating THIS heavens and earth; He is preparing (or has prepared) a new heaven and a new earth.
This is why according to Scripture you are wrong when you speculate: "God is not just concerned with forgiving the sins of individual people, he wants to reconcile the whole world (cf. Romans 8:19-21)."

Iggy: Ken misses some interesting nuances. In the New Creation we who are resurrected are not destroyed though the perishable is clothed with imperishable. The New Creation is like that it too is resurrected and purified and made new. What Ken is doing is misunderstanding that we are stating that this world is to be as IT IS in the new creation and that is far from the truth…. Yet, we live here now and we must learn to take care and be good stewards with this planet and its resources. In a sense this earth will be like us, in that it will be purified from corruption and be redeemed at the revealing of the Sons of God. Again, Ken shows a real lack of understanding and is rather trapped in his fundamentalist view of the future of earth in the New Creation. IN his version if the though be carried out. We will not exist and will be annihilated even as those redeemed, and then be completely recreated… the Bible does not state that about mankind, it does not state that about the New Heavens and New Earth.
Ken seems then to negate that God wants to reconcile the whole world… so he does not believe scripture when it states in Romans 8: 19 -24;
“The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.”
Ken is denying that there is more happening in salvation than just getting our own butts into heaven and out of hell… and then says of Mike that God is “just” concerned about getting us saved.

And here is an extension of your earlier misconception: "Social gospel vs. evangelical gospel is not an 'either/or', it's a 'both/and'." The evangelical gospel has actually become your emerging repainted social gospel ala Walter Rauschenbusch. We are not saying that there is no social aspect to Christ's gospel. We are saying it is secondary to Christ's mandate follow His example to seek and save those who are lost.

Iggy: here is the extension alright! I know of not one emergent that sees that Walter Rauschenbusch taught the idea of “social gospel” in a full fleshed out way. In fact, it seems that even if WR got part of it right, he is all wrong… so Ken cannot see that God’s heart is and was always about social reform… or in others words, how we treat other people. Ken again negates the bibles teachings on this in exchange for his “doctrines”.

Isihah 58: 5 -8

“Is this the kind of fast I have chosen, only a day for a man to humble himself? Is it only for bowing one's head like a reed and for lying on sackcloth and ashes? Is that what you call a fast, a day acceptable to the LORD?
"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood? Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.”

You say: "At any rate, you can rest assured that I'm very practiced in considering other points of view and entertaining the possibility that I could be wrong." Mike, I have no reason to doubt your word here. And I don't.

You ask: "How do you think I ended up in the emerging church? I was once very much like you - a Calvinist Baptist minister who thought that his way was the only possible right one." Sincerely and with gentleness; I will say that in my mind you would have just described an apostate.

Iggy: “Sincerely and with gentleness; I will say that in my mind you would have just described an apostate.” With that Ken has called Luther and all the Great Reformers apostates… it is in true Ken style logic… or rather illogical style. Ken here is also admitting he cannot see things from others views. This is also a symptom of what is called “borderline personality disorder”… or the inability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes.


Next you say: "But it was by listening to other points of view, and especially by coming back to the Bible without my Calvinist theological lenses that I began to see things differently." My response is that I personally was saved in an Arminian and Charismatic church. I began believing in synergism.

Long story short; I have zero formal theological training and have never studied Calvinism. My testimony is that by simple private study of the texts of the Bible, God the Holy Spirit led me to believe His monergism and in the doctrines of grace. It was only after this that I went and began my studies of theology.

Iggy: This is similar to my own testimony, yet Ken seems to think that only what he has read and come to believe is right… this is a logical fallacy as without some other tools one can come out with some bad theology as evident in Ken.

Then you point out: "I will take the time to entertain the possibility that your way may still be right and that I may in the wrong." Mike, I think we know this is really not seriously very likely. That's fine, you've made your stand. I disagree with you, but please know that I do respect your defense of it.

Iggy: Ken is now omniscient and can read minds and hearts of other men? LOL!


And finally you ask: "But I wonder, can you say the same? Will you actually, seriously and honestly consider whether you may be wrong in your theology and people in the emerging church may actually have some truth to teach you?" Honestly, absolutely no. I have also made my stand.

In 1994, well before their even was an emerging church, I was still Arminian in theology and planted Rock Springs Mission Church. I was doing the "emerging thing" even before you. Attempting to be "relevant" and "missional" with hair down the middle of my back and my secular rock band coming out of the church. Played in bars, hung out with sinners...well, you know.

Doesn't work in producing real converts to Christianity, because while the sympathy to the plights of our fellow man is obviously sincere, in the end the version of the gospel - the one you currently espouse - is deficient. Through my studies I began to see the reason why; and this was long before I looked into the Reformers: Salvation is through the grace of God alone; by the faith alone given to us by God, in Christ alone.

Two very radically different views of the Christian faith. Only one could be right, there is no middle ground here. There isn't supposed to be.

Mike, I do appreciate your willingness to dialogue. So as an offering of good will, and out of respect, I have tried to be thorough enough to do justice to your well thought-out response.

Knowing we are both very busy I envision this to be the last I'm going to say here. And I also say shalom.

Iggy: This last part shows again Ken has no grasp of emerging. He claims to have tried it but bore no fruit… hmmm maybe that was the problem Ken it was ALL YOU.
I see that even when we as emergents agree we are taken done some dark corridor of Ken’s mind and proven wrong no matter how bad the logical leaps and twistings of what is actually true.
I have in my life changed often as I read and discovered the truths in Scripture. I still do not see myself as having arrived as one such as Ken.
I do not want one to think I am doing all this out of vengeance or anger; in fact I love Ken… for some strange reason God has placed him on my heart to pray for. I ask that you take a moment to do so also. This is not a battle of flesh and blood and Ken is not my enemy. He is a man, though a bit confused about the great Grace and freedom of our Lord… loves Jesus.

Blessings,
iggy

Spurgeon: The Liberal Emergent against War.

Spurgeon on War

"Whatsoever things are honest, true, kind, humane, and moral, may reckon our aid. WE are on the side of temperance, and therefore on the side of the limitation of the abominable traffic which is ruining our country; and we are opposed to all that licenses vice among men, or allows cruelty to animals. We are up to the hilt advocates of peace, and we earnestly war against war. I wish that Christian men would insist more and more on the unrighteousness of war, believing that Christianity means no sword, no cannon, no bloodshed, and that if a nation is driven to fight in its own defense, Christianity stands by to weep and to intervense as soon as possible, and not to join in the cruel shouts which celebrate an enemy's slaughter. Let us always be on the side of right. Today, then, my brethren, I beg you to join with me in seeking renewal. Now is the time for a man to buckle on his harness, and bestir himself.

---Charles Haddon Spurgeon, An All Around Ministry, "A New Departure", page 153.

The Wittenburg Door Interview: Brian McLaren

The Wittenburg Door Interview
Brian McLaren

By Becky Garrison

May/June 2007

He's controversial. He's heralded by some and accused of being apostate by others. Brian McLaren is unapologetic. He says he believes in the life, death on the Cross, and triumphant resurrection of Jesus Christ. Meanwhile, this pastor, author, speaker, and networker is listed as one of America's 25 most influential evangelicals by Time magazine. McLaren got there primarily on the strength of more than a dozen challenging (some would say danged near heretical) books that have resonated with millions of readers, including The Secret Message of Jesus: Uncovering the Truth That Could Change Everything; A Generous Orthodoxy, The Last Word and the Word After That: Faith Doubt and a New Kind of Christianity; A New Kind of Christian: A Tale of Two Friends on a Spiritual Journey; A Search for What is Real: Finding Faith and others.
Sinner, seeker, saint? One interview won't decide it. But here are Brian's words. From here, it's up to you. (Log on to www.brianmclaren.net for all things Brian.)



WITTENBURG DOOR: First off, how would you respond to those who say that you're a proponent of a theology that has abandoned the cross?

BRIAN MCLAREN: I can't imagine why anyone would say I have abandoned the cross!

DOOR: Some do ...

MCLAREN: Sheesh. I guess this kind of thing would be coming from people who claim that the gospel can be reduced to one theory of atonement.

Read the full article here.