Friday, August 24, 2007

John MacArthur teaches(?) us who killed Jesus...



Interesting to me that the plan of salvation was of the Father and did not originate in the hearts and minds of men... but in the heart and mind of the Father!

John asserts that the Crucifixion was a "man" thing... that Jesus died because the Jews felt threatened as He taught against their "religion"... that is furthest from the truth... it was because he taught with authority and challenged them to return TO THEIR RELIGION and why it was given for. The issue was that they kept the legalities and missed the Spirit behind the Law. (Matt 23:23) The Jewish leaders hated Jesus, yes, not because He taught against their religion, but because Jesus taught with authority. (Mark 1:22)

John negates that it was the Father gave His Son... it was that Jesus gave His own life willingly! It was that Jesus died because of His obedience to the Father.

John distorts the true gospel with antisemitic teachings... and that is truly sad.

Scriptures to back my points.

Matt 20:28 "...the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Matt 27: 50. And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 19: 10-11 "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"
Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

Again, Jesus states this pretty clearly...

This was the plan from the Father as I stated...

Romans 14:9. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

MacArthur denied in this interview that the Father had this planned and foretold in scripture...

1 Cor 15: 3-6. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers.

Hebrews 5:7-10. During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.


Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Notice that it was Christs own obedience to the Father's plan that killed Jesus... and it was for our sake...

Romans 6:10-11 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 4: 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Here is the last verse as to why and who killed Jesus... as I stated, it was the plan of the Father from the begining and Jesus laid His own life down... willingly out of obedience to the Father and to fulfill scripture.

Philippians 2: 5-11 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



If this is the type of teaching one gets out of Johnny Mac... I would stay far away from him.

Blessings,
iggy

6 comments:

DAVE N said...

Context is key. You are listening to a short sound bite from the Larry King show from December 24, 2006. What was the context of the show and the question directed toward John? This is in response the Mel Gibson's movie - the question was who killed Jesus? (as it relates to the film and why) For a complete Johnny Mac view on the crucifixion, I suggest you read his book "The Murder of Jesus" before making the assumption you are making -from a Larry King Show sound bite in response to the Gibson film. In his book, he is very clear at explaining that it was in fact God who murdered His Son for the forgiveness of sin. An excerpt can be found here: http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/mac4.htm

Or you can buy the book here: http://www.amazon.com/Murder-Jesus-John-MacArthur/dp/0849943620

You said, "John distorts the true gospel with antisemitic teachings" How? Do you believe the Jews were right in their faith? I certainly hope you are not publically stating John MacArthur disorts the true gospel from this Larry King clip alone. Do you have anything to back up that strong accusation?

You said, "MacArthur denied in this interview that the Father had this planned and foretold in scripture..." Remember, this is a TV interview with a panel of 6 people, each getting about 1 minute to speak! Also, this interview was about the Gibson movie! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! (not yelling, just caps for emphasis)

You said, "If this is the type of teaching one gets out of Johnny Mac... I would stay far away from him." I suggest you research your sources prior to making comments such as this. John MacArthur is one of the most respected evangelical leaders and expositors of our day. I suggest any of his books or study Bible. OR for sermon transcripts on many topics or passages: http://www.biblebb.com

I certainly hope this helps clarify for you. Thank you for the time you've taken to read. I pray that you will read and think through these important truths and love as Christ would want us to love.

iggy said...

Dave N,

What you are accusing me of John MacArthur has done to a whole bunch of people....


I did a post where John did another show (granted it was a short one also) where he did this very thing to Brian McLaren.

John also slanders John Anderson... I did a post on that also...

Also, this is the language that John uses... and those at team pyro are using... so please no lectures until you clean you own house and get some planks removed.


I was listening to these with a open mind... yet, what I heard what what he stated.. if you think he did not mean what he stated... then I think then you need address that with a bit more "context" of your own to back up your assertion... I have John's own words.

John is not promoting murder and I never stated that... he IS promoting war... have you seen his new book? Did you not listen to these two out-take interviews?

So then according to your John is a liar and being dishonest as he is stating things rather clear here adn in the other post... or he is confused and has not idea what he is stating.

Note also I never critiqued his presentation of the "gospel".

Also, even more so as John has written a book about the subject why then did he then misrepresent his OWN view and teachings?

I see this in a lot of places from the people who follow John MacArthur especially from team pryo... who seem to on one hand be against modernism, then use modernism to attack the emerging church... not to mention all the slanderous posters they are producing without a care to accuracy!

LOL!

I think that you need to realize that this is a one sided war... you have a "little general" who decided that all these people who do not agree with HIS (JM's) teachings are not saved and are against God and His Truth...

Do you realize i have over 600 posts and over 280 are about Truth!?

So, please go to John MacArthur to get out there and set the record straight or stop saying what he does not mean... from who he states and from his praxis I thing I am very accurate...

I also want you to understand I am not saying any of this in anger nor do I have any hatred toward John MacArthur and I have never stated that he is not a brother in Christ... unlike what he states about others pretty regularly... and his followers have stated about me very often...

Be Blessed,
iggy

DAVE N said...

Iggy,

I'm not sure why, but you have avoided the context issue - which is the reason why I commented. In fact, you avoided the issue altogether by your comment, "Also, even more so, as John has written a book about the subject, why then did he misrepresent his OWN view and teachings?" The CNN show was about the Mel Gibson movie. Then, you slam John about him misrepresenting his beliefs - again, context - movie about the crucifixion...I believe you are avoiding the issue deliberately. I believe you are smarter than avoiding the real issues "accidently". I think you know what the truth is in this instance, and have deliberately and maliciously taken this out of context. (among others I have read here) I have read a few of your postings, and they all have a very poor / malicious tone to them. It seems to me that you are an angry person who uses this as a means to vent your frustration - granted, to yourself because I don't see many comments. If the guys at pyro bother you, quit reading. Why do you do something that irritates you? This week you have had 2 comments - one from yourself. This week Pyro had 527 comments. Doesn't that tell you something? Well, I'm going to follow my own advice. I am going to quit reading this blog. I certainly hope you realize what you are doing and stop.

Grace to you. (pun intended)

iggy said...

Dave N,

I think you missed that I did address the context issue. That since John HAS written a book on the topic he need to not then say something that is NOT what he means. HE HAS changed his own context.

Also, I think you further prove my point with your signature.


"Grace to you. (pun intended)"

Which I see is pandemic throughout the New MacArthurism... that one gets "grace to you" only if you believe like John MacArthur!

I hope that was in jest and good humor but from my experience this is so..



Even worse if this is in the context you are stating!!! as Mel Gibson was also accused of saying the "Jews killed Jesus".

Why do you miss then the real issue that John is not stating what he truly believes?

It seems that John can take others out of context or take even less of a sound-byte than I have hear and rant and rave about that person being a heretic... and yet when I even give his own words and post them, I am accused of misrepresentation? LOL!

If anyone then is guilty of misrepresenting anyone, John here, is guilty of misrepresenting the truth of scirpture and his own position if it is as you state.

As far as your continue reading this blog, that is your choice. I am not the only one that has heard John is saying here and on the other post on "war"...

You think I am an angry person?


Actually I am a joyful person and I celebrate my faith...

It seems that if one does not like to see their favorite person held to a standard they have set up and fall short of, then I hear "whining"...

I heard what John MacArthur stated IN THIS CONTEXT AND FORUM and then stated the biblical truth of the Gospel.

Do disagree that the plan of salvation including the Cross was the Father will being carried out? Do you disagree with the scriptures I quoted that show this to be true?

BTW that was the point of the post... to teach the truth that salvation was all of God and not of man... that God's plan was to send His Son to die.

And John states that Jesus taught against their religion... which again is not true! Jesus never taught against the Law. He fulfilled it.

Do you disagree with that?

Again, John needs to then speak what he really believes and not say falsehoods...

THe real question is why are you defending him teaching falsehoods if you know that he knows the truth?

Grace to you... (In its full meaning with no pun attached)
iggy

DAVE N said...

You said you did address the context issue... I cannot even find the context on your blog post - commenting on the Mel Gibson movie. John never wrote a book about the Mel Gibson movie - which the show was about. Too bad John didn't have more time to address the question more thoroughly - addressing what he has written a book about. The Romans executed Christ, but it was actually God who killed His Son. John is crystal clear about this in his book - not sure why you are having difficulty understanding that. I think if you actually had a more exhaustive understanding of this issue from John's perspective, you would not be so confused. A little reading might help - rather than taking a 30 sec clip about a movie and claiming that John didn't tell the truth or that he is distorting the truth. No offense, but it doesn't seem very logical to jump to such a conclusion... You bring up other issues that clearly show your anger - I never brought these up... not sure why you did if you are not angry about them...

It seems a little odd when you say, "John distorts the true gospel", and then you say that you have "never critiqued his presentation of the gospel." It seems to be a bit contradictory. Wouldn't you agree?

I would be more than happy to disagree with John if you could prove it Biblically. I have not read anything close to that here on this blog.

You said, "BTW that was the point of the post... to teach the truth that salvation was all of God and not of man... that God's plan was to send His Son to die." Couldn't you do that without using John's quote about a movie. You would have been better to read John's book like I suggested, rather than using a quote about a movie. John is very clear about the Murder of Jesus in his book about that. BTW, is what John said false? The Romans did kill Jesus didn't they? There is much more that John says regarding your point. Unfortunately, you are taking a sound bite from a talk show that isn't about your point - that is MY point.

"You think I am an angry person?"
Yes.

"Again, John needs to then speak what he really believes and not say falsehoods... " What falsehood did he speak? The Romans did kill Jesus. The fact that he was given 30 seconds to answer the question, and you rip him apart for what he didn't say?...hmmmm

"THe real question is why are you defending him teaching falsehoods if you know that he knows the truth?" I'm not sure I am defending him in particular. I'm more directing my comments toward yourself, not speaking the truth - which is very obvious.

It certainly does seem like a "Truth War" going on. For an outsider, it makes it "Hard to Believe" what is true and what is false. Maybe Larry King could devote a show with you and John debating "truth". Then, "Twelve Ordinary Men" could decide who wins the debate. These twelve men of course should be mature men, married to "Twelve Extraordinary Women". Nevertheless, whether this happens or not, "Because the Time is Near", I must draw this comment to a close. I hope you are "Safe In the Arms of God". I hope you search for the truth and do not find "Fools Gold", so that you are "Saved Without a Doubt". My ending encouragement to you is to "Live an Uncompromising Life".

Grace to You
(whether or not you want to admit it, there is a pun there - although I still do mean it :)

iggy said...

Dave N,

1. I was addressing two different posts here, sorry I did not mention that... I just have so much time in these last few days.... On the other post http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/2007/08/john-macarthur-claim-jesus-was-for-war.html I did not critique his presentation of the Gospel and yes, I did here... thank you for letting me clarify this.


Regardless to the context the point I am making seems lost on you. Maybe not, but it seems that to critique John MacArthur makes one, angry, mean spirited, an apostate, not saved and on and on... I have even been called a pedophile!
In that, I am not an "angry person" as you are asserting... passionate yes!

The contexts means little as John's words seem to speak for himself... In this video, I noticed something as i listened to it again... it seems that John could have stated it was the Father's Plan and not because Jesus taught against the Jews religion (Jesus did not!) and that the Law was about the heart... which I would let slide a bit.

In all this your only comment on those who are slandering the emerging church was that team pryor have a lot of comments in their comment sections... yet reading those (which I really do not do nor do I even care to go to heir site anymore) I bet that most are overwhelmingly approving what they are doing.

Again, I guess you disagree that it was the Father's plan the whole time to send the Son to die for our sins? I think I make my points very biblical...

I think that there IS a war... and this war is more about justifying being able to sin against the clear teachings of the Bible (John MacArthur) as I have had more than my share of hatred tossed my way from that crowd... and those who are earnestly seeking and following to be and learn THE WAY of Jesus. The real difference I the contrast of JM's teaching that is mental assent and a relationship with Jesus who is the Person of Truth incarnate...

I know I have a rough tone, I am an ex biker for crying out loud so speak bluntly at times... I also speak with certainty and confidence in what the Lord has shown me... and I walk in the Grace of our Lord...

I think you need to read much more of my posts to get a truer view of my belief and story... as reading a couple here that are showing the hypocrisy and double speak of the people under John MacArthur is not all I write about.

Search out the series on Romans... or on Grace... I think you might see a different side.

I make no bone about what I see and have experience from the GTY camp... I see them as a mean spirited and hateful group who ignore much of scripture and justify hating one's brother and do nothing more than judge others fruit... and condemning them as THEY see fit... Jesus did not come to condemn the world but to save it... and I see that though we are to use discernment as to who is teaching truth... we are not to condemn them to hell as some there have of me! LOL!

Again, I think that you have brought up the context and still what John MacArthur states stands wanting against the teachings of scripture.

I think if listen to Johns comments again you will hear what i am stating...

Here are the direct quotes:

KING: Who killed him, John?

MACARTHUR: Well, the Romans executed him on the mountain, but they did it under duress and the pressure of Jewish leaders, who hated him, not because of the cure he offered but because of the indictment. I mean, he went to his own town. One of the most riveting portions of the whole New Testament, Luke Chapter 4, he goes to Nazareth, where he grew up, goes back to his synagogue where he attended every Sabbath, he's with his family, his relatives, his friends that he grew up with. He preaches one sermon there, and they try to throw him off a cliff. It wasn't that they didn't want the kingdom of God or salvation or forgiveness or heaven or whatever. They couldn't accept the diagnosis that their religion was not true, that it was not of the heart. And that was the issue that finally drove them to the cross.

KING: I want to see how a Jew reacts to that.


Even Larry picked up on the antisemitism... as he is of Jewish decent! So I do not see how I am off even placed in context.

Here is the source for this.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/mac-lkl6.htm

Agian, go and read it as Larry nails JM and JM has to do some "damge control"!

KING: I want to see how a Jew reacts to that.

MANNING: That was a reaction especially significant to me, that what upset them was that Jesus was open to finding God's presence even among people who were not Jews. And that really shocked them.

CHOPRA: You know, it is great that they did kill him; otherwise we wouldn't have Christianity today. Judas is as important to the plot as Christ is.

KING: Shouldn't Judas be praised?

MACARTHUR: Well, let's go back and say, in the Book of Acts, when Peter preached on Pentecost, he said "whom you killed," to the people, "by the determined council and foreknowledge of God." If you asked who ultimately killed Jesus, God killed Jesus, because he had to put him on the cross for our sins. But that doesn't relieve the people who were involved of culpability.

KING: If he makes the plan, how do the Jews have control of their acts?

CHOPRA: The story of any good plot, implicit allies, explicit enemies. You know, you have to have a Judas in order to have a Christ.

MACARTHUR: There are secondary causes, and that's human. The primary cause is God.

KING: How does a Jew react to that? You killed him.

PRAGER: No. That's exactly it. I know you're not blaming me. He's not blaming me. He's blaming me. He doesn't like my politics. OK.

KING: I like you.

PRAGER: I know you do. And I appreciate it. It's mutual. Listen, this is key. I have no issue. No Jew will have an issue with saying Jewish leaders of the time, along with the Romans, conspired to kill him, even though the Jews couldn't do it alone, they didn't have the death penalty or crucifixion. Plus the fact that tens of thousands of Jews were also crucified, other Jews, which is also necessary to point out.

The problem has only been if Christians said Jews are to blame forever, all Jews all the time. That's, and unfortunately, in Europe, not in America, and I tell the Jews make a huge distinction between the Jewish experience with American Christians and European Christians. There, Jews were frequently blamed for something that they had no hand in, and that is evil. But to say that -- but I have no problem in saying that there were probably Jewish leaders, who, according to the story, who conspired with the Romans.

KING: It begins the era of anti-Semitism.

PRAGER: Yes, it does. Because the reader -- it's up to the reader. And this is what I have learned, no matter how divine you find the text, it is still in our hands what we do with the text. This is the ultimate freedom God has given us.

KING: Your interpretation.

PRAGER: Two people can read the same text and one can say, that God ultimately killed him and we are of the branch of Judaism, as evangelical Christians and many Catholics will say today, and others will say damn the Jews. Reading the same text.

KING: Jon Meacham, I'll come to you in a second. I got to take a break. You wanted to say something, John MacArthur?

MACARTHUR: It's much deeper than that. No true Christian transformed on the inside by faith in Jesus Christ is going to be an anti-Semite. What you have is people who call themselves Christians, but who have not been transformed by the power of Christ. They're the ones that would be anti-Semitic.

KING: In other words, if you're a racist, you can't be a Christian.

MACARTHUR: No, if you're a Christian, you will be converted from your racism.

KING: You can't be a racist if you're a Christian.

MACARTHUR: That's right. So true Christians...

KING: So when churches were segregated on Sunday morning, they were non-Christians.

MACARTHUR: You know, I have a real trouble believing -- we're talking about a different issue now. We're talking about a social issue, not a religious.

KING: But they were Christian.

MACARTHUR: I think Christians act like Christians. I think Christians are transformed people. And lots of people take the label, but don't know Christ.

KING: Wasn't it Mark Twain who said, if Christ came back, the one thing he wouldn't be is a Christian.

MACARTHUR: That's another overstatement by Mark Twain.


I will note John tries to state it is secondary, but this still does not negate all on that panel and Larry heard John say antisematic statements.

I hope that clears up the context issue for you!

Be Blessed,
iggy