~ emerging thought in Montana ~

Just woke from a funny and strange dream.

I was on a tour bus with Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, Andrew Jones and a couple of other guys going to a conference of some sort. I realized I was the only one that did not have a laptop! I was very concerned over this so called Bob Hyatt for advise. He told me to just buy a pen and paper notebook. Bob is very smart! LOL!

I just woke up laughing over it! It was pretty absurd.

iggy

Tony Jones and pastorboy... the finished product. This is part of Tony Jones' “On the Road with Trucker Frank” series today, webisode 5 that promotes Tony's book "The New Christians".

These have been really good.




Be sure to watch them all.

To find the interview between Tony and John (pastorboy) you can see it here in it's unedited form.

Update: You can read a little more at CRN.info

Be blessed,
iggy

We all know Brian McLaren reads my blog for inspiration.... (J/k)

So... HAPPY BIRTHDAY BRIAN!

iggy

I was a huge Jack Chick fan years ago, but as I grew I did not see things quite like Jack. This was pointed out by a new friend Michael Krahn. I found it compelling on many different levels. Watch it, read the write up on it then let's talk!

Just to be super clear ... YES! I believe in life after death!


I have not read the book "Everything Must Change", so I will not be so foolish as some to comment on a book I have nto read. Yet I have read many of Brian’s other books and listen to hours of lectures and on and on. Much I hear critics say about Brian I have not seen or heard from him. Recently a friend pointed to an article that was a bit disturbing as it was hard to understand what Brian was stating.

The first link was one I was glad to read as it seemed to clear up some things people have said against Brian. I think that most the critics of McLaren do not understand that other views and interpretations are out there about books like The Revelation. It seems that if one cannot grasp that even some interpretations that are considered the “most biblical” (as well as some doctrines” are relatively new in their development and often are based on summations of creeds and commentaries as well as traditions passed on by men. (Not to be confused with the traditions and teachings passed on by the Apostles.)

I do not recommend blindly trusting or believing anyone. Personally there are some political views I may differ from Brian and even some theological views. I hold that though the Revelation is apocalyptical it is also prophetic as it states it is.(“Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy,” Rev 1:3) I also read it as it states, “v19. "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.” I see that though as some see all has already happened, one thing remains, the Return of Jesus as the book states He will. (I do not see the day of Pentecost as the return of Jesus as it is evident in scripture that even after that day the Apostles looked forward to a literal day of Jesus’ return). I see that as in the OT at times there is a “Near/Far” theme. The example is that of the young girl (virgin) who is prophesied to give birth Isaiah (7:14) which is fulfilled in (2 Kings 16:9.) (I will not indulge in the “virgin” debate that claims that Matt was wrong and misused this “prophecy” I simply see that Matthew knew as most do, that a young girl most likely is a virgin…)

Being that Isaiah 7:14 is fulfilled, yet seems to still give more of a promise to be fully fulfilled later I see that this near far theme is carried out through out the bible. Though I see that almost every thing was fulfilled as Jesus stated it would be in that “generation” by 70AD, (Matthew 24:34) definitely gives a problem to those who only hold to the “future” view of Revelation as it then would make Jesus a liar!

Again, use wisdom and trust in the leading of the Holy Spirit. I found more just reading Revelation that lead me out of the “rapture” view. The deeper I looked at the scriptures that supposedly taught this view the less I saw it. (Though if pressed to have to believe the Rapture, I would be mid trib).

I see that we have a continuation of now until the New Creation comes. This earth and heaven are of the fallen creation. I do not subscribe to the “burn it all” idea, though I see that there will be a major meltdown to come… I see that as a purification of sin. The way I explain it is that God is not destroying this creation in the sense of annihilation as some teach. I see that as I will die and be raised again at the resurrection of the dead I will then be clothed in the imperishable and clothed in immortality. I will still be me. Likewise I see that this creation will rise as such and also be restored but even better… or as Jesus stated, “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10) I see that the Life is in the Son and in that we will rise to New Life in the New Creation as New created beings. The New Heavens and New Earth will be this one but in a much greater Glory. This is not denying that God will do some major things in the end of days rather it is fully acknowledging that there may be some terrible days ahead as God brings the two sided sword of justice. One side to set things right the other to punish those who have done wrong.

We must trust God first and foremost. Especially in that He knows His Word better than anyone. He promises to direct our path which to me means that as we read, there may be paths in the scripture we will never understand. It may be that we are not ready. Believe that God will teach you what He wants you to know. Often I have found God has different priorities than I do in what I think needs to be fixed in me. One point was that I was frustrated with a bad habit of swearing. I could control it most the time, yet I was shocked at times of what would flow out of my mouth! I would further feel condemned by it as I would read that fresh and salt water cannot flow from the same well… Yet, God dealt with me over my angry spirit. In that I found more control as he released me from the things that I would be angry about. (Rather God gave me tools to release anger before it worked its way in me too deeply).

Trust in Gods priorities.

Be blessed,
iggy

What a different world some live in....

Romans 12

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. 17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

If he is thirsty, give him a drink;

For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”[b]

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We left off in Chapter 11 talking about that no one has given to God that God need repay them. It is that all things are from God and that is absolutely true when it comes to salvation. Though the Jew for a time has hardened his heart, thus receiving a “blindness” from God, the Gentile now received open eyes for an age so that a many as can be saved will be saved.

Because of this Paul calls us to give our mortal bodies as living sacrifices. No longer living in a way to satisfy its desires, but to now live as though the body was placed on an alter. I have heard of some that state that the difference between the OT sacrificial system and the NT system is that The Lamb was slain that took sin away, allowing for us to place our own being, on the alter before Jesus to offer each of us as a living sacrifice unto God. In this as we lay willingly down acknowledging our own death, we become a fragrant aroma unto God “For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task?” (2 Corinthians 2:15-16)

Genesis 8: 20 -22 “Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done" As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease."

Being like the OT sacrifice we now also have the promise of never being destroyed. Instead we are promised the “renewing of our minds” so that as we live as living sacrifices we prove that God’s will is also as He promised… “good and acceptable and perfect”.

No one has come into the Life of Christ without the gift of faith. It was by Grace faith was dealt to each of us. God has a purpose for each one of us. We are called the “Body of Christ” and realize that we are dependant on Christ Jesus as our Head. Here we have diversity and unity in action. We are One Body, yet many Parts of the same Body. I see this much like the Trinity itself. Unified, yet Each Person unique and with a specific purpose again acting as One in that same Purpose.
Some teach the gifts of God or at least some of them have ended, which is very sad as here Paul is stating, no encouraging with much enthusiasm, that we, having been given these gifts by God’s grace, to use these gifts “in proportion to our faith; or ministry, let us use it in our ministering”. Yet, some state that even the gift Paul states first and foremost here, as not even a valid one for today.

What is saddest to me is that here some deny the Holy Spirits’ power to minister in their own flocks.

Now many attach agendas to “love” and Paul encourages us to “Let love be without hypocrisy”. We should not attach our agenda, and I would be so bold to even say that to approach someone to come to our very church as possibly not having a pure motive at times. When was the last time you took time to “love” unconditionally and without an agenda someone else. Have you fed the family that has no food without advertising who you are? Have you given blankets or coats to those who are cold, without saying I am from such and such church? Jesus stated, do not let your right hand know what your left was doing, (Matt 6:3) Yet, most often we are out promoting our church or denomination in front of Jesus! When was the last time “love” compelled you to do “good works” God prepared for us to do? (Ephesians 2:10) Try it… you might be amazed in what God will do when you step back and not put your agenda ahead of His.

Though many bibles will have the subtitles (which in no way are scripture) some might say “Act like Christians”. In this world, actors are fakes! I will state that to “act like a Christian” will make you fake! Instead practice being what you already are… a Christian. There is no acting involved if you are already what you are. If you are redeemed of the Lord, then be just that! If you just practiced this one point in your life in Christ, you will see all the attributes Paul speaks of coming true in you. Re-read the passage from verses 9-21 and see what amazing things one will be like if agendas are dropped and letting yourself be who God is creating by the transformation of the renewing of your mind in Christ Jesus.

Lastly just a word of encouragement.

“17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[a] says the Lord.”.

Over the last couple of years I have had some very awful and nasty things stated about me. I admit fully at times I became angry. Yet, I also must thank those who persecute and have attacked me in that I have learned to now laugh and not worry about protecting myself. Rather, if their accusations be false, then I will let God repay them if He desires. This has freed me in many ways. I no longer care what someone states about me. (I will slip at times, but please extend grace! LOL!)

God is good and if I am more worried about what some fool is stating about me then I may miss a real opportunity to bless someone else!

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

If he is thirsty, give him a drink;

For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”[b]
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

If one does these things it will be good for you as your time will not be consumed by those who are only out to divide and hurt others. What evil can be said that any will believe if you are feeding you very enemy or giving him drink… it truly is better to overcome evil with good.

I have been in dialog with John Chisham over the last few days. Here is the continuation.

First here is his "Open Response". His words added to mine are the blue ones though it is hard to tell at times. (could you use a brighter color next time? Thanks. )

Here are a few other references just to help it all come together a bit easier.

Ken Silva posted a transcript. It is done by Paula of Purpose Drivel, though Ken seems to have it "copyrighted" so I will not re-post it. So here is the link to Ken.

Here is the original post which has the "interview". With in this discussion a few others have entered and personally added nothing but name calling.

Here is my response to John's response ; )

John,

I am a brother in Christ as I am saved by grace through faith. When I stated that your conversion might be lacking please take that in context and believe me it was not as you are stating above. I stated that in the context of this interview, the explanation of your “experience” lacked clarity and could be contrasted as being a false conversion of works.

Now we are not that far apart in our theology, in fact we are very close, yet I think there are some things you seem to even miss now.

I stated that salvation was by the Fathers drawing so we respond to what He initiates. This is not works anymore than the child “works” in his own conception and birth. The mother is pushing, and the child will react to the contractions, yet the child wills not his own birth any more than we will our spiritual. It is out of a humble spirit we receive Grace by faith. (God gives grace to the humble scripture)

You stated that my definition of Sovereignty lacks depth, but notice that in the end, you came to the same conclusion and agreed with me that you were not as clear as you ought to have been. I affirm that the bible states as you quoted, yet again this is where one need be careful, as English is not the best in some choice of understanding verses’... Another point would be that Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” KJV creates many issues but if taken in other verses we understand that the word is calamity which means more like disasters and such which God uses at times to judge. Yet, if we are not careful then we will create theology that hinders God’s sovereignty instead of give more understanding to it.

Again, as I stated, you contradict the bible as Jesus own words state that God is not judging us, in fact He has given that over to Jesus. So for you to say “God is a righteous judge” while true, as well as true with Jesus, Jesus stated clearly this;

John 5: 22 “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.”

So you need to decide to follow your doctrine that states God will judge men by the Law, or Jesus’ words that “the Father judges no one.” That is your decision.

Again if God is so “bound” by the Law, then you are stating some interesting things.

Man could obey the Law
By obeying the Law; man could be saved by it.
The purpose of the Law would be then to give salvation by works
The law could give eternal life

None of this is true.

Man cannot obey the Law, the Law’s purpose was solely to show we are sinful
We cannot be saved by obedience or our own works. And the purpose of the scripture itself is to lead us to Jesus as Jesus stated in John 5: 39 “You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Again, this is what Jesus states that seem to go against your doctrinal view.

I get it clearly John and I hope you do as I still have my doubts you do… again this is not a jab, but much of what I am stating is spiritually revealed and missed in many theology classes.

When I speak of “New Creation” it is both present reality (physical and spiritual) as opposed to John MacArthur who teaches it to be “only spiritual and in the future”. (That is a direct quote and I can get it for you later if you desire to hear it yourself. The New Creation will have in it a New Earth and a New Heaven so no it is not the present Heaven as this will pass away with the present earth… as Revelation teaches as well as other places in scripture. We will most likely disagree that it is a continuation, but I see it as the same as I will be the same person at the resurrection but in a resurrected body and so the heaven and earth also will be the same but clothed in perfection.

You stated that you disagreed with me that on when regeneration takes place (I think as you went into many other things we agree on.) yet if you disagree, then you disagree that salvation is both instant and a process. You disagree that it involves the renewing of the mind and that it comes to it fulfillment when Jesus returns as Hebrews Hebrews 9:27-28
“27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

So Salvation is not “done” yet, though we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a promise that we are His.

Ephesians 1:11-14 “ 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”
Again, I think you need to re-read what I originally stated that you are stating you disagree with as I am stating as you restated, “salvation being both a settled and progressive event, with all the progress being made as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.” For that is what I was saying when I stated; “Christ's washing is effective for eternity, but while we are still in this dead flesh, daily washing is still required, until that day when no flesh shall remain. The washing of regeneration is like the baptism of the Spirit in Romans 6; we have been regenerated (born again) the renewal is that continued washing, scrubbing us down to look more like Jesus, so that we can be made heirs.”

If you disagree with this then what you are disagreeing with is Jesus own words again as He stated to Peter, “ 10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.” (John 13: 10-11)

But truthfully we agree though you fail to see it for some reason.
. “to believe rightly”… which is a direct quote, I am happy to see that you are learning already! LOL! But I did not take you out of context at all I took you in context and showed you again where you were not stating things clearly as you want from others.
“ I disagree, that is the absolute starting point for all these things. What makes a Christian is repentance and faith in Christ alone, that is being born from above.”

So you are saying repentance is a “work” we must to as it is required for salvation? I hope not. I think you need to flesh out your definition of repentance and contrast it if you are unintentionally making it a “qualifying condition or work.”
Yet for the most part again, we seem to agree on how salvation comes.
Here as I stated. is that you miss that you are preoccupied about myself and Tony and yet state I “hate” when I share my concerns about very serious things concerning salvation of some of your “friends.” For I see that even”a covenant baptism” can mislead and cause one to have a false conversion. Yet, Chris Rosebrough has stated it is “baptismal regeneration” he believes in… are you going to hold him to account over that? I doubt it…
Nevertheless, to attribute the motive of “hate” to me while not so to yourself seems hypocritical… unless you also “hate” Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, and Brian McLaren and so on.
“How do you know what Ken would say? You are judging a person wrongly! You cannot judge Ken's intentions, only his actions! You are dead wrong there buddy. “

LOL!

Yes you are right as Ken has no consistency. If it is against someone he is against, then he will call them names no matter what they show him as proof… he still calls me “semi pelagian” and in fact has many articles against the “arminians” in emergent… such as Doug Pagitt and Rob Bell. (Though I have not come across anything that about Rob Bell myself) I was going to link to this but it seems Ken’s site is down at this moment. I think that his actions should follow his beliefs and in his actions, this is what he has done in the past and there does not seem to be any sign of his quitting. So, again, unless you are advocating that we believe one thing and act another way other than from what we believe I am not sure why you are so worked up…


As far as works we are in agreement, then you also have issue with Ken and Ingrid as they are teaching “works righteousness.” They believe that you need do “things” to be holy and righteous. I do not as my righteousness, holiness and even my obedience is all imputed to me through Jesus Christ. (Romans 4,5,6 and so on)

“I want to live a right life before God primarily, but as part of my role as a Christian leader, I must contend for the faith in the face of false teachings.


Great! That is why I am here talking to you! Awesome… yet now I am wondering why you are taking so much offense in my calling you to clarity and to contend for that same said faith. The issue often, especially with Ingrid is she confuses style and personal preference with God’s holiness.

“Unity can only be found in truth, and truth is a known commodity. We see it in the Word of God, and in the person of Jesus Christ. I am on the side of Jesus, and He is not on the side of a generous orthodoxy. He is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE no man gets to the Father but by HIM.”

Therefore, with this you are “hating” Brian McLaren? In fact, Brian affirms all of this. Yet, we must never have Truth apart from the Person of Jesus Christ Who is truth as you quoted. How do you know Brian is not also on the side of Jesus…

Again, you attribute “hate” to me, yet state things like this… and see that you also can be perceived as having the same motive?

Therefore, I quote you to you;

“Your hatred is shining through here 1John 4:20 Examine yourself”

“I just want the emergers to be Born Again through faith in Christ and make that the focus of their ministry. Despite What Brian, Doug, Rob, and Tony say, we will not all be winding up in heaven or the hereafter unless we, by God's grace, have placed our faith in Christ alone for our salvation. We do not get there through vain philosophies. We cannot get there from Hinduism, Buddhism, practicing yoga, or contemplative prayer. Jesus is the only way. “

Again, I have not seen this other than when you have misquoted someone on your blog or added to their thought what you thought you have seen. Now one is saying that Jesus is not the Only Way to salvation. Yet, there is so much there and you will not see where you are off here so I am not going to go deeper in this now with you.


“I repent daily of my sins, and I cannot be in yoked together with those who do not follow the way of Christ exclusively. I can be friends with them, but I cannot be in covenant relationship with them.”

I personally walk in faith in the forgiveness of sin that Christ gave at the Cross. I believe in His finished works. I confess daily as I agree with God and live in agreement with Him. We have only a light difference here. Yet, to me I hear you are not resting in your own faith and have not accept fully the forgiveness already given as you seek to repent daily. Hebrews 6: states “4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Repentance is a one time thing but confession is forever. If you still repent then you still seek forgiveness of sins. If I offended you once but returned daily asking for forgiveness would you not get a little tired and wonder why I do no accept your forgiveness and move on? God forgave you at the cross.. Once for all you sins forgiven. Do a study on that phrase “once for all” and it will set you free! But, I see that there though I you still ask for forgiveness you already have and I choose by faith to walk in the forgiveness I have been given we both walk in faith in Christ.

“I am attending Masters Divinity School. Tony misspoke, I did not correct him. I wish I could afford Dr. MacArthurs school. I misspoke several times, because I did not know the nature of this interview. If I had at least a scope of the interview, I would have been better prepared.”

Then you do not contend for truth! (just kidding)…

Again, about God being “bound” … God is not bound to anything. For anything God chooses would be just for He is just. It is not out of Justice that God sent His only Son… but out of Love. And since Jesus fulfilled the Law, God is not bound to it nor was He. He loved us so much He became a man and died for us. This Substitutionary atonement (technically the propitiation of our sins which is much more than substitution) Jesus was the lamb of God that took away the sins of the world…

1 John 2:1 “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.”

Since you did not comment on the rest of my statements, we will work out of what you did comment on.

However, notice that you seem to agree and even when you did disagree, you seemed to misunderstand me…

I hope that you can move from this accusatory feelings toward me and know I have no ill will toward you. I also thank you for taking the time to clarify some of you misspoken things and realize that people are people and no one is perfect. And mostly that we need give grace to all.

Be Blessed,
iggy

March 3, 2008 3:33 PM

An Open Letter to John Chisham aka Pastorboy

John,

I just listened to Tony’s interview with you on your blog, The Down Grade and it was very revealing.

First off I want to say you seem a very nice guy and very personable… this does not always translate on the blogosphere or in the forums we both tend to travel. I appreciate that you are not as much on the attack as I had thought you were… and please as you read this realize I have a friendly smile and do so in a way that I hope is as a friend and brother in Christ and not an enemy. This is not an attack on you at all... just some observations.

Man there are some major errors in your theology! I mean that in the nicest way…

Let me explain one area for starters…

God is sovereign… I hope we agree.

Yet you state that there are some things God “cannot do” like lie.

You have created a major contradiction. For if God is sovereign, then nothing is impossible. If God cannot do something and is “bound” to it, then God is subject to the thing He is “Bound” to… God is not longer sovereign… the thing He is bound to becomes sovereign over God.

Now, it is not that God “cannot do” this or that, but “will not” do something as it is against His nature to do that thing. So you are limiting your Sovereign God and making him less than sovereign. If God is not sovereign then He cannot be just, but must bow to the justice of the thing He is bound to. God will not do some things as it is against His Character. He does things because of His Name as it is because of His character to do or to not to do. If you take away God’s will and bind Him in anyway, then He cannot be sovereign. God may limit Himself as He did in the incarnation as Jesus emptied Himself (Philippians 2:6-7) and became totally dependant on the Father by the Holy Spirit. (John 5:19)

Get that so far?

God in Truth….

God is Truth and Jesus is the Truth Incarnate. To know Truth we need to know Jesus. We do not approach God from our view of Truth but from His. Jesus states in John 5: 39-40. “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Without the Person Who is Truth Incarnate and without first having the Life that is in the Son you cannot have Truth. We may have a perception of Truth but it will only be relative to our own limited knowledge. So to say that we are to seek God in Truth is backwards… God reveals His Truth to us and we gain understanding of Truth by that revelation by what is called the “renewing of the mind”. (Romans 12:2) This is called regeneration and is the process in which we are transformed on this side of the New Creation until we receive our New Bodies in the fulfillment of the New Creation.

That is why to place regeneration ahead of salvation is a bit dangerous as it implies one has already arrived. As we are “Born of Heaven” or “Born from above” which is the literal translation of being “born again” we begin the process of regeneration that comes to its fulfillment when we are in the New Creation. (Titus 3:5) You might note in Titus 3:5 that it is “the washing” which is not the same as “having been washed” it is a process that begins and continues until we are “renewed” by the Holy Ghost at the Resurrection, as stated in verse 7 if you stay in context.

So we may agree that one need be born of heaven, yet I think that you miss the nuance of what is actually going on by the system of theology you use.

It is not as you stated. “to believe rightly”… in fact, you miss the subtle nuance of the passage in which it is that if one believes they are not condemned and in that if they do not believe they are condemned already. It is not in the “belief” but the person that one is saved. Or as Jesus stated, “so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” (John 3 14-15) So what you have done and is done most often unintentionally is switch the focus from belief in Him to being saved by one’s “Belief” and even more narrow, a “rightly believed, belief” … and this is what Plato taught and was known as Gnosticism… to believe in our own beliefs or abstract thoughts or the immaterial … as if it was a higher reality than the material. This is dangerous as it is subtly moving salvation being based on “the Person of Jesus Christ come in the flesh” to “immaterial abstract beliefs” and as John teaches in 1 John 4: 2. “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3. but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.” So if I was not as nice as I was I would point out that you have allowed the Spirit of anti Christ replace the Person of Jesus if you assert that it is our belief that saves us… of course I do not think you believe that, but as I listened to you talk to Tony Jones… that is exactly what you stated and I heard.


Now, “What makes a Christian” is not as important as how one is brought to and finds salvation. Often what makes a “Christian” is reduced to being religious. Jesus stated that we are to believe and do. Not just believe. So much focus is on just believing and not doing. In fact much of the doing is man made busy work… and misses the “works of God” done in and through us.

Yet here you also stated that some confess things like "baptism saves us"... and yet, there are those like Chris Rosebrough who goes to the Lutheran church... and believes just this! Yet, you are more concerned that Tony thinks that most do not "think" this way, while you ignore Chris Rosebrough teaching others what you have just condemned... http://www.blogger.com/www.extremetheology.com

I know you will then say, that you are not responsible for Chris, yet then how are you responsible for Tony or me or anyone for that matter?

I see an agenda a mile wide and in a huge steaming pile and the consistent refusal to face your "comrades in arms". In fact as you stated you are a Cal-Minian, which is fine with me, yet Ken Silva would state flat out you are a semi-pelagian and have a man loving man based faith… and as I listen to you I would actually agree!

Now as I listen to Ingrid and Ken, Ingrid teaches a gospel of "works righteousness" as well as Ken Silva who teaches so many things that not only condemn emergents, but almost every single person who contributed to Christian History!

Again, you seem to be blind to all that... and focus on the gnat while the camel swallows you.

You are in the minority and in that minority there is a huge contradiction. You have Lutherans and Calvinists saying that we must be like them, when historical Luther did not like Calvin though Calvin liked Luther... Zwingli agreed with all points with Luther except over the Lord's Supper and Luther refused to talk to Zwingli ever again after their meeting.

So, which tradition of man are we supposed to follow all in the name of being reformed?

Again, if someone on your "side" studied some history there might be a breakthrough... we might find common ground and actually seek real Unity in the faith.

Did you know according to Dr David Calhoun at Worldwide Theological Seminary, which is a reformed school that the teaching of Grace might have been lost if it was not for the Christian Mystics? That these men inspired Augustine, Aquinas, St Bernard, which inspired Luther, and Calvin and all the great reformers?

What we have is a huge lump of ignorance attacking others out of their ignorance...

Did you realize that the one who gave us St Anthony of the Desert also was instrumental in giving us the present canon of scripture as well as the Nicene Creed?

Again, this is how dangerous people like Ken Silva and Ingrid are...

Did you know that Ingrid pushed a form of Contemplative prayer on her own blog while attacking others for practicing it?

I mean you guys always attack the Emerging church on thing and call us to be like you, yet we look at history and wonder which "you" are we to be? It seems that you can't even decide which one you should be... and you want us to be like you, and you claim all this certainty?

I stand here again calling you and your friends to repentance in the Name of Jesus... that you would seek Unity in the Faith in Christ and not around your man made indecisive doctrines.

The bottom line is that when I listened to you speak and noted that you are attending John MacArthur’s Masters Institute… working on a Masters degree… and you state that the emerging church or emergent are “hard to nail down” or “some squishy or untidy language being used” and I hear you contradict yourself all over and as I pointed out… I wonder what is being taught at that and other seminaries.

Again, John this is not meant to be harsh or mean or whatever, but just what I have observed and heard from your camp and from you.

Now realize we have not even gotten into your view of the atonement and how you seem to deny the finished works of Christ on the Cross by stating that God is “bound” to punish those according to the Law. In fact you contradict Jesus own words by saying that God is bound to “judge” mankind… John 5:22 flat out states the contrary to your assertion. “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son” is what the bible teaches. In fact Jesus goes on to say that “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (you might recongnize John 3:17 there) to condemn means that Jesus would judge it, yet scripture also states, “-those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” (John 5:29) but what you are missing is who and how people who do evil will be judged. “You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. (John 8:15-16) which leads us to how one will be judged, "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” (John 12: 47-48)

First notice why one will be judged besides doing evil. It is because they rejected Jesus, they are not judge because God is bound by the Law… it is because they rejected Jesus.

Second, notice that it is by the Words that Jesus spoke… for as scripture states, “The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.” (Romans 8:6). Jesus dealt with sin on the Cross and in with that we are only faced with the wages of Sin… which is death. What do dead men need most? Life! The Life is in the Son… Christ died “once for all” or as scripture states, “he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself”. Notice that last phrase, as it is very important in understanding the Cross… “to do away with sin” or as John the Baptist stated, “Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. You confuse the propitiation of sin with salvation, for as Roman 5:10 plainly states; “For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”

We are saved through His Life… yet you are still saying that God is bound by the Law that Jesus fulfilled and must punish mankind by that demands of the Law. This is not the proper understanding of the Law at all. The Law was to reveal sin and show that wrath was stored up for us, yet instead we find God is longsuffering and kind and gave his only Son to die in our place so that we may have new life by the power of the Resurrection. People who reject Jesus reject their own salvation. It is that simple.

There is much more John that I would love to talk about with you. I do hope this will lead you into a deeper understanding of what our great faith is about and that we share.

Be blessed,

iggy

It is that time again when I look outside my little bubble and see what everyone else is doing. And this is what I found...

Build your own Chickensaurus!

Vote for the best Cosmic duo to destroy a spy satellite.

Castro stepped down... so now who will lead Cuba?

Puerto Rico backs McCain.

Origin of the Dead Son's Portrait...

Bob Hyatt is a pagan... so what?

Tall Skinny gives the skinny on the most sinful cities in America... so when is the road trip?

John O'keefe asks, "what part of love don't we understand?"

Jason Clark recommends theotherjournal.com and also welcomes you to hell week… which should be pretty interesting.

On the "this makes me sick" side of things, some are voting if Doug Pagitt is a heretic or not... Doug Pagitt. Heretic or Not? - CWN

This should hold you over for a while...

Be blessed,

iggy

Of all at Emergent, Tony Jones has been one that intrigued me the most. I really like much he offers at Emergent Village such as the Plato Smackdown and other podcast dealing with philosophy and religion.

With that I had some great anticipation when heard he had a book come out. Now, I caution that like other "Emergents" Tony is but one voice in a much larger conversation. I do see heavy influence by Brian McLaren both from the title to the much that is spoken about by in New Kind of Christian as we flash forward and find the pioneers who blazed trails and also took the arrows.

I was not disappointed with Tony's book. I see though as I look around the web (I usually try not to as I am about to write a review, yet for some reason I did...) I see that the chapters Tony talks about the "chickens" seem to miss the mark with some. It seems some people miss the understanding of stewardship and think Tony is "out to save the chickens" truthfully I saw that chapter about saving Christianity from consumerism... not just consumerism, but wanton destruction and total disregard for God's creation. The own took to heart his business, the officers, thought it a joke to worry about the humane slaughter of chickens... and many of them were "Christians". To me to understand that (which seemed a simple illustration) one would begin to grasp the issues we see as emerging... Christians.

My favorite point that Tony makes is how he explains "Absolute truth" I won't spoil it, but suffice it to say, I wish I have the simple illustration to explain why I see that the biblical definition of Truth needs no "qualifier" and to add to it, actually takes away from it and adds more issues than if we just stood on the bibles definition. This is not to throw out "absolutes" rather to gain that Truth is a Person... Jesus Christ... and not a detached abstract thought.

If one is trying to get an understanding on the "movement" this will give a bit more to the grand puzzle. But, realize as I already stated, this is a grand mosaic of many conversants. To say this book wraps it all up neatly, would be misleading, yet it will help flesh out the misunderstandings that are out there. (unless you get stuck thinking about saving chickens for Jesus and miss the point!) = )

For other voices about the book..