Repost: Some Advise for Handling Critics

Some Advise for Handling Critics.






1. Rejoice! Mat 5: 11. "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. 13. "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

2. Give no answer (I am working on this one) Mark 14: 56. Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree. 57. Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58. "We heard him say, `I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.'" 59. Yet even then their testimony did not agree. 60. Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 61. But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

3. Let Christ’s light shine through. Acts 6:13 They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us." 15. All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.

4. Keep Serving the Lord and let the false accusers come to their own end. For God is faithful. 2 Cor 11: 12. And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

5. Live in the freedom of Christ and do not give in to the false accuser. Gal 2: 4. [This matter arose] because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you. 6. As for those who seemed to be important--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance--those men added nothing to my message.

6. Do not give into the meaningless chatter of your accusers. Leave them in their falsehood.1 Tim 6:20. Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21.which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith. Grace be with you.

7. My final advice is this Forgive and pray for your enemies… and love them. Matt 5: 43. "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45. that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

This site also has some good ideas on conflict resolution.

Blessings,

iggy

A Sermon for Discernment Folks... and for the rest of us also.

Conflict Resolution from Northland Church on Vimeo.

Thanks to Brian McLaren for pointing this out on his blog.

Great quotes: Walter Martin versus Ken Silva

I find it interesting that I am called a heretic when I state that Adam was created "innocent". Many have attacked me over this over the years. Yet, tonight I was skimming through a book by Walter Martin who states:

“…Adam was created innocent, and God put his divine stamp of approval on that creation by calling him, “the son of God” (Luke 3:38)…”



“Even though Adam was created innocent, by an act of free will he fell into imperfect practices which God allowed so as to not violate the freedom which alone makes it possible for men and angels to choose to love Him.” ~ Essential Christianity by Walter Martin page 17

Many so called "Discernment" ministry people have argued with me... one in particular states I am a "semi-pelagian" (Hi Ken Silva) Yet, it is Ken who claims to have been "mentored" by Walter Martin... this same Walter Martin from whom most likely I first heard this teaching from... (Oh and Ken Silva's definition of mentoring is that he has listened to Walter Martin tapes... he never met the man so if that is the case, I listened to him live for many years as well as listened to tapes and read his books... so I am also "mentored" as Ken Silva... so have all the same credentials or lack of that he does)

So, as I read this, I find it sad that Ken Silva uses the name of Walter Martin to legitimize himself, yet never met the man... then attacks others for the very thing Walter Martin taught! It is as if Ken Silva is the Anti-Walter Martin.

Walter Martin for all his flaws was a great man in my view. He taught me much... such as not attacking the person but addressing their doctrine when you are trying to lead them to Christ. Ken seemed to miss that point I guess... The point here is that I have addressed Ken Silva's doctrine... and even now am. He is a brother in Christ... though I see him as very confused. Unlike his words to me, I consider him saved if he claims Jesus. I think his actions and words dishonor Walter Martin greatly and that Ken Silva may need to bone up on Walter Martin as it seems to Ken Silva, Walter Martin was a semi pelagian heretic as he believed and taught many of the same things I do.

Please pray for Ken Silva and family.

A short note was left on CRN concerning a real tragedy in Ken Silva's family.

My family learned yesterday afternoon that my youngest brother made the tragic decision to end his life. Unfortunately, there was no warning or prior indication something like this could occur and he leaves behind two teenage sons.

If one agrees with or disagrees with Ken on issues, at times like this it does not matter. Please take time to pray for Ken and his family. You might even send him a note stating your sympathies. apprising@hughes.net

iggy

And now a word from Tim Challies

I thought this article was excellent... and what I found actually funny is that SoL, CRN (Ken Silva) are all feather ruffled over it and Tim Challies never mentioned their names... funny they know who they are... but can't admit the harm they do. Of course Ken uses this as a chance to bash Richard Abanes, and Ingrid complains about her comment not appearing on Tim's blog... really that one makes me laugh as back in the day I was banned from comments on Slice... then they stopped allowing comments as Ingrid just could not bear all the "hate"...

Thanks for praying the other day...

God is good. His greatness is shown by His kindness. We rob only ourselves of the riches of His kindness, tolerance and patience when we keep hold of our stubborn heart. (Romans 2:4)

I have wondered at how many show contempt for others, mocking and acting as it those they were "exposing" are supposedly less worthy of God's grace that others... In fact to do that is to show contempt for the kindness of God.

My daily prayer is for those who seem to have contempt for the kindness of God and see that Grace is not worthy of extending to others. I not only prayer for them but for my own heart which at times seems to lack the ability to give grace to those who are graceless to others.

Yet, my heart is always for reconciliation. I desire only that the hypocrisy stops. That this hate clothed with a thin veneer of love is exposed and that those who live such ways find the love of God. This love is impossible not to pass on to others as it changes us from the inside out. Once touched by this Love of God that dwells in us as we dwell in Him we cannot help but give it away.

My actions may not always seems loving to some. Yet, the pain of holding the mirror to myself to see who I really am is often painful. Sometimes God uses our friends who feel like enemies to hold that mirror up for us to see.

I remember before I was found by Grace. I heard a man who spoke of this grace. I was "saved" and did all the "right" things... yet I found I hated this man more than any other man I had known. My only desire was to prove him wrong and expose him for the fraud he was....

Yet, God had other plans for me. I listened to his show on the radio and read through Hebrews. I took extra effort and care to keep the context of each chapter as I read. If in chapter 1,2,3, it stated one was secure in their faith, then in chapter 6 and 10 I had to keep those in context of the previous chapters. When I finished, I was profoundly shaken by my discovery that my theology... ( my understanding of eternal security) was wrong. I then read this man 's book... Classic Christianity... and discovered even more of God's grace for me.

I love this man, Bob George, and consider him to be one of the greatest influences on my life and it's course. Funny thing is, Bob and I would not agree on many things, yet, Grace which is rooted in Love, covers our differences. These things are so little and meaningless in contrast to what God's grace is doing in our lives.

My prayer for those that call themselves my enemy... (They are not now and have ever been mine) is that they come to grasp how great this Grace God has for them. I pray that they are so infected by it they are changed from one who judges and condemns others in the Name of Jesus, though He Himself did not come to do that, to one who desires only to show the kindness of God.

Sometimes a friend holding a mirror up to us, will feel like our enemy... yet, in the end if we see what God is doing, that friend will be one of those who had loved us most of all.

Be blessed,

iggy

CRN lies some more... but what's new?

Interesting that Chris Rosebrough sees fit to lie about Richard Abanes again. His claims that Richard has yet to give an answer... is well... a lie. Richard already gave an answer... which seems that Chris Rosebrough sees fit to ignore.

Personally this whole situation has shown me what these ODM's truly are. I see that they will stop at nothing and use the ways of the world to attack and slander others. They seem to have no shame... nor the ability to extend Grace, Mercy, or the loving Kindness of God. I wonder as I read scripture at the King who forgave a servant a great debt... yet that servant went out and demanded payment from another that owed him money...

Here is that passage.

Matt 18:21-35

21. Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22. Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

23. "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26. "The servant fell on his knees before him. `Be patient with me,' he begged, `and I will pay back everything.' 27. The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28. "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. `Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. 29. "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, `Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' 30. "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt.

31. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32. "Then the master called the servant in. `You wicked servant,' he said, `I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34. In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

This is my fear for these people.

In a recent dialogue with a very prominent figure in all this, they confessed that they had trouble "not hating" me. I believe that is part of their issue. They need to deal with the person in the mirror... and not project their issues on others.

I practice forgiveness daily... I forgive them for making even physical threats against my person as one "pastor" did. I forgive them for judging my salvation which is God's territory only.

I would not be surprise to receive a letter from a lawyer from one of them. Again, they seem to have no issues with doing as the world does.

This "Truth War" was never about truth...

My heart truly goes out to these people. I pray for them daily asking for God's best for them and that they be blessed in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I do not hate them... yet it seems they need to overcome their own hatred for others.

Blessings,

iggy

Apprising ministries. org is gone... for now. Update

Update: Apparently this was a publicity stunt. Ken is back. Here is more info at CRNinfo

I don’t care if Ken has a website, I do care that he is slandering his brothers and sisters in Christ and desires to harm others.

I know he does not see he is doing this, yet, if he did not think that he was not guilty at all, I think his site would still be up. Yet, it seems that most of the ODM’s miss that by the worlds standards (which I see as much lower than God’s) it was seen that his site was libel and was after all slanderous.

I do feel bad for Ken that he has to close up shop, yet I hope that when he does come back he will revamp his ministry to be a ministry and not an assassin blog. I also hope that when he comes back he can be an edifier of the Body.

Ken, if you read this, my prayers for God’s best are always with you. My hope is that you grow in grace from this experience.

iggy

Can you find Jesus at this site? Update

My friend, Joe C. entered in http://www.apprising.org/ at this site and I can't find Jesus anywhere. This is a Christian ministry?

Look for yourself!

To be fair, here is my site... Jesus is there, you just have to look a bit.




Update:

Here is a picture of the new site... and still no Jesus.

I found this funny and interesting....

You might notice who is talked about the most?


Now, you might notice who really gets the glory at these to opposing sites?

http://wordle.net/gallery?username=BigRed

Thanks Big Red... LOL!

iggy

Ken Silva Lies about Richard Abanes Lawsuit

I found this very interesting as recently Ingrid contacted lawyers to make a website that talked bout her personal life when she was in high school shut down. Not one word about 1 Corinthians 6 was mentioned by the Online Discernment Ministries. Yet, it seems author Richard Abanes had enough of Ken Silva's lies and slander and asked Ken Silva's ISP to help put a stop to Ken's ongoing assault.

Here is the rest of the story.

Ken Silva still continues the lie that Richard Abanes is threatening a lawsuit.

Interestingly one of the people who overlooked Ingrid's actual using a lawyer seems to be a bit disgruntled at all this. Pastorboy aka John Chisham had these words with Richard over this.

pastorboy Says: after publication. -->July 24th, 2008 at 10:13 pm

Richard,

It tells me that you are way too concerned with man’s laws, because you feel hurt. I get that.
But just because you perceive that a brother has wronged you and has violated scripture, does that mean you get to violate scripture to get back at him? just wondering. (source: http://christianresearchnetwork.info/submissions-2/#comment-66908)

Richard reminds Pastorboy that he only contacted Ken's ISP and did not contact a lawyer. This fact seem lost on Pastorboy.

Once again, one standard for themselves and another for those they attack.

This highlights the high hypocrisy of the ODM as they turn their backs on one who does use a lawyer to shut down website and then attack someone who simply asks an ISP to shut down a website that has lies and slander as "research".

Ken also runs Christian Research Network.

Please pray for Jon Cardwell

I have been coresponding with Jon Cardwell over the past year. He is a missionary in Alaska yet has found out he has ALS otherwise know as "Lou Gehrig's disease". I was saddened to hear this. ALS is a slow degenerative muscle disease so it will take some time for it to have it's full effect on Jon. He still has needs as making a living.

I have asked people to pray over the internet a few times and have seen miracles. From the miracle of my son who was rapidly losing weight from birth and not eathing to see him begin to eat and gain strength and weight the very day many prayed, to the recent fires in Molt/Park City area in which none of my relatives property was damaged by fire. In fact one relative had the fire stop right at her property line and there seems no reason other than divine intervention.

I know God can heal people and I ask that you pray for Jon. He is currently in the lower states looking for places to preach and possibly to be the full time pastor.

Please Bless Jon and his family,

iggy

One reason not to be quick to judge...

Spiritual side of discernment

I personally do not know who Patrick Ersig is, yet I will say that this post at Sermonindex.net is spot on. My prayer is and has always been for those who claim to be "discerning" yet seem more intent on judging and condemning that they learn true discernment.

Please read it prayerfully and as the author desires.

Be blessed,

iggy

Tozer devotional: Truth Must be Lived

Tozer Devotional

Collective Writings from the Books of A.W. Tozer

That Incredible Christian

Chapter #28

To Be Understood, Truth Must Be Lived

Being Participants in Truth

Truth cannot aid us until we become participators in it. We only possess what we experience. St. Gregory of Sinai, who lived in the fourteenth century, taught that understanding and participation were inseparable in the spiritual life. “He who seeks to understand commandments without fulfilling commandments, and to acquire such understanding through learning and reading, is like a man who takes a shadow for truth. For the understanding of truth is given to those who have become participants in truth (who have tasted it through living). Those who are not participants in truth and are not initiated therein, when they seek this understanding, draw it from a distorted wisdom. Of such men the apostle says ‘the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit,’ even though they boast of their knowledge of truth.” Here is a simple but neglected doctrine that should be restored to its rightful place in the thinking and teaching of the Church. It would work wonders.

Prayer

Lord, teach me what it means to participate in Your truth that through it I may be free.

Scripture

The Lord says: 'These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is made up only of rules taught by men.'
— Isaiah 29:13

Thought

Some of us measure our commitment to Christ by the truth we mouth and the rules we keep--rules which may be man-made and not from God. But truth must be tasted through living if we are to be participants in it.

Unknown Critics.. Why Listen?

This is just an observation. But has anyone else noticed that some of the "biggest" critics out the, like Ken Silva or Chris Pajak do not have any pictures of themselves anywhere on their blogs or other sites? It is like the unknown comic... was he a legit comic? Really, the gong show as big as it's success really never catapulted him to fame. His jokes were lame and so on... and I guess all that was the reason he never showed his face to the public. There are some that are even saying Ken Silva is not even a real person but a group of people writing as if he was a real person. (I do not believe that myself) = )

Now, I am not stating that the people I mentioned are like lame comics who are afraid to show their faces... well maybe I am. But, really if someone cannot show their face, I wonder if it is really worth listening to their voice? I wonder if it is that they actually live in "fear" from all those they attack? I am not sure... but I see that if you can't show your face in public, then their might be something wrong. I say this as one of these guys tried to mock me in how I look... but at least I will say I was flattered in their comparison and will add I walk in no fear of man. I will not only show my face but stand before man and God and as Luther stated;

“If the emperor desires a plain answer, I will give it to him. It is impossible for me to recant unless I am proved to be wrong by the testimony of Scripture. My conscience is bound to the Word of God. It is neither safe nor honest to act against one’s conscience. Here I stand. God help me. I cannot do otherwise.”

Be Blessed,

iggy

Responding to Ken Silva pt 2… the Mystics and Historical Christianity

Responding to Ken Silva… the Mystics and Historical Christianity

Ken Silva was once a Catholic. In that he saw some things that were not “Christian” in the sense that as other denominations, the RCC has strayed in many areas of what I prefer to call Biblical Christian faith.

I prefer to use “Biblical Christian Faith” as often Orthodox is misunderstood or abused or too broad or too narrow. In using the Bible as what is the basis of Christian faith I hope that we can understand some basic things that come from history and the bible.

I am responding to this little blurb, of which in itself is but a small part of an over all misunderstanding of history or our faith. I have read Ken’s view here and there but this attack piece on Shane Claiborne seemed to be the clearest in the way Ken speaks as to the real issue that is between ken and others which is his lack of Historical understanding and the Bible and how they often are truly relative in relationship with each other.

First here is the article from CRN. Note this is posted by the “editor” which is or is not Ken, yet this has “Ken Silva" all over it as all the links lead to Ken’s other site Apprising Ministries.

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Shane Claiborne Mystic Mumbo Jumbo
Published February 16th, 2008 by Editor in Emerging Church, Postevangelicalism
For those who may doubt it Shane Claiborne is definitely into the mystic mumbo jumbo of the Emergent Church. So-called "Christian" mysticism is a core doctrine of the emerging church movement from its very inception.

To be fair, Claiborne is hardly alone in using this perverted reference to experiencing God as one’s "lover"; and what follows from his book The Irresistible Revolution is classic language from those who practice contemplative mysticism: church history is filled with folks who followed God as singles–Jesus, for one; many of the disciples and martyrs, Francis and Claire of Assisi, the desert monastics, to name a few others…

At first it was a rational thing; I was attracted to the idea of God as lover. And then I began to experience God as lover, and I quickly became attracted to the Lover. I read Hosea and got the sense that life is a romance with the divine. I started meeting with a Catholic monk, who had taken a vow of poverty and celibacy. He told me, "We can live without sex, but we cannot live without love, and God is love." I had come to see God as lover and provider… (111)

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" For those who may doubt it Shane Claiborne is definitely into the mystic mumbo jumbo of the Emergent Church. So-called "Christian" mysticism is a core doctrine of the emerging church movement from its very inception."

Answer:
This is the core issue which I will state Ken misses that by throwing out all mysticism as wrong, misses that historically much what Ken believes was and is attributed to mysticism and its influence on our foundations of our faith and even later the Reformer themselves.

If we say “mysticism is tainted”, then we must go to the root of the mystic teachers and those who promote them. Yet, in saying they are tainted then brings the Fathers of our faith in to question and in that, the bible itself.

Now one of the most misunderstood things is that there is a great history of Christianity both eastern and western. Athanasius of Alexandria would be a great place to start. It was him (Besides the Apostles themselves but I will get to the biblical references for this later) that first wrote about the mystic way of Life of St. Anthony. Yet, if we just stop there we then miss that Athanasius of Alexandria was one that stood against many heresies of his day which includes Arianism and the Meletians who did not accept the Niceae Council's Creed.

Now, Athanasius was far from perfect, in fact his attack against Ariansim seems historically more of a caricature than the realities of what they believed. There was also controversy as to how he came to the position of Pope.

That being said, Athanasius did do some very great things.

“Athanasius is revered as a saint by the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Eastern Catholic Churches. He is traditionally regarded as a great leader of the Church by the Lutheran Church, the Anglican Communion, and most Protestants in general.” (Source Wikipedia)

Of his greatest accomplishments, Athanasius was the secretary at the First Council of Nicaea and also was a major influence in the development of the Cannons of Scripture. Which is why I am starting here. For if we are to question and assert as Ken Silva does, that all mysticism is wrong, then one of the most important figures in the development of the bible as we have it, let alone one of the greater participants of the Council of Nicaea, then we then must be aware that there is a grave issue in whether the bible and the creeds are trustworthy. Of course there is much more to this, but again my focus is on the idea that if a person is tainted with "mysticism", and all they do is tainted as Ken asserts with Shane Claiborne, even to attack the teaching "God is Love" as perverted by saying "God is our Lover"... misses that there are complete books of the Bible that teach just this. Again I see this as more ignorance which can be fixed with a little education if one cares to gain a bit of knowledge with their zeal.

I recommend that if anyone is interested, Covenant Worldwide has some great “free” courses online. I recommend Ancient & Medieval Church History taught by Dr. David Calhoun. This is a “reformed” school taught by a Calvinist. So in that there is some bias in the teaching, yet, I found it very informative and of great interest. I am now doing Reformation & Modern Church History and will be doing Calvin's Institutes in the next few months. I am not putting Mr. Silva down, yet will boldly state that ignorance does cause much hate. It is better to state things with a bit of grasp of history than to be ignorant and throw out the baby and the bathwater.

Be blessed,
iggy

Responding to Ken Silva... True Unity in Christ

Responding to Ken Silva... True Unity in Christ

Interesting response to Ken Silva at Dan Goldfinch's Blog... very well written. Update on True Unity in the Body of Christ

Be Blessed,

iggy

Logic lessons with Ken Silva... (?????)

At a blog where a person likes to take one sentance and create straw men to attakc people, I had an interesting lesson in logic from Ken Silva...

It starts with a guy called, (sorry if this is offensive, it was his choice of names not mine.) Poop is Emergent.

Poop is Emergent Too said...
Chris L: Driscoll was Catholic by backround...And Pagitt was once a pastor in the Baptist General Conference which is not liberal by most standards...

Also lack of certain trust in Jesus and his word and revelation is not humility, it is foolishness, masqurading as humility.

By your definition it would seem that Jesus was nothing more than an arrogant fool when he claimed "Unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
February 12, 2008 1:18 PM

iggy said...
Poop,"Also lack of certain trust in Jesus and his word and revelation is not humility, it is foolishness, masqurading as humility."

Yes, we all remember the words of the man asking Jesus to heal his son in Mark 9:23-24 as foolishness...

""`If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes." Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!""

Yes, such a masquerade that man put on...

iggy February 12, 2008 1:26 PM

Ken Silva said...
iggy mocks: "we all remember the words of the man asking Jesus to heal his son in Mark 9:23-24 as foolishness...

"This is the fallacy of the false analogy. P was talking about Doug Pagitt, who is functioning as a Christian pastor (apples).

The man referred to in Mark 9 is still unregenerate and certainly is not expected to be a teacher of God's Word (oranges).

Therefore they cannot be compated in the context of P's comment.
February 12, 2008 1:53 PM

iggy said...
Ken,

So by your infallible logic,

Doug is saved...

He is of the Elect and no one can snatch him out of Jesus' hands... not even you.

thanks! = )

iggy
February 12, 2008 1:57 PM

Ken Silva said...
iggy,1) It isn't my logic.

And 2) I didn't say anything at all about Doug being saved. What I said was he "is functioning as a Christian pastor".

February 12, 2008 2:10 PM

iggy said...
Ken,

Then by your "not your logic" a "Christian" pastor is not "Christian"?

Interesting... so Doug is not saved and is a "Christian" pastor...

I am enjoying this "logic" lesson... or your "not your logic" lesson.

Please enlighten us more. = )

iggy February 12, 2008 2:16 PM

Ken Silva said...

iggy,

I believe you're sharper than this: "a 'Christian' pastor is not 'Christian'?" One can claim to be a Christian, but that doesn't make it so. I certainly wouldn't have called Pagitt as pastor and I don't personally think he is a Christian.

However, it is an incontrovertable fact that Doug Pagitt "is functioning as a Christian pastor."
February 12, 2008 2:32 PM


iggy said...
Ken,

"I certainly wouldn't have called Pagitt as pastor and I don't personally think he is a Christian.

However, it is an incontrovertable fact that Doug Pagitt "is functioning as a Christian pastor.""

So, let's look at your "not my logic" here:

1. You state that Doug is "functioning as a Christian pastor"

2. Yet not all that are "Christian" are Christian becuase YOU personally think Doug is not.

3. But yet the only "incontrovertable" fact you are asserting is that Doug is functioning as a Christian pastor...

So we conclude that if YOU personally do not think one is a Christian, they still can function as a "Christian" pastor though not be a Christian... though you refer to them as a Christian.

So one is a Christian only if you say they are.

I see... so it all depends on YOU and what YOU think...

Got it.

iggy
February 12, 2008 2:48 PM

Ken Silva said...
iggy,

I'm afraid you and I aren't going to get anywhere here so it's best we drop it. In my opinion, to paraphrase a famous saying: "Your reasoning has left the building."
February 12, 2008 3:20 PM

iggy said...
Ken,

I agree, your logical orbit is a bit too small for me.
See ya,

igs
February 12, 2008 3:22 PM

The Truth Warriors Seminar is now available from this guy...

The Truth Warriors Seminar is now available from this guy...




Yes he was suspended...

Now there are some out there who think this approach is appropriate... and will even attack someone then claim to give "facts" but give absolutely none... "Shane Claiborne Meet the Facts"

In the end, the only victims are the ones that are caught in the crossfire... they see Christ in action in people like Shane Claiborne, then see someone come and abuse him and give no reason other than they "HATE" those they disagree with.

Sad,

iggy