More on Atheism...

Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. -- Heywood Broun

A while back I did a post on atheism and gave my three most used “arguments” against the view. Again I am not out to “change” anyone nor am I wanting to get into heavy debate. Yet, the one that most either thought was not strong or was not the best seemed to be the idea that all men are born with the idea of a god that exists and must suppress this view in order to be an atheist. To me this is actually the strongest view as I see that most atheists once did believe in “god” but rejected the idea. I know of not one that started out stating there is no god and then tried to prove their position… which is still at least to me a rather strange thing to do if a god does not exist. Why argue about a god that does not exist if one does not exist? It seems like one arguing that one cannot fly as they are falling from an airplane… trying to convince the other person that they also cannot fly as they hit the ground. If god did not exist then to me at least there need not be any reason to discuss it or to try to convince others that one does not exist.

It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists. --Mohandas Gandhi

Now, I found this idea is not new (at least not original with me) This is called theistic innatism, in fact the idea that there is no god is only recorded back as far as the 5th century bce so it seems that the view that one is born with the view that there is a god has more historical basis. Of course one might argue that superstitions and such also were more prevalent, yet that still does not prove that man is not born with the innate view that there is a god.

Still, as one person stated that he saw this view as not strong… it seems that if I was to ask this person, I bet he would reply his view that god does not exist came out of studying and science, both to me are not anti-god but if one can, would prove god more. I do not see science and faith as incompatible, in fact most of the greatest scientist professed a faith in God. I am not going to go through them now, yet Isaac Newton was one that even wrote a biblical commentary.

Now, I took the view out of Romans chapter one…
In Romans, Paul lays out that man has no excuse, “since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.” And that “men who suppress the truth by their wickedness”. Now, I am not stating that all atheists are “wicked” so please do not take that as what I am stating… What Paul is referring to is those who worshiped creation in place of the True God…

Now Paul does go on to state, “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

If one just looks at creation, then one must realize that there is a design. If there is a design there need be a designer. So, the one thing an atheist needs prove to me is that design can happen without a designer then I will take real look atheism as a valid view.

But, if there is a design, then there need be a designer… even in the natural world, such as the Grand Canyon, in its design, water became the designer of the erosion. Yet, still one must go back to ask how water was designed. Keep working back to the Big Bang and find that somehow something must come out of nothing… which then leads us to Genesis in which God creates all out of nothing.

Now recently a few scientists created matter from light. They have known that this can be done for many years, yet no one has taken the time to do it until recently. Interestingly the very first thing God spoke into existence out of nothing was… light… and from light all matter came.

If there were no God, there would be no atheists. --G.K. Chesterton

Now, to state that one “knows for certain there is no god” then places one into the category of being all knowing… and if that be so, then has make oneself a “god” in and of themselves. Now, I know of no atheists that claim to know all things. Though some are not willing to admit that they are really agnostic, to not know is to state still the possibility of the existence of a god.

To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, "I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge" --Ravi Zacharias

Now, I find this to be true, that one who truly is searching will find their way to a philosophy, and as they dig deeper they will find themselves involved in “religion”… the issue is that a little philosophy will bring us to the idea that man is truly the highest of being… yet, a little more thought will make one realize that this is not the truth. There has to be something or someone higher… the deeper one digs in philosophy they will realize that one can become lost in the faith of man and in all the ideas of man’s philosophy. I see it can shake one to the core, yet in the end if one truly seeking truth, truth reveals itself and pushes on deeper and deeper into the realm of faith. Can a man live as an atheist without faith… no, one must place all faith in one’s own understanding though… and I for one do not think I have that much faith!

A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion. --Francis Bacon

Again, I see that the idea that one must suppress belief in a god has more validity than to not believe. Yet, to believe in a god is not enough to find Truth. One must have faith. Faith is a gift from God it depends totally on what one places this faith in… yet if one cannot beleive in God, to admit that one lacks faith to do so, is the beginning of gaining enough faith for one's path to find Truth.

Be blessed,
iggy

Carrying the Cross... emails from TES

TES, my beautiful wife, received a email going around. Here is the series of picture, below is the email exchange we about it. (You may need to click on it to see it better.)

From: Tes Shelton [mailto:] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 4:24 PM

To: iggy

Subject: RE: The Cross

Is this accurate? What is the cross that we carry? Or do we have a cross to carry?

From: iggy [mailto:iggy@wwdb.org] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 10:57 PM

To: Tes Shelton

Subject: RE: The Cross

I hate this one…

The cross we carry is two things.

One each must carry their own death and in that realize that being dead we need the Life of Christ to live… so on a small level this is true…

BUT!!!!
The other cross we carry is that we partake in Christ’s sufferings and our salvation is perfected… yet to fail in our sufferings does not mean we lose salvation, for that means it then becomes works salvation and not by Grace.

Love ya

From: Tes Shelton [mailto:] Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 8:33 AM

To: iggy

Subject: RE: The Cross

I love you. I’m so blessed to have you as my husband. I love it that you study and think through why you believe what you believe. And, more importantly, that you let the Holy Spirit guide you and teach you His truth. I’m so proud to be your wife.

TES

All I can say is I have a great wife!

be blessed,

iggy

Mike Corley goes to Mars Hill... it was not as he was told.

Mike Corley decided to do what a real Online Discernment Ministry would do... go out and check on all the rumors.

With hit pieces like this one by Ingrid... which seemed more about her own lascivious mind than the reality of what was happening at Mars Hill. I am glad to see someone actual research instead of regurgitate the lies and slander that many others are content with spreading in their protecting of "truth".

Now, many have written about how bad Mark Driscoll is... yet to Mike Corley's surprise... it seemed not as he was told... surprised? Not me!

Here is Mike Corley's surprise.

At least one ODM has actually done some research... I just hope he now realizes that some he has associated in the past with, may not have the gift of discernment they claim...

And KUDOS to you Mike!

be blessed,

iggy

Source: CRN.info

Ken Silva raises missing the point to a new art form

There is a post by Ken Silva at xxxchurch.com who help people with porn addiction. This ministry has helped many people and has even helped some porn-stars find Christ and leave the porn industry. Now, I may not agree with some of their tactics but I do see real fruit coming from this ministry.

But Ken seems to think that Jesus does not love porn-stars or people addicted to porn...

Here is part of what Ken Silva aka "Comment Author proporn Comment Time Apr 11th 2007" (interesting name that Ken Silva chose....) had to say:

"Since this supposed XXXchurch is quite a titillating and very questionable area of “ministry,” which young people would probably think is “cool,” I began to wonder if Rob Bell was involved in some way. Was I surprised to find out that Rob Bell “knew these guys.” Nope. Did it catch me off guard that Rob had been the one who would be instrumental in bringing, ahem, exposure to their “work” for Christ? O, most definitely not! Somehow I just knew Bell would be at the bottom of this spiritual sewer. And sure enough, clever Rob would be the one to come up with the catchy li’l title “Porn Sunday.”"

Ken was hoping to "catch" these "rebellious" emergents in all their vile nastiness... yet it seemed to backfire.

And why had Ken not really pointed this out? Because he would rather continue in the sin of slander against people and ministries that state the truth.

Be sure to read all the 21 (real nasty and rebellious) comments... and you will see the only nasty one is Ken Silva himself.

Blessings,
iggy

If you are having trouble with porn addiction and need help now... Sign Up for Pure Online Now!

Merry Christmas... great video.

Mini Me!

Mini Me!

I don’t get the “substitutionary atonement only" people…

I don’t get the “substitutionary atonement only" people…

1. It is not an “atonement” but a “propitiation” it is the difference between putting a blanket over vomit on the carpet or having the carpet made clean as if it was never messed up. Propitiation is the idea of a ransom given to pay for our sins so that we do not have to collect the “wages” of sin being death.

2. The gospel of Mark is about Christus Victory. To state that that the only view is substitutionary atonement means we need throw out that Gospel as it does not teach that idea, but it teaches the idea of the “suffering King”.

3. Atonement is an Old Testament and old covenant view. “Taking away the sins of the world” is the NT teaching and view. Jesus not only covers us, but also cleanses us… or as Hebrews states:


“Hebrews 9:13-15 “The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”

It seems funny that to teach just “penal atonement only" is to them more “biblical” as you need deny major passages of scripture to make that a “truth”.

If you want to learn more of different views this is a great article to read.

Blessings,
iggy

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas from us to you.

OK This guy usually bothers me... but... from poop emerges

This guy usually bothers me but at poop is emergent too he has an interesting take on Ken Silva and Tony Jones.. though I do not agree 100% I see that not all on Ken Silva's side agree with him and his tactics.

Article: Just so we are clear…

be blessed,

iggy

Oh the inhumanity of it all...

I was asked to show a picture of me as Mr. Incredible.

So here it is.

Now here is the background on this. It was 2004 and I worked as a local car dealership. Their name had "incredible" in it and the movie The Incredibles came out. So we did a promotional in which I was Mr. Incredible. I signed autographs for kids and the local theatres... I think at least 300 autograph pictures. I also did an appearance with the Power Team. No I did not tear any phone books in half! LOL!

Somewhere at one of the radio stations here in Billings, there is a picture of me flexing with the Power Team... if you know of it and can get it for me... I would like a copy.

OK, I am a bit embarrassed about the whole thing, but it was a bit fun to be a superhero for a while.

And no, they took the suit back when we were done...

Blessings,

iggy

One subtle deception of John MacArthur: Bad Quotes

I am amazed that more people do not understand that Truth protects us... we do not protect truth.

John MacArthur states in his book The Truth War...

“It is our duty to guard, proclaim, and pass that truth on to the next generation." [1 Timothy 6:20–21]

Now let's go look at his reference.

"O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge— 21 by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen."

Note how subtle this is... but that is how Satan works!

Yes, Paul is stating to Timothy to "Guard what was committed to your trust.." but does Paul go on to say "go out and fight and expose those who attack truth."? No.

Paul simply states to Timothy to guard Truth by, "avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge..."

Notice the word... "avoiding". It does not nor has ever meant to declare war on others.

My Truth is the Person of Jesus Christ. I see that He protects me... I cannot do anything to protect Jesus for He is God and I am a mere man.

So, my question is this... What kind of god needs protecting? And if that god does, how can a finite man protect an Almighty, all powerful God?

It seems to me that John MacArthur has diminished God from Who He really is in this "truth war" and the more I learn of John MacArthur's theology, the more I wonder if he thinks himself greater than God Himself...

So Ken Silva... What is your beef with Tony Jones?

I am going to just ask this open question.

I have read much of Ken Silva' "false" accusations against many... yet I am wondering what are the specific things Ken holds against Tony?

Now, if you use the "Tony used the "f" word... I will remind you Ken you used the headline,and the quote many more times than Tony has... and in fact I am on record as asking Tony to tame down his language... so let's move on from that one.

Yet, how can you justify the name calling?

What are the facts behind these "names"... that make them so true?

I am holding this out so that you can state your case. So far I see these as slander and lies... but then, it seems you thrive on those things.

So, without making this all about me... let's talk about Tony Jones... and all the facts (which seemed to become opinions as of late) that you have piling up against him.

iggy

Updated: This is an example of Ken's "research" (now opinion) in which as usual he gives only half the story.

Source 1: Ken lies and slanders Bruce.

Source 2: Bruce tells the rest of the story.

So Ken... about the lies and slander (I mean "opinions") concerning Tony... I am still waiting for you to prove your lies and slander as Truth...

YWAM shootings... "we forgive."

I heard about the shootings both at the Denver YWAM base and at New Life Church early this morning.

Our prayers are with all.

The official stand from YWAM is "We Forgive".

It also seems the man responsible has been identified as a former attendee at that YWAM base.

Read more...

Blessings,

iggy

Pray for Bridget Lambert

Janna and Bridget are coworkers. Please take some time to pray for Bridget.

Blessings,
iggy



Bridget Lambert

2:10pm Today

I've covered almost every prayer chain known to man, but I am asking you to pray for my best friend Bridget Lambert.

In October, after struggling with intense headaches for weeks, Bridget was admitted into the hospital. The doctors informed her that she had suffered from a pinpoint stroke and a blood clot lodged behind her left ear.

After almost two weeks in the hospital she was released and told that she would have to continue to take blood pressure medication as well as a high dose of blood thinner. They hoped that the clot would eventually dissolve in the blood stream and things would return to normal. Bridget has been unable to return to work (at the Billings Gazette) over the past 7 weeks and her short term disability is almost up. She has been extremely stressed about losing her job and having so many bills to pay.

On Tuesday she had an MRI and there was no change in the clot so they did a second spinal tap to check the pressure of her spinal fluid. The doctors did tell her that it was not as high as her initial visit but it was the only good news they could offer. They had planned to put a stint behind her eyes to try and relieve the pressure on her optic nerves to try and save her eyesight but the initial appointment eyesight has been deteriorating. We had all been hoping for some baby steps forward but instead she has had to take two big steps back.
Yesterday, Bridget complained of back pain and leg cramps/shooting pain so she was admitted into the hospital last night. The did another scan and found what they are calling "spontaneous internal bleeding" the size of a softball in her lower back on the left side. To reverse the affects of the blood thinner they are shooting her up with Vitamin K to help her blood clot to stop the internal bleeding. This puts her into high risk due to the stubborn blood clot. She is in a lot of pain and is very very scared right now.

Today she recieved the Vitamin K as well as a batch of platelets to hopefully stop the internal bleeding. Because she has been losing so much blood she has become anemic and they have asked her to consider a blood transfusion to refill her blood reserve. If she didn't take the transfusion she would risk bleeding out but by taking transfusion she still risks the chance of contracting blood born pathogens that could harm her.

Please please pray for healing and fantastic doctors to aid her in recovery. This has been a frustrating ordeal for her, her family and friends and she could use every prayer you can give.

Thank you and Merry Christmas to you and yours,

Janna

Janna and Bridget at the 2007 Relay for Life

Devotional: Exchanged Life

EXCHANGED LIFE
By: Major W. Ian Thomas

Christian living is not a method or technique; it is an entirely different, revolutionary principle of life. It is the principle of an exchanged life" not I, but Christ liveth in me" (Galatians 2:20).

This is all part of our Gospel - it is not the Gospel plus! We must not get our terminology wrong. To divorce the behavior of the Christian from the Gospel is entirely false and is not true to the Word of God, yet all too often such is the characteristic of gospel preaching.

I would like to explore with you what is the true spiritual content of our Gospel ­ not just heaven one day, but Christ right now! Christ in you, on the grounds of redemption ­ this is the Gospel! To preach anything less than this must inevitably produce "Evan-jellyfish" ­ folk with no spiritual vertebrae, whose faith docs not "behave!"

Do you remember what James says in his epistle? "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead" (chapter 2:26). The "spirit" there means breath, and a body without breath is dead. Stop breathing ­ and folk will bury you! In other words, a living body breathes, and a living faith breathes, and a living faith breaths with divine action. A living faith breathes with the activity of Jesus Christ. That is why the Lord Jesus, in John 6:29, said, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent."

That is the work of God. It is your living faith in the adequacy of the One who is in you, which releases His divine action through you. It is the kind of activity that the Bible calls "good works," as opposed to "dead works."

"Good works" are those works that have their origin in Jesus Christ - - whose activity is released through your body, presented to Him as a living sacrifice by a faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to the Adamic independence (Romans 12: 1,2).

It is only the life of the Lord Jesus -- His activity, clothed with you and displayed through you, that ultimately will find the approval of God.

From: The Saving Life of Christ. Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House. ©1961.

Goodbye Major...

I just found out that Maj Ian Thomas passed on to be with the Lord last August 1st... somehow I missed this.

Major Ian has been a major influence on me for a few years now. I wish I had had the chance to meet him in person to thank him.

My condolences to his family both imediate family and extended famliy. To read more of what happened click here.

I know Jesus greated Him with open arms...

Goodbye Major... you have blessed me greatly.

iggy

GOD LIVES UNDER THE BED: update

I posted this Tuesday, August 29, 2006 not knowing if it was a true story. Then last Friday I received an email stating this.

Hi Iggy,
Just thought I'd let you know that this is, in fact, a true story. It was written by Kevin's sister 15 years ago. She read it again today at Kevin's memorial service. He passed away on Tuesday after a 13 month battle with colon cancer. But in usual Kevin style, he never complained and the last words he said were "Stay Home. Jesus is coming". And He did. Kevin will be deeply missed by many people. He touched so many lives and we are so gad that he is with his Father.
God Bless.

I went back to re-read the post and found myself weeping (as I remember the first time I read it) yet this time with the realization that it was a very real story about a very real person.

I took a while to respond as I did not really know how to, yet sent this back to "Bonnie" who sent me the email.

Bonnie,

I am so sad to hear of Kevin’s passing, but rejoice that he is with the Lord whom he loved so much. It was quite a while ago I posted that story and with many stories out there I did not know that it was real or not…. But it did touch my heart and I knew I had to share it.

I am very blessed that you took the time to share with me that it was a true story. I am more blessed as I re-read the story and then your email and found myself weeping with both sadness and joy for Kevin… and even though I never knew Kevin, I have seen many other people with handicaps who also seemed to have the same innocent faith that Kevin had and now lives in all the fullness of.

May I share this email with my readers… my only reason is to share that we need sometimes to stop and realize that Jesus’ words are so true, that we can only truly come to God with faith of a child.

Again, my prayers are with you in your earthly lost, but I know that it is the Kingdom of God’s gain… and Kevin was greeted with so much rejoicing as our Lord Jesus held him in the most loving embraced and of all people the words would be, “Well done my good and faithful servant… my friend… my brother… come I have much to share with you here.”

May the Lord of all blessings give you the Grace and comfort you need in this time.

Blessings,
iggy

Please send a note here on this post or an email to me to pass on to Bonnie if this story blessed you in some way. I know the family would love to here it.

GOD LIVES UNDER THE BED

Don't start reading this one until you've got more than 3 or 4 minutes to just "scan" over it.
It deserves a bit of time for some reflection. I envy Kevin. My brother Kevin thinks God lives under his bed. At least that's what I heard him say one night.

He was praying out loud in his dark bedroom, and I stopped to listen, "Are you there, God?" he said. "Where are you? Oh, I see. Under the bed..."I giggled softly and tiptoed off to my own room. Kevin's unique perspectives are often a source of amusement. But that night something else lingered long after the humor. I realized for the first time the very different world Kevin lives in.

Kevin was born 30 years ago, mentally disabled as a result of difficulties during labor. Apart from his size (he's 6-foot-2), there are few ways in which he is an adult. He reasons and communicates with the capabilities of a 7-year-old, and he always will. He will probably always believe that God lives under his bed, that Santa Claus is the one who fills the space under our tree every Christmas and that airplanes stay up in the sky because angels carry them.

I remember wondering if Kevin realizes he is different.


Is he ever dissatisfied with his monotonous life?


Up before dawn each day, off to work at a workshop for the disabled, home to walk our cocker spaniel, return to eat his favorite macaroni-and-cheese for dinner, and later to bed.

The only variation in the entire scheme is laundry, when he hovers excitedly over the washing machine like a mother with her newborn child. He does not seem dissatisfied.

He lopes out to the bus every morning at 7:05, eager for a day of simple work. He wrings his hands excitedly while the water boils on the stove before dinner, and he stays up late twice a week to gather our dirty laundry for his next day's laundry chores.

And Saturdays-oh, the bliss of Saturdays! That's the day my Dad takes Kevin to the airport to have a soft drink, watch the planes land, and speculate loudly on the destination of each passenger inside. "That one's goin' to Chi-car-go!" Kevin shouts as he claps his hands. His anticipation is so great he can hardly sleep on Friday nights. And so goes his world of daily rituals and weekend field trips. He doesn't know what it means to be discontent. His life is simple. He will never know the entanglements of wealth of power, and he does not care what brand of clothing he wears or what kind of food he eats. His needs have always been met, and he never worries that one day they may not be. His hands are diligent. Kevin is never so happy as when he is working. When he unloads the dishwasher or vacuums the carpet, his heart is completely in it.


He does not shrink from a job when it is begun, and he does not leave a job until it is finished. But when his tasks are done, Kevin knows how to relax.

He is not obsessed with his work or the work of others. His heart is pure. He still believes everyone tells the truth, promises must be kept, and when you are wrong, you apologize instead of argue. Free from pride and unconcerned with appearances, Kevin is not afraid to cry when he is hurt, angry or sorry.

He is always transparent, always sincere.

And he trusts God.

Not confined by intellectual reasoning, when he comes to Christ, he comes as a child. Kevin seems to know God - to really be friends with Him in a way that is difficult for an "educated" person to grasp. God seems like his closest companion.

In my moments of doubt and frustrations with my Christianity I envy the security Kevin has in his simple faith.

It is then that I am most willing to admit that he has some divine knowledge that rises above my mortal questions.

It is then I realize that perhaps he is not the one with the handicap . . I am.

My obligations, my fear, my pride, my circumstances - they all become disabilities when I do not trust them to God's care.

Who knows if Kevin comprehends things I can never learn? After all, he has spent his whole life in that kind of innocence, praying after dark and soaking up the goodness and love of God. And one day, when the mysteries of heaven are opened, and we are all amazed at how close God really is to our hearts, I'll realize that God heard the simple prayers of a boy who believed that God lived under his bed.

Kevin won't be surprised at all!

An Open Letter to Matt Slick

Matt,

I wanted to thank you for having Doug Pagitt on. I am also part of the "emerging church". Though I am not a "member" of emergent, I have seen much value in the things they discuss. I see that they are especially of value in the area of Christoplatonism.

I wanted to also thank you for not being rude. So often these type of interviews are reduced to just that. I was a bit worried though with the opening. =) You might also find it interesting that I really appreciate Doug yet do not agree with him on all points... especially in the area of "eternal security". Yet, there are orthodox people on both sides of that issue.

In the ec I hope you realize that there is much room in our conversation. As you might have already noticed there are some that view women pastors are fine and some like Mark Driscoll (who some of us no longer see as "emerging"), who do not see that is fine. Yet, within the "movement" (which is still an in-house debate whether to call it that or if it is one) we are open to challenging one another... with respect.

In regards to Karen Ward, I am not that read up on her myself. She may be considered a "leader" but there are some that consider ME that also... which I have to chuckle over as I am not that much of one if I am! LOL!

Yet, in this case you were unkind and did admit it to Doug. I think you should apologize.
Now, having said that, I agree with you that if she did state that it was OK to not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus then she is in error... and most other emerging/emergent I have run into would not agree with her at all.

Now, how we work though is if she is in error, and this is brought to the table of discussion so to say, she would be challenged by the rest of us. Again, mutual respect is help as one of the highest of values as we view commonly that God places high value on all humans be they believer or not. He sent His Son to die for us so we see that as one of the greatest values.
In this type of discussion we will firmly debate with one another. If one cannot "back their view" biblically... then we will agree to place in the secondary position of "is this an essential".
In this iron sharpens iron... and I am sure Doug will talk with Karen and if it is as you state will discuss this.

As far as your ministry, I agree that you are in a very interesting place. To look for "orthodoxy" and to find whether one is a heretic or not would be tough to do. Yet, still if a person be a Mormon or JW, I would still place love in front of all things as I approached them. Mostly I would allow God to work as I did converse with them. I would challenge their view but not deride the person.

Walter Martin, who I understand mentored you, (unlike that other guy who stated he was mentored by Walter as he listened to a bunch of tapes) stated that this was very important to do... to not put down their leaders or attack their person... but focus solely on their doctrines.

As far as how this is done, I think it depends on the person. I have had to confront unbelievers who were sick from drinking binges... and after the second or third time I ran them to the emergency room I would be straight forward and tell them they needed help... and I would not let them get away with saying they had a "disease". As, I am diabetic and have an actual disease I see that someone who places a substance purposely in their body, as in the case of alcohol is a drunk, not "sick" in the same way as someone with cancer. They need help but they do need to be confronted with their "sin" that is killing them. Cancer never comes in a glass nor did my diabetes. (I understand that this is a bit out of the AA understanding, but the bible calls a drunk a drunk) This may sound harsh but I am meaning that I have built a bit of a relationship... and in that can give that person my honest and blunt opinion. Also, I see that this person is dying and in that do not care to waste much time "just to be nice" though I do not want to be unkind.

I think that Doug was very much in your face, yet you could sense he cared and still had genuine love for you as you talked... I see that this is the way you need to confront others also.

Over all I wanted to thank you as I did. I have been attacked by some very harshly and called an apostate and told I am not saved, just becuase I have a link to Brian McLaren on my website... that is a bit silly as I also have Dr. J Vernon McGee and Chuck Missler. They seemed to not care in my confession of faith in Jesus but only that they hate those they see outside their own narrow belief and doctrine... in fact many of these get confused when I state things like "having a relationship with Jesus" or "must recieve the Life of Christ" which seems to me the most crucial of beliefs one should have as a believer in Jesus.

I wanted to recommend two other "emerging" folk.

Andrew Jones is a great guy and I think you would enjoy interviewing him. He is also known as the Tall Skinny Kiwi. I would also recommend Scot McKnight who is a professor and author and considered to be one of the finest up and coming theologians out there today. His blog is called Jesus Creed like his book of hte same name. Allen Roxburgh of ALLELON would be another person as he is very close to Brian McLaren.

Be blessed,

iggy