~ emerging thought in Montana ~

I have been in a discussion with someone on Twitter discussing 2 Cor 4:4 and that it seemed inconsistent with Paul's theology to state this commonly quoted verse.

For some reason that verse had always bothered me as I saw it did not fit with other verses that Paul wrote.

Like.

Romans 1: 25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Notice it is God doing the deluding? Not Satan. Though I do think Satan plays a part in the turning from the knowledge of God, and adding to the “depraved mind”.

I also noted Paul stating things like:

Romans 3: 30. “since there is only one God,” I wondered why then Paul referred to Satan as the “god of this world”… it seemed that it was a bit of an exaggeration at best! LOL!

But the verses that made me wonder the most was in 1 Cor 8: 4. So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6. yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

If Paul was stating that there is only One God over and over here… and stating that “even if there are so-called gods”, then making a slighted reference to all the many “gods” and “lords” (possibly a reference to Caesar worship?) I just could not see him referring to Satan as a god, even in small letters. It seemed out of character for Paul… though he may at times go to extreme rhetoric as in the “height, width, depth of God’s love”…

Anyway I left it alone for quite a few years, but it still bothered me. Then about a year ago (maybe 3) I was reading Irenaeus and found that he was correcting how this passage should be read. Sorry for all the upcoming cut an past

Against Heresies
Chapter VII.—Reply to an objection founded on the words of St. Paul (2 Cor. iv. 4). St. Paul occasionally uses words not in their grammatical sequence.
1. As to their affirming that Paul said plainly in the Second [Epistle] to the Corinthians, “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them that believe not,”3358 and maintaining that there is indeed one god of this world, but another who is beyond all principality, and beginning, and power, we are not to blame if they, who give out that they do themselves know mysteries beyond God, know not how to read Paul. For if any one read the passage thus—according to Paul’s custom, as I show elsewhere, and by many examples, that he uses transposition of words—“In whom God,” then pointing it off, and making a slight interval, and at the same time read also the rest [of the sentence] in one [clause], “hath blinded the minds of them of this world that believe not,” he shall find out the true [sense]; that it is contained in the expression, “God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world.” And this is shown by means of the little interval [between the clause]. For Paul does not say, “the God of this world,” as if recognising any other beyond Him; but he confessed God as indeed God. And he says, “the unbelievers of this world,” because they shall not inherit the future age of incorruption. I shall show from Paul himself, how it is that God has blinded the minds of them that believe not, in the course of this work, that we may not just at present distract our mind from the matter in hand, [by wandering] at large.

2. From many other instances also, we may discover that the apostle frequently uses a transposed order in his sentences, due to the rapidity of his discourses, and the impetus of the Spirit which is in him. An example occurs in the [Epistle] to the Galatians, where he expresses himself as follows:
“Wherefore then the law of works?3359 It was added, until the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a Mediator.”3360 For the order of the words runs thus: “Wherefore then the law of works? Ordained by angels in the hand of a Mediator, it was added until the seed should come to whom the promise was made,”— man thus asking the question, and the Spirit making answer. And again, in the Second to the Thessalonians, speaking of Antichrist, he says, “And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus Christ3361 shall slay with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy him3362 with the presence of his coming; [even him] whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders.”3363 Now in these [sentences] the order of the words is this: “And then shall be revealed that wicked, whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the presence of His coming.”
For he does not mean that the coming of the Lord is after the working of Satan; but the coming of the wicked one, whom we also call Antichrist. If, then, one does not attend to the [proper] reading [of the passage], and if he do not exhibit the intervals of breathing as they occur, there shall be not only incongruities, but also, when reading, he will utter blasphemy, as if the advent of the Lord could take place according to the working of Satan. So therefore, in such passages, the hyperbaton must be exhibited by the reading, and the apostle’s meaning following on, preserved; and thus we do not read in that passage, “the god of this world,” but, “God,” whom we do truly call God; and we hear [it declared of] the unbelieving and the blinded of this world, that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come.


It really made me start thinking again on all this…

I started to look at the verse again so see what it might really be saying.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Who veiled the gospel? It is our own unbelief. How is the veil removed, by believing in Jesus. We learned all this in 2 Cor 3
The Gospel is veiled to those who are perishing.

I see it should read:

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The God Eternal has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

It then flows so that we now (again as we learned in 2 Cor 3: 16. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.)

Verse 5. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

It is God who blinds the unbeliever so that they cannot see Christ. They can see Christ when God reveals Jesus to them as Paul teaches in 1 Cor 1: 18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Now here is my theory, call it conspiracy if you will. LOL!

Most of us are from the Protestant/reformed view. We spend our time in Calvin and Augustine and other 16th century guys who are well worth the read. I think many manuscripts are mostly from Alexandria which took a Platonist/ Gnostic view point of scripture. Somewhere I think we tossed the baby out with the bathwater in our zeal to attack the Roman Catholic Church. I had not read Irenaeus and when I did it was in my search to follow the disciples of John the Apostle. You might know Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of Ignatius and. So the linage is pretty straight forward as to what was taught from John. I see that maybe we just took to our own traditions instead of looking at our historians of past. Note many are pretty far out there, yet, some that we can see come from apostolic line of teaching, should be considered in their interpretations.


iggy

N. T. Wright

1. On Heaven.

I was a huge Jack Chick fan years ago, but as I grew I did not see things quite like Jack. This was pointed out by a new friend Michael Krahn. I found it compelling on many different levels. Watch it, read the write up on it then let's talk!

Just to be super clear ... YES! I believe in life after death!


I have not read the book "Everything Must Change", so I will not be so foolish as some to comment on a book I have nto read. Yet I have read many of Brian’s other books and listen to hours of lectures and on and on. Much I hear critics say about Brian I have not seen or heard from him. Recently a friend pointed to an article that was a bit disturbing as it was hard to understand what Brian was stating.

The first link was one I was glad to read as it seemed to clear up some things people have said against Brian. I think that most the critics of McLaren do not understand that other views and interpretations are out there about books like The Revelation. It seems that if one cannot grasp that even some interpretations that are considered the “most biblical” (as well as some doctrines” are relatively new in their development and often are based on summations of creeds and commentaries as well as traditions passed on by men. (Not to be confused with the traditions and teachings passed on by the Apostles.)

I do not recommend blindly trusting or believing anyone. Personally there are some political views I may differ from Brian and even some theological views. I hold that though the Revelation is apocalyptical it is also prophetic as it states it is.(“Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy,” Rev 1:3) I also read it as it states, “v19. "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.” I see that though as some see all has already happened, one thing remains, the Return of Jesus as the book states He will. (I do not see the day of Pentecost as the return of Jesus as it is evident in scripture that even after that day the Apostles looked forward to a literal day of Jesus’ return). I see that as in the OT at times there is a “Near/Far” theme. The example is that of the young girl (virgin) who is prophesied to give birth Isaiah (7:14) which is fulfilled in (2 Kings 16:9.) (I will not indulge in the “virgin” debate that claims that Matt was wrong and misused this “prophecy” I simply see that Matthew knew as most do, that a young girl most likely is a virgin…)

Being that Isaiah 7:14 is fulfilled, yet seems to still give more of a promise to be fully fulfilled later I see that this near far theme is carried out through out the bible. Though I see that almost every thing was fulfilled as Jesus stated it would be in that “generation” by 70AD, (Matthew 24:34) definitely gives a problem to those who only hold to the “future” view of Revelation as it then would make Jesus a liar!

Again, use wisdom and trust in the leading of the Holy Spirit. I found more just reading Revelation that lead me out of the “rapture” view. The deeper I looked at the scriptures that supposedly taught this view the less I saw it. (Though if pressed to have to believe the Rapture, I would be mid trib).

I see that we have a continuation of now until the New Creation comes. This earth and heaven are of the fallen creation. I do not subscribe to the “burn it all” idea, though I see that there will be a major meltdown to come… I see that as a purification of sin. The way I explain it is that God is not destroying this creation in the sense of annihilation as some teach. I see that as I will die and be raised again at the resurrection of the dead I will then be clothed in the imperishable and clothed in immortality. I will still be me. Likewise I see that this creation will rise as such and also be restored but even better… or as Jesus stated, “I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” (John 10:10) I see that the Life is in the Son and in that we will rise to New Life in the New Creation as New created beings. The New Heavens and New Earth will be this one but in a much greater Glory. This is not denying that God will do some major things in the end of days rather it is fully acknowledging that there may be some terrible days ahead as God brings the two sided sword of justice. One side to set things right the other to punish those who have done wrong.

We must trust God first and foremost. Especially in that He knows His Word better than anyone. He promises to direct our path which to me means that as we read, there may be paths in the scripture we will never understand. It may be that we are not ready. Believe that God will teach you what He wants you to know. Often I have found God has different priorities than I do in what I think needs to be fixed in me. One point was that I was frustrated with a bad habit of swearing. I could control it most the time, yet I was shocked at times of what would flow out of my mouth! I would further feel condemned by it as I would read that fresh and salt water cannot flow from the same well… Yet, God dealt with me over my angry spirit. In that I found more control as he released me from the things that I would be angry about. (Rather God gave me tools to release anger before it worked its way in me too deeply).

Trust in Gods priorities.

Be blessed,
iggy

I have been in dialog with John Chisham over the last few days. Here is the continuation.

First here is his "Open Response". His words added to mine are the blue ones though it is hard to tell at times. (could you use a brighter color next time? Thanks. )

Here are a few other references just to help it all come together a bit easier.

Ken Silva posted a transcript. It is done by Paula of Purpose Drivel, though Ken seems to have it "copyrighted" so I will not re-post it. So here is the link to Ken.

Here is the original post which has the "interview". With in this discussion a few others have entered and personally added nothing but name calling.

Here is my response to John's response ; )

John,

I am a brother in Christ as I am saved by grace through faith. When I stated that your conversion might be lacking please take that in context and believe me it was not as you are stating above. I stated that in the context of this interview, the explanation of your “experience” lacked clarity and could be contrasted as being a false conversion of works.

Now we are not that far apart in our theology, in fact we are very close, yet I think there are some things you seem to even miss now.

I stated that salvation was by the Fathers drawing so we respond to what He initiates. This is not works anymore than the child “works” in his own conception and birth. The mother is pushing, and the child will react to the contractions, yet the child wills not his own birth any more than we will our spiritual. It is out of a humble spirit we receive Grace by faith. (God gives grace to the humble scripture)

You stated that my definition of Sovereignty lacks depth, but notice that in the end, you came to the same conclusion and agreed with me that you were not as clear as you ought to have been. I affirm that the bible states as you quoted, yet again this is where one need be careful, as English is not the best in some choice of understanding verses’... Another point would be that Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” KJV creates many issues but if taken in other verses we understand that the word is calamity which means more like disasters and such which God uses at times to judge. Yet, if we are not careful then we will create theology that hinders God’s sovereignty instead of give more understanding to it.

Again, as I stated, you contradict the bible as Jesus own words state that God is not judging us, in fact He has given that over to Jesus. So for you to say “God is a righteous judge” while true, as well as true with Jesus, Jesus stated clearly this;

John 5: 22 “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.”

So you need to decide to follow your doctrine that states God will judge men by the Law, or Jesus’ words that “the Father judges no one.” That is your decision.

Again if God is so “bound” by the Law, then you are stating some interesting things.

Man could obey the Law
By obeying the Law; man could be saved by it.
The purpose of the Law would be then to give salvation by works
The law could give eternal life

None of this is true.

Man cannot obey the Law, the Law’s purpose was solely to show we are sinful
We cannot be saved by obedience or our own works. And the purpose of the scripture itself is to lead us to Jesus as Jesus stated in John 5: 39 “You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Again, this is what Jesus states that seem to go against your doctrinal view.

I get it clearly John and I hope you do as I still have my doubts you do… again this is not a jab, but much of what I am stating is spiritually revealed and missed in many theology classes.

When I speak of “New Creation” it is both present reality (physical and spiritual) as opposed to John MacArthur who teaches it to be “only spiritual and in the future”. (That is a direct quote and I can get it for you later if you desire to hear it yourself. The New Creation will have in it a New Earth and a New Heaven so no it is not the present Heaven as this will pass away with the present earth… as Revelation teaches as well as other places in scripture. We will most likely disagree that it is a continuation, but I see it as the same as I will be the same person at the resurrection but in a resurrected body and so the heaven and earth also will be the same but clothed in perfection.

You stated that you disagreed with me that on when regeneration takes place (I think as you went into many other things we agree on.) yet if you disagree, then you disagree that salvation is both instant and a process. You disagree that it involves the renewing of the mind and that it comes to it fulfillment when Jesus returns as Hebrews Hebrews 9:27-28
“27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

So Salvation is not “done” yet, though we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a promise that we are His.

Ephesians 1:11-14 “ 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”
Again, I think you need to re-read what I originally stated that you are stating you disagree with as I am stating as you restated, “salvation being both a settled and progressive event, with all the progress being made as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.” For that is what I was saying when I stated; “Christ's washing is effective for eternity, but while we are still in this dead flesh, daily washing is still required, until that day when no flesh shall remain. The washing of regeneration is like the baptism of the Spirit in Romans 6; we have been regenerated (born again) the renewal is that continued washing, scrubbing us down to look more like Jesus, so that we can be made heirs.”

If you disagree with this then what you are disagreeing with is Jesus own words again as He stated to Peter, “ 10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.” (John 13: 10-11)

But truthfully we agree though you fail to see it for some reason.
. “to believe rightly”… which is a direct quote, I am happy to see that you are learning already! LOL! But I did not take you out of context at all I took you in context and showed you again where you were not stating things clearly as you want from others.
“ I disagree, that is the absolute starting point for all these things. What makes a Christian is repentance and faith in Christ alone, that is being born from above.”

So you are saying repentance is a “work” we must to as it is required for salvation? I hope not. I think you need to flesh out your definition of repentance and contrast it if you are unintentionally making it a “qualifying condition or work.”
Yet for the most part again, we seem to agree on how salvation comes.
Here as I stated. is that you miss that you are preoccupied about myself and Tony and yet state I “hate” when I share my concerns about very serious things concerning salvation of some of your “friends.” For I see that even”a covenant baptism” can mislead and cause one to have a false conversion. Yet, Chris Rosebrough has stated it is “baptismal regeneration” he believes in… are you going to hold him to account over that? I doubt it…
Nevertheless, to attribute the motive of “hate” to me while not so to yourself seems hypocritical… unless you also “hate” Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, and Brian McLaren and so on.
“How do you know what Ken would say? You are judging a person wrongly! You cannot judge Ken's intentions, only his actions! You are dead wrong there buddy. “

LOL!

Yes you are right as Ken has no consistency. If it is against someone he is against, then he will call them names no matter what they show him as proof… he still calls me “semi pelagian” and in fact has many articles against the “arminians” in emergent… such as Doug Pagitt and Rob Bell. (Though I have not come across anything that about Rob Bell myself) I was going to link to this but it seems Ken’s site is down at this moment. I think that his actions should follow his beliefs and in his actions, this is what he has done in the past and there does not seem to be any sign of his quitting. So, again, unless you are advocating that we believe one thing and act another way other than from what we believe I am not sure why you are so worked up…


As far as works we are in agreement, then you also have issue with Ken and Ingrid as they are teaching “works righteousness.” They believe that you need do “things” to be holy and righteous. I do not as my righteousness, holiness and even my obedience is all imputed to me through Jesus Christ. (Romans 4,5,6 and so on)

“I want to live a right life before God primarily, but as part of my role as a Christian leader, I must contend for the faith in the face of false teachings.


Great! That is why I am here talking to you! Awesome… yet now I am wondering why you are taking so much offense in my calling you to clarity and to contend for that same said faith. The issue often, especially with Ingrid is she confuses style and personal preference with God’s holiness.

“Unity can only be found in truth, and truth is a known commodity. We see it in the Word of God, and in the person of Jesus Christ. I am on the side of Jesus, and He is not on the side of a generous orthodoxy. He is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE no man gets to the Father but by HIM.”

Therefore, with this you are “hating” Brian McLaren? In fact, Brian affirms all of this. Yet, we must never have Truth apart from the Person of Jesus Christ Who is truth as you quoted. How do you know Brian is not also on the side of Jesus…

Again, you attribute “hate” to me, yet state things like this… and see that you also can be perceived as having the same motive?

Therefore, I quote you to you;

“Your hatred is shining through here 1John 4:20 Examine yourself”

“I just want the emergers to be Born Again through faith in Christ and make that the focus of their ministry. Despite What Brian, Doug, Rob, and Tony say, we will not all be winding up in heaven or the hereafter unless we, by God's grace, have placed our faith in Christ alone for our salvation. We do not get there through vain philosophies. We cannot get there from Hinduism, Buddhism, practicing yoga, or contemplative prayer. Jesus is the only way. “

Again, I have not seen this other than when you have misquoted someone on your blog or added to their thought what you thought you have seen. Now one is saying that Jesus is not the Only Way to salvation. Yet, there is so much there and you will not see where you are off here so I am not going to go deeper in this now with you.


“I repent daily of my sins, and I cannot be in yoked together with those who do not follow the way of Christ exclusively. I can be friends with them, but I cannot be in covenant relationship with them.”

I personally walk in faith in the forgiveness of sin that Christ gave at the Cross. I believe in His finished works. I confess daily as I agree with God and live in agreement with Him. We have only a light difference here. Yet, to me I hear you are not resting in your own faith and have not accept fully the forgiveness already given as you seek to repent daily. Hebrews 6: states “4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Repentance is a one time thing but confession is forever. If you still repent then you still seek forgiveness of sins. If I offended you once but returned daily asking for forgiveness would you not get a little tired and wonder why I do no accept your forgiveness and move on? God forgave you at the cross.. Once for all you sins forgiven. Do a study on that phrase “once for all” and it will set you free! But, I see that there though I you still ask for forgiveness you already have and I choose by faith to walk in the forgiveness I have been given we both walk in faith in Christ.

“I am attending Masters Divinity School. Tony misspoke, I did not correct him. I wish I could afford Dr. MacArthurs school. I misspoke several times, because I did not know the nature of this interview. If I had at least a scope of the interview, I would have been better prepared.”

Then you do not contend for truth! (just kidding)…

Again, about God being “bound” … God is not bound to anything. For anything God chooses would be just for He is just. It is not out of Justice that God sent His only Son… but out of Love. And since Jesus fulfilled the Law, God is not bound to it nor was He. He loved us so much He became a man and died for us. This Substitutionary atonement (technically the propitiation of our sins which is much more than substitution) Jesus was the lamb of God that took away the sins of the world…

1 John 2:1 “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.”

Since you did not comment on the rest of my statements, we will work out of what you did comment on.

However, notice that you seem to agree and even when you did disagree, you seemed to misunderstand me…

I hope that you can move from this accusatory feelings toward me and know I have no ill will toward you. I also thank you for taking the time to clarify some of you misspoken things and realize that people are people and no one is perfect. And mostly that we need give grace to all.

Be Blessed,
iggy

March 3, 2008 3:33 PM

This is a repost as some have been asking what I believe. It was first posted 9/30/06.

My Values and Beliefs

I believe...in one God, Creator of all things, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that these three are co-eternal and are equal. Colossians 1:16

I believe...Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That He is the Creator and that all things were created through Him. He is coequal with the Father. Jesus lived a sinless human life and offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all men by dying on a cross. He rose from the dead after three days to demonstrate His power over sin and death. He ascended to Heaven's glory and will return again to earth to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Matthew 1:22, 23; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1-5, 14:10-30; Hebrews 4:14,15; l Corinthians 15:3,4; Roman 1:3,4; Acts 1:9-11; I Timothy 6:14,15; Titus 2:13
I believe...that the Bible is the verbally inspired Word of God and without mistakes as originally written. It is the complete revelation of His will for salvation and the only unfailing rule of faith and practice for the Christian life. It is God’s revelation of Who He is. ll Timothy 3:16; ll Peter 1:20,21; ll Timothy 1:13; Psalm 119:105, 160
I believe...that man was created by and for God; that by man's disobeying God, every person incurred spiritual death, which is separation from God, and physical death as a consequence; and that all people are sinners by nature and practice. Genesis 1:27; Psalm 8:3-6; Isaiah 53:6a, Romans 3:23; Isaiah 59:1, 2
I believe...in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit indwelling all believers and thus enabling and empowering the life and ministry of the believer. II Corinthians 3:17; John 16:7-13, 4:16,17; Acts 1:8; I Corinthians 2:12, 3:16; Ephesians 1:13; Galatians 5:25; Ephesians 5:1
I believe...In the Old Testament it was understood that the way to God was through a priest. People went to the temple to give their sacrifice and had access to God through the priest. In the New Testament we are taught that Jesus Christ is our access to the Father and none of us needs to go through anyone - not a priest, a rabbi or a pastor - to reach God. John 14:6; I Timothy 2:5
I believe...Because God gives man eternal life through, Jesus Christ; the believer is secure in salvation for eternity. Salvation is maintained by the grace and power of God, not by the self effort of the Christian. It is the grace and keeping power of God that gives this security. John 10:29; II Timothy 1:12; Hebrews 7:25, 10:10, 14; I Peter 1:3-5
I believe... God is sovereign ruler of the universe, and He is owner of all things. He has made us stewards of His possessions, and therefore man is accountable to God for that which God has entrusted to him. We are called to give ourselves as believers living sacrifices. That means all our resources are to go to God's glory. Giving can be in many forms, from ones time to money. Leviticus 27:30; Malachi 3:10; Exodus 34:26; I Corinthians 16:2 Romans 12:1
I believe... God has redeemed and is giving man dominion through Jesus Christ over the earth making all things on earth as it is in heaven. John 17:4; Matthew 6:10

My Values are…
To be Missional… (from Friend of Missional one of the best sites I have seen on being missional)
Description of a Missional Church

Blessings,
iggy

I don’t get the “substitutionary atonement only" people…

1. It is not an “atonement” but a “propitiation” it is the difference between putting a blanket over vomit on the carpet or having the carpet made clean as if it was never messed up. Propitiation is the idea of a ransom given to pay for our sins so that we do not have to collect the “wages” of sin being death.

2. The gospel of Mark is about Christus Victory. To state that that the only view is substitutionary atonement means we need throw out that Gospel as it does not teach that idea, but it teaches the idea of the “suffering King”.

3. Atonement is an Old Testament and old covenant view. “Taking away the sins of the world” is the NT teaching and view. Jesus not only covers us, but also cleanses us… or as Hebrews states:


“Hebrews 9:13-15 “The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.”

It seems funny that to teach just “penal atonement only" is to them more “biblical” as you need deny major passages of scripture to make that a “truth”.

If you want to learn more of different views this is a great article to read.

Blessings,
iggy

How does Choice work in Salvation?

(Much of this is taken from a comment thread at CRN.info in which we were discussing how choice is part of our salvation I thought it a great discussion. I have taken my comments and added the main point of other’s questions in the article. I have also edited my comments to flow better than in the comment thread. I had not taken time before to really look at what I did believe on this but as I wrote I realized many things. I hope it helps others sort out much of the confusion on this matter though I know full well the debate will go on and on.)

The Father draws men unto Jesus and men seek Jesus out…
It is all a work of the Holy Spirit, yet a man can be drawn to Christ and still walk away as in the story of the Rich young ruler.
One can look at Jesus and not mix faith with God’s word to have a saving belief in God.
Jesus states that we are to seek after the Kingdom of God (Matt 6:33) as well Jesus tells those in Matthew 7:7-11

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
So if one is drawn to Jesus by the Father and asks, seeks knocks… Jesus will and answer is found and open the door…

It is not a matter of either/or but of both…

The context of Matthew 7: 7-11where Jesus states to "seek" actually starts in chapter 5… to say then that in 5:1-2 that all in the crowd were believers.. I might agree, but they believed that they could enter into the Kingdom by the law making them righteous… which again Paul states: Galatians 2:21 21.
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” "

So to say it is to believers… yes it is, but those who saw that by their prayers out of their own righteousness, they could please God… and Jesus states that they need to seek Him… and enter in by faith… not works.

In Acts James speaks about the salvation that has come to the gentiles and clearly states that a remnant of men will seek God.

Acts 15: 13-18

When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me. Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: “`After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ that have been known for ages.

Also to say men do not seek God negates that the Holy Spirit is now active… as Paul stated in Acts 17:24-27

“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

It is by faith we are to seek after God… as Hebrews 11:5-6 states.

“By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
This is but a small sampling of how wrong the idea that men cannot seek after God is… In fact I see that the teaching that men cannot seek God negates and removes the Holy Spirit from the salvation equation is a gross distortion and of satanic origin. For since the Holy Spirit has been poured out men now can seek after God. Before this, God would seek after men individually as in the case of Enoch and Moses and later deal with men by the Law as with the Nation of Israel, yet still on an individual basis if one reads closely. It was never the case of "all men" but of a few men being able to seek God as the Holy Spirit would rest on them individually... but also not permanently.

Now one might ask, if man is free to choose God with no help from God, by his own volition…then why are there plenty of verses like this all throughout the OT and NT?
“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48


Since no one had yet to receive the Holy Spirit … even the disciples… it seems that you have only people that may believe but are not yet sealed.

The difference from the OT to the NT is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Also, again if you understand the Jews did believe, but wrongly… or Paul is stating a lie in Romans 9 by stating that they sought God by works of the Law and not by Faith.
The point I think that is missed is that it is all free will now… it was not under the OT as it was either you were a lost Pagan (unless you were the exception and converted) or of the Chosen Hebrews. But all were under the bondage of sin. Now, since the Cross, sin was judged and died with Jesus on the Cross…

2 Cor 5:14 -21 is very clear on this…

"For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Note a distinction in these verses...

1. That one died for all, and therefore all died.
This is all men it is not just those saved as Paul goes on to include them also…

2. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Paul now includes those who came to faith… and states that they now are new creations… and we should not look at people from a worldly view point…

3. Now this is the message of the Gospel and Kingdom…
God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.
Not just the saved as Jesus died for “all men”.

4. Again the Gospel is about reconciliation… not stopping sinning…
“We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

IF Jesus who had no sin became sin for us… and as sin died on the cross, then sin is dead. Death is the judgment of sin and sin was judged and died in Christ for us… so that we can be reconciled and not have our sins held against us.

Now, to just say that it is the Holy Spirit as some assert… to be just those “elect” but, yet God through Jesus calls “all men”, and draws all men unto Jesus… and men now by free will choose to enter into the Kingdom by works or faith… by self righteous acts or by the finished works of Jesus…. Jesus is the only Way in and it is by Faith… not works… but as Paul pointed out…

Romans 9: 30-33
"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”
As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Now the reason many verses are in the OT stating that man has no free will is because at that time man did not… the Holy Spirit had yet to be poured out on all men…
About the verse in Acts stating”

“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48
The ones appointed entered in by Faith… and appointed can also be “ordained” as it was appointed/ordained by God that man would enter in by faith in Jesus and not by works… so the appointed here are those who entered in by the appointment of faith through Jesus unto eternal life.

My point is not that God does not draw men, but that God now by the out pouring of the Holy Spirit removed sin and now has restored our free will so that we can make the choice of works or faith in Christ Jesus… Salvation is all of God and not of men… but one must still freely choose… and by faith is the only way to freely love God as works only appears to appease God…


Choice is a response to the initiation that God started… it is only a “work” if one is depending on one’s self and not Jesus…. faith is a gift… it to is not a work…and it is the power in which the Holy Spirit draws men to Jesus. At that point a person needs to respond by mixing belief with faith… as Hebrews states. Hebrews 4: 1-2
“Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. “
We need to mix Faith with the message… that is not works as some state by far. It is the acknowledgement that one cannot “work” to please God. It is the realization that there is nothing I can do but fall on the mercy of God.
Jesus stated that He was like the serpent Moses raised up in the desert (John 3:14-15)

“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”
Those who were bitten by the serpent died unless they went to the bronzed serpent on the pole and simply gazed on it. They did not offer sacrifice… but by acknowledging, they were dead, went to the pole and gazed on the serpent for life… Jesus became sin on a pole (for cursed is anyone who is hung on a tree) and all we do is gaze on Him… by faith and are saved.
To say that faith is “works,” is not biblical at all… not is the idea that choice is works. One can never state “I am saved because of my choice”, as without Jesus doing the initial works one then cannot choose to trust in those works over ones own.


Is choosing a work and thus a contradiction as works is then mixed into faith?

I see no contradiction as even Jesus states:
John 7: 17. “If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”
Jesus taught Jews as a Jew under the law... To show that by it righteousness cannot be obtained… it is only to point out that one is dead in their sins. Just as Paul taught… and Peter… and John… and Jude… and James… the OT.
This is the “choosing” that I am referring to… the will of God called predestination. That those in Christ, have chose to do God’s will and not their own… so they are part of the “eternal plan” that God foreknew in Christ…
But, still unlike Calvin’s version… man chooses between his own will or God’s and it must be free to be a choice. In a sense this is much easier to understand once one can set aside their Calvinist or Arminian views and focus on the teachings of the Bible.

We have seen the Father if we see Jesus. Yet, now we see Him only by faith.

By God revealing who He is by showing us Jesus, we still need respond to that. I see it as professing and possessing.

One can believe in Jesus and state so, yet not mix their belief with faith and still not be "saved". They live as practical atheists. Yet, one that professes and then mixes their belief with Faith, has found the Son and Life... in that they found the Son and Life, are now possessed by and possess this Life that brings us salvation.

We are not our own when we come to Christ... and though are free to walk in the obedience of Christ (not our own... but walk by the imputed obedience as we have none of our own) or walk by our own righteousness and be frustrated... though still technically saved must still remember daily we are dead to sin as opposed to when we were dead in our sin.

It is in the relational aspect of our faith we are saved, not in our doctrinal stances... I am not saying "no doctrine, doctrine" whatever that means, but rather that once one comes to life in Christ the "doctrine" is not "head knowledge" or "mental assent", but heart knowledge and receiving a clear conscience and the mind of Christ. He becomes our very Life and we are new creations... the new man.

We are drawn by the Father to Jesus by the Holy Spirit... this was not possible under the Old Covenant as that required one to die before they could get out from under it. Now, we have died in Christ and Jesus fulfilled the Law...every jot and tittle... and abolished it so that we now live in Him and by His righteousness. We are no longer under the ministry of death and condemnation, but the ministry of reconciliation and once one receives that reconciliation, receives Life eternal. If not eternal death for that is the covenant (the covenant of death as Isaiah states) that person chose to stay under.

To be drawn by the Father, is because He poured out the Holy Spirit and that is because Jesus became sin and sin died with Him on the Cross... so that we can become the righteousness of God in Christ.

Be blessed,
iggy

God’s Grace: What is it?

Proverbs 3:34. He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.

Joke:

A man died and went before the pearly gates and of course there was Peter there. Peter greeted the man and began to explain that things are on a point system in order to get in.
The man stated “Great! This will be easy!” and then stated “I never cheated on my wife once…”
Peter stated, “That’s great! 3 points!, anything else”
The man proudly stated, “I never cheated on my taxes, yep paid every cent.”
“Wow!” said Peter, “That is another 2 points!”
Now this went on for about an hour until Peter said, “You have 35 points, anything else?”
“I have nothing more…” said the man.
The man began to realize his situation and trembling said, “It looks like the only way I will ever get in, is by the Grace of God…”
With that the Gates of Heaven swung open wide… and Peter announced loudly, “Enter in!”
Just to warn you we will be looking at a lot of verses today.

Grace the unmerited favor of God.
• This is the most used definition
• Pastor Allen’s definition brings out a fuller understanding of the definition being the way God feels about you… it is God’s emotion of compassionate love toward you.
• I still see that there is even a bigger understanding Grace as I see it as the very substance that holds all things together.

Our God is a Gracious God.

• The character of God is that of compassion. Exodus 33: 18-20. Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory." 19. And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20. But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."
• God’s Character is that of Goodness
• God created all things out His goodness
• Genesis God speaks of creation that “it is good” for it came from Him.

Now fast forward to the New Testament.

• John 1:1-3. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2. He was with God in the beginning. 3. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

• John 1:14. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

• Galatians 5: 22-23. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23. gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
God produces His fruit in us. We do not produce any “good” fruit.

• I touched on this a bit last time I talked, in Matthew 7:15-19. "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17. Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

• If one thinks that they can be good we must remember Jesus’ own words in Mark 10:18 "No one is good--except God alone.”

• To think any goodness comes from the human heart or human effort actually works against God’s grace.

God’s Grace is not by Human works

• The most famous verse of course is Ephesians 2:8-9 8. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9. not by works, so that no one can boast.

• Romans 11:6 if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

In order to have Grace one must have Jesus

• John 1:14. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

• Again Jesus was the “Let there be…” those very first words of God that started the Great Conversation. It is through Jesus all things were created and all things were good… for all things passed through Jesus and passed through Grace and Truth that were in Him.
Some teach of different “graces”

• Some teach that there is more than one grace; I see this as missing that there is one and that is the same grace that was in Christ who was in the Father before all creation.

• This Grace is the very plan of God of salvation, called “the election” that was purposed in Jesus by the Father even before creation.

• Ephesians 1:4-6 4. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5. he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6. to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Law versus Grace

Illustration of Law…

• The law is just: When I was in grade school they still spanked you when you broke the rules. One of the rules of the Southside School I attended was “Do not throw snowballs. Now that is a bit tough for a kid in the first place. One day after a nice snow fall, I was sitting on the swing in the play ground at recess. I suddenly felt a biff on the back of the neck and my neck became cold and wet. I told Tommy to stop as we are not supposed to throw snowballs… and biff he threw another one. Now once is enough, twice is a fight, but I was still under restraint of the Law… so I appealed to it again and biff… third time is a war! I picked up snow and packed it good and threw it… I don’t remember if it hit him or not, but I do remember the voice of the attendant yelling something about us being in a huge amount of trouble. I tried to explain I was only defending myself yet we both still were brought before the board of education… or rather the boards of education.
One was called Big Bertha it was the shorter of the two, the other was the Red Baron. These boards were paddles about 10 inches long and the other about 14 inches long… both had aerodynamic holes drilled in them for more precision. Now the Red Baron got its name of course because when it was used the person was bearing red when it was all done.

I appealed my case of self defense again, and the principal had his principles so he did not listen. I do remember that as I dropped my draws and Tommy did also, He received the Big Bertha… and I counted 1 then 2 swats… then it was my turn and of course I received the Red Baron… and I counted, 1 then 2 then to my surprise… 3 swats! Man… how was that fair?

• The Law is just and it has no mercy. It is what it is and one under must suffer the consequences even if the excuse for breaking it is a really good one like self defense from a snowball assault.

• James 2: 10. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

• Romans 9: 30-33 talks of those under the law stumbled over its purpose and those who did not even seek God were found by God by His grace. 30. What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31. but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33. As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." That stumbling Stone is Jesus.

• The Law was a “school master” that leads us to Jesus. (Galatians 3:24) In fact it is actually the slave that was in charge of the child to help them learn the essentials of life… after the child had matured there was no need for the slave to continue his teachings. This is true of the Law it is to lead us to Jesus and in that we are mature… though this is the beginning of a New Life (in capitals)

It is by Grace through faith we are saved.

• After placing one’s faith in Jesus we are no longer under the Law but under
Grace.
• This grace is all in Jesus and is Jesus just as Jesus is literally truth incarnate Jesus being filled with Grace and Truth embodied both..
• Jesus is also in “very nature” God. (Philippians 2: 6)
All that is, is of Christ, through Christ and for Christ…
• The eternal plan we that we would be “in Christ”
• The creation was all through Christ
• And we were created to be God’s image and that is for Christ. As we now are being transformed into His image.

There are many misconceptions our there about God’s grace.

• Some think and I was taught that Grace saved us, yet we must maintain our salvation… Yet, Paul states that is not true in Galatians. Galatians 3: 3. Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
• Some teach that we can add to our own righteousness yet that negates grace as we are giving the righteousness of Jesus in exchange for our own.
• Some teach that grace is like a bar of soap and that we only use it when we sin…
These are all lies.
• Grace is what saves us and keeps us… it sustains us and transforms us. I personally believe that God maintains our salvation and we cannot add to it by anything we do.
• Some are in bondage to the lies that are taught and this is why Jesus came to set those in captive free.
• If you are under this type of teaching (which is not happening here) I recommend getting out from under it.

Grace is not a license to sin.

• The biggest fear that some have of the freedom that come from grace is that they see it as a license to sin
• Some even took Paul’s words that stated that where sin was, Grace abound even more as a mandate to sin more!
• Paul stated that was not the intention at all of grace…

Grace is to set us free to walk in the righteousness of Christ Jesus

• Romans 5, 6, 7 all emphasize that we died to sin.
• Romans 6:9 states this: For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
• Since He cannot die again and we are in Christ… we will not die again also.

The Promise of the Resurrection.

• This is the promise of Grace… Romans 5:10. For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
• We are saved from death to experience new Life in Christ… this is the Life of the same resurrection of Jesus.
• This resurrection is the power to transform Lives.


Grace is meant to give away

• As we have been forgiven… which is by grace… we also are to forgive by grace.
• Colossians 3:13 -14. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Now this may sound funny to some of you… but I forgive you. I forgive you of all your sins in the Name of Jesus. Now all I ask is that you rise in the Newness of Life and walk in the very Life of Christ Jesus.
You were once dead because of your sins, but now you are reconciled to God. In that your sins died with Jesus on the Cross… and I close with this passage. I hope that you actually pray this passage of scripture as I read it.

2 Corinthians 5: 14-21

For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteous of God.

More on the so called “truth war”…


My issue is that John MacArthur seems to miss that Jesus IS the Truth and He is not at war but has passed on the ministry of reconciliation to us... with that we are to contend for the faith... contend is to strive for...

JM teaches we are to "defend" the truth... and if Jesus is truth how can any mere man defend Jesus? Also, it states nowhere in scripture to "defend" truth... it says we are to contend for the faith.. (I have recently written on this here)

The difference between defend and contend is this...

A champion boxer defends his title... but a contender strives to win the title but has yet to attain it.

We are to defend the Gospel. but that defense is not about bashing people with "truth" rather, it is about being ready to give an answer to the hope (Jesus) that is within us. And we are to do this with humility and gentleness and not be like the world whose tool is of Satan called "war".

God is not the father of war. Satan is, for he is the destroyer... God is the Creator... to declare war is to align oneself on the side of Satan.

Now, before one quotes a passage about God telling the Hebrews to "kill them all" it was because God promised to curse those who curse them and bless those who blessed them... and on occasion a pagan people who did no know God, were blessed by Him... as in the case of Jonah.

God is not about war... he is the God of Peace... of Love and reconciliation... to attach a satanic thing as war is an abomination.

God is our defender and Truth needs no defending as it is more powerful than lies just as darkness flees the Light.

I just cannot see how one can justify war and declare it in God's name... God fulfills His promises and all the wars in he OT are about keeping the promise to Abraham so that God’s grace will be known to all men.

Be Blessed,
iggy