~ emerging thought in Montana ~

Just woke from a funny and strange dream.

I was on a tour bus with Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, Andrew Jones and a couple of other guys going to a conference of some sort. I realized I was the only one that did not have a laptop! I was very concerned over this so called Bob Hyatt for advise. He told me to just buy a pen and paper notebook. Bob is very smart! LOL!

I just woke up laughing over it! It was pretty absurd.

iggy

Tony Jones and pastorboy... the finished product. This is part of Tony Jones' “On the Road with Trucker Frank” series today, webisode 5 that promotes Tony's book "The New Christians".

These have been really good.




Be sure to watch them all.

To find the interview between Tony and John (pastorboy) you can see it here in it's unedited form.

Update: You can read a little more at CRN.info

Be blessed,
iggy

I have been in dialog with John Chisham over the last few days. Here is the continuation.

First here is his "Open Response". His words added to mine are the blue ones though it is hard to tell at times. (could you use a brighter color next time? Thanks. )

Here are a few other references just to help it all come together a bit easier.

Ken Silva posted a transcript. It is done by Paula of Purpose Drivel, though Ken seems to have it "copyrighted" so I will not re-post it. So here is the link to Ken.

Here is the original post which has the "interview". With in this discussion a few others have entered and personally added nothing but name calling.

Here is my response to John's response ; )

John,

I am a brother in Christ as I am saved by grace through faith. When I stated that your conversion might be lacking please take that in context and believe me it was not as you are stating above. I stated that in the context of this interview, the explanation of your “experience” lacked clarity and could be contrasted as being a false conversion of works.

Now we are not that far apart in our theology, in fact we are very close, yet I think there are some things you seem to even miss now.

I stated that salvation was by the Fathers drawing so we respond to what He initiates. This is not works anymore than the child “works” in his own conception and birth. The mother is pushing, and the child will react to the contractions, yet the child wills not his own birth any more than we will our spiritual. It is out of a humble spirit we receive Grace by faith. (God gives grace to the humble scripture)

You stated that my definition of Sovereignty lacks depth, but notice that in the end, you came to the same conclusion and agreed with me that you were not as clear as you ought to have been. I affirm that the bible states as you quoted, yet again this is where one need be careful, as English is not the best in some choice of understanding verses’... Another point would be that Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” KJV creates many issues but if taken in other verses we understand that the word is calamity which means more like disasters and such which God uses at times to judge. Yet, if we are not careful then we will create theology that hinders God’s sovereignty instead of give more understanding to it.

Again, as I stated, you contradict the bible as Jesus own words state that God is not judging us, in fact He has given that over to Jesus. So for you to say “God is a righteous judge” while true, as well as true with Jesus, Jesus stated clearly this;

John 5: 22 “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.”

So you need to decide to follow your doctrine that states God will judge men by the Law, or Jesus’ words that “the Father judges no one.” That is your decision.

Again if God is so “bound” by the Law, then you are stating some interesting things.

Man could obey the Law
By obeying the Law; man could be saved by it.
The purpose of the Law would be then to give salvation by works
The law could give eternal life

None of this is true.

Man cannot obey the Law, the Law’s purpose was solely to show we are sinful
We cannot be saved by obedience or our own works. And the purpose of the scripture itself is to lead us to Jesus as Jesus stated in John 5: 39 “You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Again, this is what Jesus states that seem to go against your doctrinal view.

I get it clearly John and I hope you do as I still have my doubts you do… again this is not a jab, but much of what I am stating is spiritually revealed and missed in many theology classes.

When I speak of “New Creation” it is both present reality (physical and spiritual) as opposed to John MacArthur who teaches it to be “only spiritual and in the future”. (That is a direct quote and I can get it for you later if you desire to hear it yourself. The New Creation will have in it a New Earth and a New Heaven so no it is not the present Heaven as this will pass away with the present earth… as Revelation teaches as well as other places in scripture. We will most likely disagree that it is a continuation, but I see it as the same as I will be the same person at the resurrection but in a resurrected body and so the heaven and earth also will be the same but clothed in perfection.

You stated that you disagreed with me that on when regeneration takes place (I think as you went into many other things we agree on.) yet if you disagree, then you disagree that salvation is both instant and a process. You disagree that it involves the renewing of the mind and that it comes to it fulfillment when Jesus returns as Hebrews Hebrews 9:27-28
“27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

So Salvation is not “done” yet, though we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a promise that we are His.

Ephesians 1:11-14 “ 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”
Again, I think you need to re-read what I originally stated that you are stating you disagree with as I am stating as you restated, “salvation being both a settled and progressive event, with all the progress being made as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.” For that is what I was saying when I stated; “Christ's washing is effective for eternity, but while we are still in this dead flesh, daily washing is still required, until that day when no flesh shall remain. The washing of regeneration is like the baptism of the Spirit in Romans 6; we have been regenerated (born again) the renewal is that continued washing, scrubbing us down to look more like Jesus, so that we can be made heirs.”

If you disagree with this then what you are disagreeing with is Jesus own words again as He stated to Peter, “ 10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.” (John 13: 10-11)

But truthfully we agree though you fail to see it for some reason.
. “to believe rightly”… which is a direct quote, I am happy to see that you are learning already! LOL! But I did not take you out of context at all I took you in context and showed you again where you were not stating things clearly as you want from others.
“ I disagree, that is the absolute starting point for all these things. What makes a Christian is repentance and faith in Christ alone, that is being born from above.”

So you are saying repentance is a “work” we must to as it is required for salvation? I hope not. I think you need to flesh out your definition of repentance and contrast it if you are unintentionally making it a “qualifying condition or work.”
Yet for the most part again, we seem to agree on how salvation comes.
Here as I stated. is that you miss that you are preoccupied about myself and Tony and yet state I “hate” when I share my concerns about very serious things concerning salvation of some of your “friends.” For I see that even”a covenant baptism” can mislead and cause one to have a false conversion. Yet, Chris Rosebrough has stated it is “baptismal regeneration” he believes in… are you going to hold him to account over that? I doubt it…
Nevertheless, to attribute the motive of “hate” to me while not so to yourself seems hypocritical… unless you also “hate” Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, and Brian McLaren and so on.
“How do you know what Ken would say? You are judging a person wrongly! You cannot judge Ken's intentions, only his actions! You are dead wrong there buddy. “

LOL!

Yes you are right as Ken has no consistency. If it is against someone he is against, then he will call them names no matter what they show him as proof… he still calls me “semi pelagian” and in fact has many articles against the “arminians” in emergent… such as Doug Pagitt and Rob Bell. (Though I have not come across anything that about Rob Bell myself) I was going to link to this but it seems Ken’s site is down at this moment. I think that his actions should follow his beliefs and in his actions, this is what he has done in the past and there does not seem to be any sign of his quitting. So, again, unless you are advocating that we believe one thing and act another way other than from what we believe I am not sure why you are so worked up…


As far as works we are in agreement, then you also have issue with Ken and Ingrid as they are teaching “works righteousness.” They believe that you need do “things” to be holy and righteous. I do not as my righteousness, holiness and even my obedience is all imputed to me through Jesus Christ. (Romans 4,5,6 and so on)

“I want to live a right life before God primarily, but as part of my role as a Christian leader, I must contend for the faith in the face of false teachings.


Great! That is why I am here talking to you! Awesome… yet now I am wondering why you are taking so much offense in my calling you to clarity and to contend for that same said faith. The issue often, especially with Ingrid is she confuses style and personal preference with God’s holiness.

“Unity can only be found in truth, and truth is a known commodity. We see it in the Word of God, and in the person of Jesus Christ. I am on the side of Jesus, and He is not on the side of a generous orthodoxy. He is the WAY the TRUTH the LIFE no man gets to the Father but by HIM.”

Therefore, with this you are “hating” Brian McLaren? In fact, Brian affirms all of this. Yet, we must never have Truth apart from the Person of Jesus Christ Who is truth as you quoted. How do you know Brian is not also on the side of Jesus…

Again, you attribute “hate” to me, yet state things like this… and see that you also can be perceived as having the same motive?

Therefore, I quote you to you;

“Your hatred is shining through here 1John 4:20 Examine yourself”

“I just want the emergers to be Born Again through faith in Christ and make that the focus of their ministry. Despite What Brian, Doug, Rob, and Tony say, we will not all be winding up in heaven or the hereafter unless we, by God's grace, have placed our faith in Christ alone for our salvation. We do not get there through vain philosophies. We cannot get there from Hinduism, Buddhism, practicing yoga, or contemplative prayer. Jesus is the only way. “

Again, I have not seen this other than when you have misquoted someone on your blog or added to their thought what you thought you have seen. Now one is saying that Jesus is not the Only Way to salvation. Yet, there is so much there and you will not see where you are off here so I am not going to go deeper in this now with you.


“I repent daily of my sins, and I cannot be in yoked together with those who do not follow the way of Christ exclusively. I can be friends with them, but I cannot be in covenant relationship with them.”

I personally walk in faith in the forgiveness of sin that Christ gave at the Cross. I believe in His finished works. I confess daily as I agree with God and live in agreement with Him. We have only a light difference here. Yet, to me I hear you are not resting in your own faith and have not accept fully the forgiveness already given as you seek to repent daily. Hebrews 6: states “4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Repentance is a one time thing but confession is forever. If you still repent then you still seek forgiveness of sins. If I offended you once but returned daily asking for forgiveness would you not get a little tired and wonder why I do no accept your forgiveness and move on? God forgave you at the cross.. Once for all you sins forgiven. Do a study on that phrase “once for all” and it will set you free! But, I see that there though I you still ask for forgiveness you already have and I choose by faith to walk in the forgiveness I have been given we both walk in faith in Christ.

“I am attending Masters Divinity School. Tony misspoke, I did not correct him. I wish I could afford Dr. MacArthurs school. I misspoke several times, because I did not know the nature of this interview. If I had at least a scope of the interview, I would have been better prepared.”

Then you do not contend for truth! (just kidding)…

Again, about God being “bound” … God is not bound to anything. For anything God chooses would be just for He is just. It is not out of Justice that God sent His only Son… but out of Love. And since Jesus fulfilled the Law, God is not bound to it nor was He. He loved us so much He became a man and died for us. This Substitutionary atonement (technically the propitiation of our sins which is much more than substitution) Jesus was the lamb of God that took away the sins of the world…

1 John 2:1 “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.”

Since you did not comment on the rest of my statements, we will work out of what you did comment on.

However, notice that you seem to agree and even when you did disagree, you seemed to misunderstand me…

I hope that you can move from this accusatory feelings toward me and know I have no ill will toward you. I also thank you for taking the time to clarify some of you misspoken things and realize that people are people and no one is perfect. And mostly that we need give grace to all.

Be Blessed,
iggy

March 3, 2008 3:33 PM

An Open Letter to John Chisham aka Pastorboy

John,

I just listened to Tony’s interview with you on your blog, The Down Grade and it was very revealing.

First off I want to say you seem a very nice guy and very personable… this does not always translate on the blogosphere or in the forums we both tend to travel. I appreciate that you are not as much on the attack as I had thought you were… and please as you read this realize I have a friendly smile and do so in a way that I hope is as a friend and brother in Christ and not an enemy. This is not an attack on you at all... just some observations.

Man there are some major errors in your theology! I mean that in the nicest way…

Let me explain one area for starters…

God is sovereign… I hope we agree.

Yet you state that there are some things God “cannot do” like lie.

You have created a major contradiction. For if God is sovereign, then nothing is impossible. If God cannot do something and is “bound” to it, then God is subject to the thing He is “Bound” to… God is not longer sovereign… the thing He is bound to becomes sovereign over God.

Now, it is not that God “cannot do” this or that, but “will not” do something as it is against His nature to do that thing. So you are limiting your Sovereign God and making him less than sovereign. If God is not sovereign then He cannot be just, but must bow to the justice of the thing He is bound to. God will not do some things as it is against His Character. He does things because of His Name as it is because of His character to do or to not to do. If you take away God’s will and bind Him in anyway, then He cannot be sovereign. God may limit Himself as He did in the incarnation as Jesus emptied Himself (Philippians 2:6-7) and became totally dependant on the Father by the Holy Spirit. (John 5:19)

Get that so far?

God in Truth….

God is Truth and Jesus is the Truth Incarnate. To know Truth we need to know Jesus. We do not approach God from our view of Truth but from His. Jesus states in John 5: 39-40. “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

Without the Person Who is Truth Incarnate and without first having the Life that is in the Son you cannot have Truth. We may have a perception of Truth but it will only be relative to our own limited knowledge. So to say that we are to seek God in Truth is backwards… God reveals His Truth to us and we gain understanding of Truth by that revelation by what is called the “renewing of the mind”. (Romans 12:2) This is called regeneration and is the process in which we are transformed on this side of the New Creation until we receive our New Bodies in the fulfillment of the New Creation.

That is why to place regeneration ahead of salvation is a bit dangerous as it implies one has already arrived. As we are “Born of Heaven” or “Born from above” which is the literal translation of being “born again” we begin the process of regeneration that comes to its fulfillment when we are in the New Creation. (Titus 3:5) You might note in Titus 3:5 that it is “the washing” which is not the same as “having been washed” it is a process that begins and continues until we are “renewed” by the Holy Ghost at the Resurrection, as stated in verse 7 if you stay in context.

So we may agree that one need be born of heaven, yet I think that you miss the nuance of what is actually going on by the system of theology you use.

It is not as you stated. “to believe rightly”… in fact, you miss the subtle nuance of the passage in which it is that if one believes they are not condemned and in that if they do not believe they are condemned already. It is not in the “belief” but the person that one is saved. Or as Jesus stated, “so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” (John 3 14-15) So what you have done and is done most often unintentionally is switch the focus from belief in Him to being saved by one’s “Belief” and even more narrow, a “rightly believed, belief” … and this is what Plato taught and was known as Gnosticism… to believe in our own beliefs or abstract thoughts or the immaterial … as if it was a higher reality than the material. This is dangerous as it is subtly moving salvation being based on “the Person of Jesus Christ come in the flesh” to “immaterial abstract beliefs” and as John teaches in 1 John 4: 2. “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3. but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.” So if I was not as nice as I was I would point out that you have allowed the Spirit of anti Christ replace the Person of Jesus if you assert that it is our belief that saves us… of course I do not think you believe that, but as I listened to you talk to Tony Jones… that is exactly what you stated and I heard.


Now, “What makes a Christian” is not as important as how one is brought to and finds salvation. Often what makes a “Christian” is reduced to being religious. Jesus stated that we are to believe and do. Not just believe. So much focus is on just believing and not doing. In fact much of the doing is man made busy work… and misses the “works of God” done in and through us.

Yet here you also stated that some confess things like "baptism saves us"... and yet, there are those like Chris Rosebrough who goes to the Lutheran church... and believes just this! Yet, you are more concerned that Tony thinks that most do not "think" this way, while you ignore Chris Rosebrough teaching others what you have just condemned... http://www.blogger.com/www.extremetheology.com

I know you will then say, that you are not responsible for Chris, yet then how are you responsible for Tony or me or anyone for that matter?

I see an agenda a mile wide and in a huge steaming pile and the consistent refusal to face your "comrades in arms". In fact as you stated you are a Cal-Minian, which is fine with me, yet Ken Silva would state flat out you are a semi-pelagian and have a man loving man based faith… and as I listen to you I would actually agree!

Now as I listen to Ingrid and Ken, Ingrid teaches a gospel of "works righteousness" as well as Ken Silva who teaches so many things that not only condemn emergents, but almost every single person who contributed to Christian History!

Again, you seem to be blind to all that... and focus on the gnat while the camel swallows you.

You are in the minority and in that minority there is a huge contradiction. You have Lutherans and Calvinists saying that we must be like them, when historical Luther did not like Calvin though Calvin liked Luther... Zwingli agreed with all points with Luther except over the Lord's Supper and Luther refused to talk to Zwingli ever again after their meeting.

So, which tradition of man are we supposed to follow all in the name of being reformed?

Again, if someone on your "side" studied some history there might be a breakthrough... we might find common ground and actually seek real Unity in the faith.

Did you know according to Dr David Calhoun at Worldwide Theological Seminary, which is a reformed school that the teaching of Grace might have been lost if it was not for the Christian Mystics? That these men inspired Augustine, Aquinas, St Bernard, which inspired Luther, and Calvin and all the great reformers?

What we have is a huge lump of ignorance attacking others out of their ignorance...

Did you realize that the one who gave us St Anthony of the Desert also was instrumental in giving us the present canon of scripture as well as the Nicene Creed?

Again, this is how dangerous people like Ken Silva and Ingrid are...

Did you know that Ingrid pushed a form of Contemplative prayer on her own blog while attacking others for practicing it?

I mean you guys always attack the Emerging church on thing and call us to be like you, yet we look at history and wonder which "you" are we to be? It seems that you can't even decide which one you should be... and you want us to be like you, and you claim all this certainty?

I stand here again calling you and your friends to repentance in the Name of Jesus... that you would seek Unity in the Faith in Christ and not around your man made indecisive doctrines.

The bottom line is that when I listened to you speak and noted that you are attending John MacArthur’s Masters Institute… working on a Masters degree… and you state that the emerging church or emergent are “hard to nail down” or “some squishy or untidy language being used” and I hear you contradict yourself all over and as I pointed out… I wonder what is being taught at that and other seminaries.

Again, John this is not meant to be harsh or mean or whatever, but just what I have observed and heard from your camp and from you.

Now realize we have not even gotten into your view of the atonement and how you seem to deny the finished works of Christ on the Cross by stating that God is “bound” to punish those according to the Law. In fact you contradict Jesus own words by saying that God is bound to “judge” mankind… John 5:22 flat out states the contrary to your assertion. “Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son” is what the bible teaches. In fact Jesus goes on to say that “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (you might recongnize John 3:17 there) to condemn means that Jesus would judge it, yet scripture also states, “-those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” (John 5:29) but what you are missing is who and how people who do evil will be judged. “You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. (John 8:15-16) which leads us to how one will be judged, "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” (John 12: 47-48)

First notice why one will be judged besides doing evil. It is because they rejected Jesus, they are not judge because God is bound by the Law… it is because they rejected Jesus.

Second, notice that it is by the Words that Jesus spoke… for as scripture states, “The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace.” (Romans 8:6). Jesus dealt with sin on the Cross and in with that we are only faced with the wages of Sin… which is death. What do dead men need most? Life! The Life is in the Son… Christ died “once for all” or as scripture states, “he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself”. Notice that last phrase, as it is very important in understanding the Cross… “to do away with sin” or as John the Baptist stated, “Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. You confuse the propitiation of sin with salvation, for as Roman 5:10 plainly states; “For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”

We are saved through His Life… yet you are still saying that God is bound by the Law that Jesus fulfilled and must punish mankind by that demands of the Law. This is not the proper understanding of the Law at all. The Law was to reveal sin and show that wrath was stored up for us, yet instead we find God is longsuffering and kind and gave his only Son to die in our place so that we may have new life by the power of the Resurrection. People who reject Jesus reject their own salvation. It is that simple.

There is much more John that I would love to talk about with you. I do hope this will lead you into a deeper understanding of what our great faith is about and that we share.

Be blessed,

iggy

Of all at Emergent, Tony Jones has been one that intrigued me the most. I really like much he offers at Emergent Village such as the Plato Smackdown and other podcast dealing with philosophy and religion.

With that I had some great anticipation when heard he had a book come out. Now, I caution that like other "Emergents" Tony is but one voice in a much larger conversation. I do see heavy influence by Brian McLaren both from the title to the much that is spoken about by in New Kind of Christian as we flash forward and find the pioneers who blazed trails and also took the arrows.

I was not disappointed with Tony's book. I see though as I look around the web (I usually try not to as I am about to write a review, yet for some reason I did...) I see that the chapters Tony talks about the "chickens" seem to miss the mark with some. It seems some people miss the understanding of stewardship and think Tony is "out to save the chickens" truthfully I saw that chapter about saving Christianity from consumerism... not just consumerism, but wanton destruction and total disregard for God's creation. The own took to heart his business, the officers, thought it a joke to worry about the humane slaughter of chickens... and many of them were "Christians". To me to understand that (which seemed a simple illustration) one would begin to grasp the issues we see as emerging... Christians.

My favorite point that Tony makes is how he explains "Absolute truth" I won't spoil it, but suffice it to say, I wish I have the simple illustration to explain why I see that the biblical definition of Truth needs no "qualifier" and to add to it, actually takes away from it and adds more issues than if we just stood on the bibles definition. This is not to throw out "absolutes" rather to gain that Truth is a Person... Jesus Christ... and not a detached abstract thought.

If one is trying to get an understanding on the "movement" this will give a bit more to the grand puzzle. But, realize as I already stated, this is a grand mosaic of many conversants. To say this book wraps it all up neatly, would be misleading, yet it will help flesh out the misunderstandings that are out there. (unless you get stuck thinking about saving chickens for Jesus and miss the point!) = )

For other voices about the book..

From Julie to Ken with Love...

In the flare up of tempers... it seems that at least some have come to their senses... Ken has relegated all his careful so-called "research" to just "opinions" and Julie who seems to be the type of wife any many would want in their corner, has now taken the higher road.
So here is part of the letter to Ken, Ingrid and Paula...

"Dear Ken, Paula and Ingrid,Love and blessings to you. Let us today post this on your various sites, atone the hate and start the love of Christ, that we all want to emulate. let us today, start talking lovingly and respectfully and “kill the hate” between us once and for all.

What do you say?"

Read the rest here: From Julie



Oh and BTW, Ingrid is on record for apologies at times yet Ken has yet to apologize for much of anything... including his defamation of me by stating publicly I am not "saved" and teach "semi-pelagian" doctrines... (I still forgive you Ken)

Now also Tony has an article in where he states what type of people like Ken really are.

"OK, so some of you were perplexed with consternation over the dust-up with He Who Shall Not Be Named. Thanks for your concern. (No thanks to those of you who are truly mean-spirited.)As I’ve tried to explain to Julie, the people who voraciously blog against me and my friends don’t really care about “grace and peace” (though they sometimes sign off their comments that way). Instead, they fear that I am “nice-ing people right to hell.” In other words, saving people from eternal damnation is more important than manners."

Read more here: Moving On

Tony has a new book out and as soon as I am able I will be review it for you... I have "thumbed" through it though and have had a good laugh (in a good way) as he shows what "Emergents" think about "truth" and "absolute truth"... I think I am going to like the book. = )

I came across this post which I found a bit "humorous" only that it is soooo true and that the "apprising" articles mentioned are so thinly veiled I had to laugh at it.
It is rather good though...
What Response to Slander Campaign


I had a little run in with the past as I came across the notorious "Tony Jones dropped the "f" bomb" article on CWN I had a bit of a kick at the comments section which should let everyone know how people really feel about Ken and his "ministry". Note that this is a Ken Silva friendly organization that let's him post his missives...

I hope Ken will start getting the message... Here are some of my favorites.

"Posted On: 08/02/07 03:26:23 PMAge 24, KS"repugnant Emergent punks"--really, Ken? You're honestly referring to another human being in such terms, albeit a person you disagree with, rather vehemently obviously? I shudder at the hatred your posts convey. You criticize Tony Jones for cussing and you turn right around and insult him unashamedly. I wouldn't want my pastor to cuss, but neither would I want my pastor to encourage hateful comments and hateful attitudes. Perhaps the words of the children's song are appropriate for you, Ken--"Be careful little mouth what you say."

"Posted On: 04/06/07 09:28:27 AMAge 40, MN Ken, I wonder if you realize that 100 years ago or 200 years ago or whenever, that even the most conservative church in America (yes yours) would be considered 'heretical' by the standards of the Christian community of that era. From the way you dress, the things you allow and yes, even on multiple doctrinal issues, that of course we see now as 'non-essential'. So is it really helpful for you to continue to act as though you are the one guy and church that has it all right, that knows God's mind perfectly? How can you be so confident? God has made Himself known, I agree, but there is mystery, we don't have all the answers, we're human, we CAN'T. I really can't buy your critique here and a lot of what I see on this website. May I remind of you of one simple fact, Mr. Author? There are countless people who have come to a saving knowledge of Christ as their savior through what you have named "The Emergent Cult." It seems to me that if you are going to keep other Christians accountable in a Biblical manner, you will do it in a way that does not discourage these young believers. You need to point out the problems you see in the Emergent set of beliefs, but you must do it in Godly love. "

"Ken Silva, it seems to me, is fiddling while Rome is burning. "

"Posted On: 04/05/07 11:17:04 PMAge 25, CA Ken Silva needs to be silenced. He is only trying to divide the christian church. Also why is he afraid of criticism, by not letting anyone post comments on his blog? Ken, please stop. You are giving "christian" and "silva" a bad name."

Posted On: 04/02/07 02:02:16 PMAge 76123, TX Your article deeply saddens me. The hatred, the name-calling... I see and hear no Love in it. I always want to be so aware myself of Pharisee-ism, and I'm sure that you do as well. You might find it very revealing to take a more humble look at "the other side," with no more than a desire to hear and understand. As with the Pharisees, sometimes God offends the mind to reveal the heart. Attitudes in articles like yours are one of many reasons that I have found sanctuary within the type of community you would call a cult. I do not pretend that my church seeks or follows God perfectly, but we are seeking and following Him as best we know and can. We try to show deference where there is disagreement, we try to Love as Jesus did. Our God is a Big God. He will not be confined to the pretty religious packages we would like to fashion for Him. I'm sure you are also following Him the best way that you know. If people don't see Love in you, however, they might never believe it.

Oh, there is more of this stuff and again one can only start to realize why Ken does not allow comments on his blogs and why Ingrid heavily censored hers.
If you want to read more of these comments... which there are 20 total and 5 would be considered positive... again this is a very conservative organization...
My favorite "pro" one I think truly reflects that arrogance and insanity of those who follow men like Ken.

"Posted On: 04/03/07 06:29:07 AMAge 57, AR These responses are unreal. The guy wouldn't have used the filthy words if he were IN Christ. When or if you were saved, did you in your quest for the truth in God's word, cuss about it? I didn't! God made me Holy. He wants us to live Holy lives. There appears to be allot of learned people on this page. You may be smart, but not in the knowledge of the Lord, and his ways. The only word I can think to describe what I thought when reading some of these responses, is TOLERANT."

First off Ken would state this guy was a "semi-pelagian" for stating, "in your quest" as that would be an Arminian view and not the "approved" Reformers... Secondly, I truly wonder what this guy means by "God made me Holy." I mean I agree, but it does not mean sin does not rise up in us once in a while... if in fact using a word created by the Puritans in a sin... Oh those evil and vile not "IN Christ" Puritans... they make me so made for giving the world that sinful word.... it makes me just want to cuss... LOL!

be blessed,
iggy

I am going to just ask this open question.

I have read much of Ken Silva' "false" accusations against many... yet I am wondering what are the specific things Ken holds against Tony?

Now, if you use the "Tony used the "f" word... I will remind you Ken you used the headline,and the quote many more times than Tony has... and in fact I am on record as asking Tony to tame down his language... so let's move on from that one.

Yet, how can you justify the name calling?

What are the facts behind these "names"... that make them so true?

I am holding this out so that you can state your case. So far I see these as slander and lies... but then, it seems you thrive on those things.

So, without making this all about me... let's talk about Tony Jones... and all the facts (which seemed to become opinions as of late) that you have piling up against him.

iggy

Updated: This is an example of Ken's "research" (now opinion) in which as usual he gives only half the story.

Source 1: Ken lies and slanders Bruce.

Source 2: Bruce tells the rest of the story.

So Ken... about the lies and slander (I mean "opinions") concerning Tony... I am still waiting for you to prove your lies and slander as Truth...

In the past I have written on Platonism/Dualism has infused itself into Christianity. Someone stated I did not have any proof or whatever it was that he needed to be convinced as pointing out that Aquinas and Augustine were greatly influenced by Plato and in that brought those ideas into Christianity...

Now, Emergent Village has some great podcasts on this topic with two of the greatest living philosophers alive today... it is well worth a listen.

2007 Theological, Philosophical Conversation- Session 1, Part 1

Part 2 - 2007 Theological, Philosophical Conversation- Session 1

Session 2 - 2007 Theological, Philosophical Conversation

Here who you will hear:

Jack Caputo
Richard Kearney
Tony Jones
Geoff Holsclaw
Russell Rathbun

Enjoy!

Be blessed,
iggy