Taking a Stand....

Picture Source

I had a great time in conversation with Rob and Terry Witham. Actually I talked way too much… Yet, as we talked I tried to explain something I have been thinking about for a while. I sometimes do not want to have all the answers… or rather, in some cases, I don’t want to settle on an answer.

Now, the issues I am dealing with often are hot topics. I see that in the case of homosexuality or rather, gay Christians, I do not have an answer. Yes, I can argue both sides of the debate and probably convince others one way or the other, yet… I do not think that is that great of thing. I could just make it easier on myself and just settle on the typical evangelical view, yet in my mind that is not being honest to myself nor is it being honest with other… it would just be easier. I understand fully why many do not even try to untangle the mess this issue has become.

While I was talking to Rob and Terry I realized that if I settled on the issue, I would then start to judge others. If I settled that Gay if OK… then I would judge those who oppose that view as wrong. If I settled that Gay is wrong no matter what, then again, I would be judging those in the Gay community. I see judging others as wrong. (Don’t tell me how inconsistent I am in this… believe me I already know!) I realized (at least for now) that to not have an answer allows me to extend Grace to both sides. I am free to love others as people. While I confess it is harder for me to love those who judge me or even attack me, I do try to earnestly love them. (Again, I know how bad I am at that!) For the time being I am satisfied that I do not know the answer… I used to have the need to know the answer and still do most the time, yet… to have an answer, seems to make this issue harder… and makes me less able to respond to the leadings of Christ Jesus.

I know… some of you will accuse me of not taking a stand… but I have… For now I stand on Love and the Grace of God.

Of Grace, Jennifer Knapp and gay Christians... an email dialog

This is a recent dialog via email between a friend and me. I think in some ways it expresses my feelings and where I am with the “gay Christian” debate. The point of this email exchange was not that I am right or he is right, but that it is taking place.

To iggy:

This quote shows such an ignorance of Scripture. What kind of effective 'ministering' could she have been doing all those years as a ‘Christian’ artist?

Knapp: The Bible has literally saved my life. I find myself between a Rock and a hard place-between the conservative evangelical who uses what most people refer to as the "clobber verses" to refer to this loving relationship as an abomination, while they're eating shellfish and wearing clothes of five different fabrics, and various other Scriptures we could argue about. I'm not capable of getting into the theological argument as to whether or not we should or shouldn't allow homosexuals within our church.

To Friend:

What kind of effective ministering do any of us do except what is done by and through the Holy Spirit? I had some of the most effective times dealing with some people while I was deep in doubt and using drugs and drinking…

Yet, not I that live; but Christ... and in the times I gave in to Jesus

And let Him do it, it was effective. Other times... it was just kindling. There is a lot of effective kindling out there in the church today... believe me.

To: iggy

Subject: Re:

However, she seems to show a real lack of understanding on some basics.

C'mon comparing homosexuality to SHELLFISH!

That's why I've been gravitating towards Catholicism lately. They've got their priorities in order.

Although I understand your point.

To Friend:

Actually, many Christians use the verses in Leviticus to bash gay people...these same passages state we are not to eat shrimp, lobster, or wear clothes with mixed materials... in that case I am greatly in sin as I LOVE shrimp and lobster and most much I wear are mixed materials. The point is what of the Law carries over into our lives as New Creations?

There are better arguments on both sides... for me I take each person as an individual... as Paul states, "I do not even judge myself though my conscience is clear, for a clear conscience does not mean I am innocent."(Slightly paraphrased)

To me, I see it as an area of identity, and we all have dark areas we struggle with... and some we do not. I let the Holy Spirit do His job in people... It is His job to convict of sin. So if someone at one point does not see his or her "sin" as sin the way I do, I let be. Of course it is harming others like murder of pedophilia I would do all I could for the safety of others, yet in prison, I would walk and talk about things with the person and let God work in them.

The bashing technique does not work. It only polarizes and hardens the other person... I am not fully convinced it is ok to be gay any more than I am convinced how most evangelicals deal with homosexuals is not also in a sinful manner. I fall somewhere in the middle where you feel the heat from all sides. Though by changing my approach I have found gay people more open to God and grace than ever... and were sin is, Grace abounds... where there is Grace, Jesus is at work... where Jesus is, Hope is there.

Just being the controversial thinker I am... = /

To: iggy

Subject: Re:

Yep...I'm not pointing the finger at anyone! It's just the blatant disregard for obvious Scriptural truth that frustrates me. There are certainly gray areas but I don't think this is one of them. 1Cor.5:11 Paul says but now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER but is sexually immoral or greedy...etc...with such a man do not even eat".

Not that I wouldn't have lunch with Jennie...but..........

To Friend:

I think the difference is context... in Corinth; the man openly bragged about sleeping with his father's wife... and used grace as an excuse. Yet, in most cases of a gay relationship, it is not about abusing or flaunting grace but about attraction and love. Again, I am not sold on the gay is ok argument, yet, I do see that some of the arguments place verses as this is better context than the approved understanding.

Now, take homosexuality out of it... if a person is in a monogamous relationship for 8 years, though unmarried but still faithful to the other person, is that sexually immoral? If you read what the bible literally states in Genesis, Adam, and Eve were created for each other... but it does not say anywhere they were married. Also, in some cases as in two brothers who live together, if one of the brothers die, the other is commanded to take the brothers wife as his own, sleep with her to carry on the family. This is regardless to having a wife already... is that the sanctity of marriage the bible is ALL about? It was what God told Moses to tell His people to do... it was God approving polygamy. Is polygamy immoral? If I am a polygamist and I have multiply wives and I sleep with more than one at a time is that immoral... God's word says it is not as what goes on in the marriage bed is pure...

By switching on one filter and reading the bible one way I can have God approved of only what I see as right. Jesus said that "God created them man and woman" and that is taken as what marriage is to be... One verse, yet many more verses state polygamy is fine and sanctioned by God.

Again, if a man is sleeping only with one woman and is committed to her are they married in the eyes of God or do they also need man's testimony by means of a legal paper? What makes a marriage? Is it the legal paper that holds marriages together or determination of the to who claim to love each other? I am not arguing against marriage, so don't take me wrong.

If a couple who is gay live in a monogamous relationship, and are moral citizens in all regards, are they immoral?

Now to add to all this what about woman being silent in church? It is also in Corinthians and is taught as being cultural... Yet, if we take it as we do the verse you gave we should not. What if both are cultural? What if the idea is that of the Roman rape that was done not out of sexual identity, but out of brutality? Roman Caesars were known to rape other men to show their power over them... as well as the Roman guards would do so to humiliate those they conquered; in fact this practice is still used today as I recall that the torture chambers of Saddam Hussein were spoken of doing this to both men and women.

The main argument is that in the passage you gave, Paul made up a word... there were words that meant exactly what we may take gay or homosexual to mean today, yet.

1) ANDROKOITHS, having intercourse with a man

2) ARRENOGAMEW, to marry men

3) ARRENOKOITHS, a sodomite (in the Attic form)

4) ARRENOMANHS, mad after males

5) ARRENOMIKTHS, a sodomite

6) ARSENOMIKTHS, also a sodomite

7) ARRENOMICIA, the word for sodomy itself

8) ARRENOPIPHS, one who looks lewdly on males.

Paul makes up a word out of two words...

In Greek, that reads (in transliterated form), "KAI HOS AN KOIMHQH META ARSENOS KOITHN GUNAIKOS, BDELUGMA EPOIHSAN AMFOTEROI; QANATOUSQWSAN, ENOIXOI EISIN."

Paul takes two words and makes them one. "ARSENOS KOITHN" Its meaning is vague... but roughly means soft male or effeminate male... as in the case of male prostitutes... It is somewhat like the cultural reference some use to say woman should not speak in church... as woman priestesses/prostitutes were the ones that spoke with authority and Paul did not want these woman to gain power in Corinth... thus stated they should remain quite. If this word is more about the male prostitutes then it does not have much to do with the typical gay couple who love each other in a monogamous relationship.

As you can see I can argue both sides... I can sound convincing on both sides... but am I convinced either way? No. The point is that it is not all as cut-and-dry as it seems... and in a real sense I appreciate Jennifer Knapp's honest answer... to me it is more honest than I have ever read before from someone in her position. There is no doubt she loves the Lord... and no doubt that she cannot deny who she is. The bottom line is the bible states that we should not judge things before the appointed time. Meaning in the end all will be judged by the words of Christ Jesus. Until then all of us who believe are given grace and faith to walk in the grace we receive. Some walk more boldly though appear to be more worldly... and some walk more timidly and with less faith though they appear in our eyes more holy and pure... God judges the heart and our inner being. As I stated already, even a clear conscience means nothing... we can so easily deceive our self.

To iggy:

Don't get me wrong...homosexuality is just like any other sin as far as I'm concerned. What I have a problem with is the flagrant 'in your face' attitude.

To Friend:

My main problem is not about the "sin"... I know many heterosexual marriages that are just wrong and should have never been...

I see it a matter of grace. As far as grace I see no real limits, as far as a persons struggle in Grace, I believe if allowed, Love is the winner. As far as a person and their personal battle, I view them first as a believer and then deal with whatever their struggle is.

I have a friend who is a medical marijuana advocate. I am in agreement with him and see nothing wrong with what he does as far as that. Yet, he has another issue. He was a pothead before Jesus. He is a user and has found mental and physical reasons to keep using. It is deeper than that also. He is a user of people. His view of a friendship is what others add to his project. He wanted me to help validate his "ministry" to help those who need medical marijuana. When I was unable to get back to him for a while due to my surgery and other things, he began to leave messages that if I did not call him back I did not love him.

He has issues deeper than smoking pot. He has emotional/spiritual issues that go deep that he uses pot to mask. I go back and forth with the idea that God gave pot for people like him to bear with life or that my friend can only be turned over to the hands of God for Him to deal with, as I cannot.

I have friends who are gay. One left was gay all his life, got married, had children, yet left his wife for drugs, (gay) sex and rock and roll... after 20 years he and his wife got back together. I have known him for about 6 years now... he still sees himself as gay, yet because of his marriage vows sees he has made a sacrifice for his marriage. He loves his wife of course and even sends me articles stating that a gay person can have a fulfilling heterosexual marriage because of the love for the other. I have other friends who are openly lesbian and speaks of her "wife" lovely... and she is very much vocal about her faith in Jesus. She lived many years as a "straight" woman until she could not bear with the inner truth about her sexuality. In her mind, she is freer now in many ways than she was living in fear of being found out, and exposed. I know a couple in my church whose son is gay and left the church because he found no acceptance. They hurt so much and as I talk to them they see me as encouraging in that I accept gay people and see them like anyone else.

I realized a while back, I cannot change anyone, and if I did it would be worse for them as they would be in my image of who they should be. Instead now, I see that God has a handle on many things I did not see before. If God changes me in some way (or not) I must accept what I am given and live with it until God does something.

I know I am far from perfect... and yet God loves me...

Again, to me it is a case by case issue. I know there are some who are gay who believe it is a sin... so as I see it, it is to them. If that is the case then they need to follow the journey God has for them. If someone does not... regardless to whether I do or not, most likely I will not convince them any more than I can convince my pothead friend of his own deeper need. In the end, I can love them and accept them as Christ loves and accepts me. I can be there in their good times and in their bad times.

If I meet a man who gleefully speaks of rape and the Grace of God, I would not have fellowship with him. Yet, the majority of gay people I know, I would not hesitate to sit with them anymore than Jesus did with the sinners He ate with.

Prophetic voices from unexpected sources: Salvation ~ Elton John

Salvation performed by Elton John

I have to say my friends

This road goes a long, long way

And if we're going to find the end

We're gonna need a helping hand

I have to say my friends

We're looking for a light ahead

In the distance a candle burns

Salvation keeps the hungry children fed



It's gotta take a lot of salvation

What we need are willing hands

You must feel the sweat in your eyes

You must understand salvation



A chance to put the devil down

Without the fear of hell

Salvation spreads the gospel round

And free you from yourself

Nothing's changed, yet everything needs to!

Because Nothing has Changed, 2000 by Anya Gallaccio

Installation at Lehmann Maupin, New York. Private Collection.
Photo courtesy Lehmann Maupin, New York

Nothing's changed, yet everything needs to!

Yeah, that is a play on Brian McLaren’s book Everything Must Change, and to a degree this is about that book… but more this is about correcting a few things that have been stated lately about me.

I have recently decided to make a more conscience effort to reach out and accept Gay people. Gratefully, I have been able to do an interview with a controversial figure, and it seems that interview marked me as “embracing sin”.

My issue with all this is that nothing has really changed in my views. I still believe that one must be saved through Jesus Christ and that the Holy Spirit changes a person from the inside out. I still believe that the core issues are acceptance and identity. Yet, I find some stating awful things about me. Nothing's changed.

I define sin as “anything that comes between a person and God that keeps them from having a close, intimate, loving relationship with Jesus.” This may include being gay when the person’s conscience is not free of guilt. Yet, (and this is the sticky point) a person may be gay and God has other things He is working on of MORE importance. Does this mean a gay person will change their sexual attraction? Sometimes… but not always. Yet, if same sex attraction does not go away and the person still confesses Jesus as their savior… and fails or maybe gives up trying to change in “that” way, what are we to do with that person. Some say cast them out… yet… is it their failure or ours? And then there is this...

We accept all sorts of “sin” in the church. Divorce is a sin… yet there is the same amount of divorce in the “Christian” world as there is in the rest of the world. Yet, there are not many who will stand up and denounce a couple who were divorced and have remarried someone else. (I would not either to tell you the truth). The Bible clearly teaches that if this happens, adultery has happened… and get this… most churches let unrepented divorced adulters attend their church, serve in the church and sometimes…. even pastor a church! Again… for some reason most will fall back on grace for that sort of thing, yet why “Grace” for unrepentant divorced remarried couples and not for struggling or non-struggling gay people? Does grace stop at some point? I hope not… otherwise it is not grace, but works. If God only accepts us by grace then what I think about someone who is gay does not matter… God accepts them, loves them, and wants the best for them… and if I am a true imitator of Jesus, so should I! (Please understand this is an example of how there is a double standard concerning Grace, I am not condemning anyone who has divorced and remarried.)

The Gospel is the Gospel that gives life. In fact, if one confesses Christ and comes to faith, the bible is clear as to what happens.

Ephesians 1: 13. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14. who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Therefore, to not accept someone who believes in Jesus and is gay seems to me, misses the point of Grace…

So, now let us go back to the topic of sin. If someone is in sin, Paul tells us how to approach him or her.

Galatians 6: 1. Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

Yet, it seems that depending on the type of sin, gentleness seems to not matter to some, let alone that we are to carry each other’s burdens. I might also add that there are many verses on patience and longsuffering, yet most also ignore these. If someone is in sin, most likely the already know it or have justified it or just keep themselves in denial. To tell them they are in sin will tend to make them hold on to that very sin even tighter. The only real way to free anyone from sin, is to have the Son set them free. This goes for ANY sin. If we spend our time focused on sin, then Jesus is not our focus. In fact, to focus on our sin is denying that the Lamb who was slain took our sin away. If someone must focus on sin, then it should be his or her own sin, yet even that is wrong! Paul states:

1 Cor 4: 3. I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.

Even if we have a clear conscience, it does not mean we are innocent, so how we judge ourselves may not be accurate. We could see ourselves as right when we are wrong or wrong when we are just fine. We truly need to let Jesus be the judge and instead look to ourselves to make sure we are not falling victim to self-deception.

Finally, I want to ask those who disagree to at least agree with these words from Paul which are my prayer for you, me and anyone else who calls themselves followers of Jesus.

1 Peter 3: 8. Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.

Ephesians 1: 2. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.

It is not my job to diagnose and then try to fix anyone else. I cannot even do that with myself. It is my job though, to assume “the sick need a doctor” and that I too need that same doctor. We all need Jesus. We all need Jesus not just to get to heaven, but also to Live… To live now and for eternity. My job is simply to be one that needs the doctor who helps others who need that same doctor and walk side by side with them as they are being cured. Meanwhile, always remembering, I have not fully arrived yet, or totally healed and need help from the other person to walk at times. This is what needs to change in our thinking about anyone different from us. Jesus removed the “other” from the Christian vocabulary and changed it to brother (and sister of course ) = ) This new life is no longer about separation, but reconciliation... and that we now walk supporting each other as we become more like Christ and walk in God's Kingdom come to earth.

Brian McLaren: the pain of division over gay issues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYl6hbBYvqo

Gabba Gabba Hey!

I have been taking a beating so far in my view on what must be done to reach the gay community. It is heartbreaking to have a friend stab you in the back with false accusations of “embracing sin”… as it is frightening to have some come and encourage me as I know I may not fully agree with their view either. My only hope is to encourage all to a closer, loving, and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ.

There is so much baggage cast out against someone who is gay. I have already met parents with gay children who can hear what I am saying and are finding hope. They understand what I mean as they process the horrible isolation someone who faces same sex attraction must go through. They understand why their son or daughter does not come to church or see why Jesus would not accept them. And that is core to the issue. Acceptance. If one comes to understand he or she is accepted by God, great and wonderful things begin to happen. New Life begins and they change! Yet so often we stand in the door to heaven and keep thinking we are ushering in those Jesus is drawing to Himself, yet instead we are blocking those Jesus drew out. We set on them a higher standard than God set on us. Often we just do not see this yet; there is a type of favoritism in the church that needs to be driven out.

You see this is the issue... when we look at proving one side or the other we either have tempers raised and accusations tossed out... or we have the attempt to legitimize sin (Again I define sin as anything that comes between you and a close intimate, growing, relationship with God.)

Instead, the focus of our faith is and should NOT be sin, but Jesus. For no one can change someone else. I can take a bottle of booze from a drunk but then he is a sober drunk... I never changed them. Instead, we clean the outside of the cup but Jesus cleans the inside. Therefore, it is the same with anything that could come between a person and their relationship with God. When we focus on Jesus, then we no longer see sin! For Jesus was the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world... yours and mine. We then can see a beloved brother or sister that Jesus died for and gave new life to.

Therefore, it is in no way the acceptance or embracing of sin... it is the embracing of Jesus for all His Resurrected Life that is imparted to us. It is embracing the abundant Life. It is letting all we are that is not Christ fall away and God become all in all of you as a person.

If this is heresy then burn me at the stake. All I am saying is if we focus on sin, it should be our OWN. Yet, even with ourselves, we should face Jesus and not our sin for only Jesus takes sin away. If we are facing our sin we are not facing Jesus, it is like when we face the sun.... We do not see our shadow, but if we turn away from the sun, then we see a distorted view of our self in the shadow.

Even to tell someone he or she is a sinner is futile most the time. A person can rationalize their position and sere their conscience. Only the Holy Spirit can convict a person to change. Only God can corner someone with a question that can only be truthfully answered. If we try then we are making someone settle for less than the inner workings of the Holy Spirit…

We can walk with someone through his or her struggles and pain, his or her joy and success and accept the person unconditionally with the same love God accepted us. So all I can say to those who feel outside is something that was coined by the Ramones. "Gabba Gabba we accept you! One of us!"

To those of you who understand what I am saying or even if you do not, pray for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBfybCPkjA

Interview with Adele Sakler: Gay Christians

Reposting this interview as it is this month's iggytalks show.

This was a fun interview. Adele Sakler is funny witty and this interview could have gone on for hours. We cover many things from fear of gay people, to how we can move beyond focusing on "sin" and focus on Jesus.

Download this episode (71 min)

November 17th World Prayer for Uganda

I recieved this on Facebook.com and thought I would pass it along.

Hello Everyone,

Thank you all for continuing to spread the message that regardless of one's theological belief system, this legislation is wrong. Dr. Warren Throckmorton and I (Andrew Marin - author of Love is an Orientation) are assembling a day of prayer.

Dr. Throckmorton and I know that there are many of you in this group who are not religious, and we are not asking you to do something you are not comfortable with. But for those who do have a faith tradition we ask that on Tuesday November 17th, you take at least 30 minutes to pray for the following:

1. That this legislation be thrown out

2. For protection and peace for our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters living in this oppression in Uganda and around the world

3. That the Ugandan Church realize this legislation is not morally or Scripturally correct - as there has been disturbing news recently coming from some of my contacts in Uganda and Parliment that the Ugandan Church is starting to make official statements in favor of this bill. I will be posting those as soon as they are official.

The world will feel this impact! I know that on the evening of November 17th I have a large group gathering in Chicago that will be focusing our time in prayer for the aformentioned three requests. This Facebook group has members located all over the world, and we have a unique opportunity to gather throughout the globe to lift these injustices to our Creator to make a divine impact. If your belief urges you to do so, please join us in this day of prayer. Thank you.

Much love,

Andrew Marin

Dr. Warren Throckmorton

Related post

Do You Love Gay People? - A Love Issue

The comments are really revealing as to how blind and hateful some really are. Sadly many do not even realize how hateful their words are... when someone states:

We should love people the way God loves them; with truth, and pure love. There is gay people outthere who would be willing to change their lives and accept Jesus as their personal Savior. We as christians, cannot decide who will accept Jesus or who won't. Our duty is to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with our own testimony, and with Love. I have known gay people who repented and now are living a normal life (according to God's purpose). Believe me, God can still change people's lives. Let's pray for all those beautiful people (including gay people) who need Jesus as their personal Savior. Amen.

Sadly this is one of the more "loving" comments posted on the site. Yet, when a gay person hears a Christian say the word "change" they hear us saying they must clean up their lives before they come to Jesus! That is NOT the Gospel... We are saved by Grace, straight or gay.

The hate just keeps on coming proving the video over and over again as right on, yet as you can see they are blind to their own hate. It is time to stop hating and start loving... Will you take a stand for Unconditional Love?

John Piper answers: Was Jesus tempted with homosexuality?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWivqRMVkHg

I was a bit amused at John Piper's ability to answer this rather easy question. Though he sort of gives an answer it misses the point as to be tempted is not the same as sinning. One can be tempted, but it is the acting upon the temptation that it becomes sin. Jesus was tempted on three levels by the devil.

Luke 4: 1. Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, 2. where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry. 3. The devil said to him, "If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread." 4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone.' " 5. The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7. So if you worship me, it will all be yours." 8. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'" 9. The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. 10. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully;11. they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' " 12. Jesus answered, "It says: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' " 13. When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time. 14. Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside.

1. Body = Turn the stones into bread

2. Mind = Throw yourself down from this steeple as God said He would send angles to protect you.

3. Spirit = Worship me (the Devil) and all the world is yours.

Each point was a test for Jesus. He had fasted and was hungry. Test God to see if He is real and will be faithful to His word and finally, worship the devil in exchange for all the world. The would cover about all temptations I can think of. Bodily pleasures, mentally believing one is too smart to believe in God, and worshiping the creation instead of the Creator.

Yet, the verse in question would not neceistate Jesus to be tempted to participate in homosexual acts.; Hebrews 4: 15. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. 16. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

The humorous part though is that Piper seemed to miss or at least in his attempt to explained was not clear in his explanation that one sins because of one own evil desires. Now he stated that, but temptation works like this.

If I was walking through a restaurant and saw the tips left on a the tables for the waitress and thought for a second, "No one would know if I took it." and then took I was tempted then following my evil desires committed the sin of theft. Yet if I had the same scenario, and I did not take the money I was tempted but did not sin as I did not take the money. Though Jesus would say I committed the sin in my heart... which to me is the idea of recognizing that the potential for me to think and take the money is there.

Now a person may also walk through the room and see the money and not even have the thought cross their mind to take it. To me, I see that Jesus was like that. If He was "tempted" as we were, I do not think He struggled as we do to morally decide to act or not. Instead all the things that tempt us were present for Jesus to see and partake of, including homosexuality, yet, Jesus would not have giving the temptation a thought but only did as His Father told Him to do.

Piper was compassionate in his answer, but seemed to miss this as a simple question. It seemed to rather perplex him, which in turn perplexes me that a man held in such high regard as a theologian, could not easily answer a rather simplistic question on temptation.

Take a stand against the anti gay bill in Uganda

Please fight against this horrible Bill that is trying to be passed in Uganda. Take a stand for human rights.

Please sign this petition



http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2009/10/15/15609


Here It Is: The Text of Uganda’s Proposed Anti-Homosexuality Bill


Jim Burroway

October 15th, 2009

We just received early this morning the full text of the proposed Anti-Homosexuality Bill that was introduced into Uganda’s Parliament yesterday. It is greatly expanded from the earlier draft dated April 20, 2009.



Like the earlier draft, the current bill reiterates a lifetime imprisonment on conviction of homosexuality, and defines a new category called “aggravated homosexuality” with provisions for the death penalty upon conviction. Among the factors which can lead to “aggravated homosexuality” is if one partner is HIV-positive. This bill would mandate HIV testing to determine eligibility for “aggravated homosexuality.”



Also like the earlier draft, the bill includes a complete ban on all LGBT activities — including blogging — which could be construed as “promoting homosexuality.” This infringement on free speech, peaceful assembly, and redress of grievances marks the elimination of fundamental human rights for LGBT Ugandans. The bill also bans all organizations which advocate on behalf of LGBT citizens and holds their leadership criminally liable with fines and imprisonment for up to seven years.



The bill also retains provisions which require that if someone knows that someone is engaging in homosexuality, that person is to report them to the police within twenty-four hours or face fines and/or up to a three year prison sentence themselves. The bill also extends jurisdiction to acts committed outside Uganda by Ugandan citizens. In other words, if a Ugandan citizen is known to be in a gay relationship outside the country, he will risk lifetime imprisonment (or death, if he’s HIV-positive) upon his return. The bill also provides for the extradition of citizens from abroad.



The bill also voids all treaties and international obligations which violate ” the spirit and provisions enshrined in this Act.”



The new bill adds some additional provisions over the previous draft. This bill adds the category of “attempted homosexuality” and provides a penalty of seven years in prison. For “attempted aggravated homosexuality,” the penalty is lifetime imprisonment. It also provides for compensation for “victims” of homosexuality, a provision in law which is sure to result in consensual partners turning against their partner to not only avoid the draconian legal penalties, but to claim the status of victim and seek compensation.



Further, the bill now adds an explicit ban on same-sex marriage. Anyone who enters into a same-sex marriage, either in Uganda or abroad, will liable for a lifetime imprisonment. New charges of “aiding and abetting homosexuality” and “conspiracy to engage in homosexuality” would carry a prison sentence of seven years. There is also a new charge for operating a brothel, with a definition so broad as to include any hotel owner. That, too, carries a prison sentence of seven years.



The original PDF of the document is here (PDF: 847KB/16 pages), and the full text is provided below.







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THE ANTI HOMOSEXUALITY BILL. 2009.

MEMORANDUM



1.1. The principle

The object of this Bill is to establish a comprehensive consolidated legislation to protect the traditional family by prohibiting (i) any form of sexual relations between persons of the same sex; and (ii) the promotion or recognition of such sexual relations in public institutions and other places through or with the support of any Government entity in Uganda or any non governmental organization inside or outside the country.



This Bill aims at strengthening the nation’s capacity to deal with emerging internal and external threats to the traditional heterosexual family.



This legislation further recognizes the fact that same sell attraction is not an innate and immutable characteristic.



The Bill further aims at providing a comprehensive and enhanced legislation to protect the cherished culture of the people of Uganda. legal, religious, and traditional family values of the people of Uganda against the attempts of sexual rights activists seeking to impose their values of sexual promiscuity on the people of Uganda.



There is also need to protect the children and youths of Uganda who are made vulnerable to sexual abuse and deviation as a result of cultural changes, uncensored information technologies, parentless child developmental settings and increasing attempts by homosexuals to raise children in homosexual relationships through adoption, foster care, or otherwise.



2.1. Defects In existing law.

This proposed legislation is designed to fill the gaps in the provisions of other laws in Uganda e.g. the Penal Code Act Cap. 120.



The Penal Code Act (CapI20) has no comprehensive provision catering for anti homosexuality. It focuses on unnatural offences under section 145 and lacks provisions for penalizing the procurement, promoting, disseminating literature and other pornographic materials concerning the offences of homosexuality hence the need for legislation to provide for charging, investigating, prosecuting, convicting and sentencing of offenders.



This legislation comes to complement and supplement the provisions of the Constitution of Uganda and the Penal Code Act Cap 120 by not only criminalizing same sex marriages but also same-sex sexual acts and other related acts.



3.0. The objectives of the Bill

The objectives of the Bill are to:



(a) provide for marriage in Uganda as that contracted only between a man and a woman;



(b) prohibit and penalize homosexual behavior and related practices in Uganda as they constitute a threat to the traditional family;



(e) prohibit ratification of any international treaties, conventions, protocols, agreements and declarations which are contrary or inconsistent with the provisions of this Act;



(d) prohibit the licensing of organizations which promote homosexuality.



3.1. Part I of the Bill incorporating clause 1 provides for preliminary mailers relating to interpretation of the words and phrases used in the Bill.



3.2. Part II of the Bill incorporating clause 2 to 6 prohibits homosexuality and related practices by introducing the offences of engaging In homosexuality, and the penalties of imprisonment upon conviction. This pan also provides for protection, assistance and support for victims of homosexuality.



3.3. Part III of the Bill incorporating clause 7 to clause 14 creates offences and penalties for acts that promote homosexuality, failure to report the offence and impose a duty on the community to report suspected cases of homosexuality.



3.4. Part IV of the Bill incorporating clause 15 to clause 17 provides for the jurisdiction of Uganda Courts in case of Homosexuality, including extra territorial jurisdiction.



3.5. Part V of the Bill incorporating clauses 18 and 19 provides for miscellaneous provisions on International Treaties, Protocols. Declarations and conventions and the Minister to make regulations to give effect to the Act.



Schedule of the Bill gives the value of the currency point.



HON DAVID BAHATI,

Member of Parliament, Ndorwa County West Kabale.



THE ANTI HOMOSEXUALITY BILL, 2009.

ARRANGEMENT OF CLAUSES.

PART I — PRELIMINARY



Clause

I. Interpretation.



PART ll-PROHIBITION OF HOMOSEXUALITY.



2. The offence of homosexuality

3. Aggravated homosexuality.

4. Attempt to commit homosexuality.

5. Protection, assistance and payment of compensation to victims of homoseuxality

6. Confidentiality.



PART Ill — RELATED OFFENCES AND PENALTIES.



7. Aiding and abating homosexuality.

8. Conspiracy to engage in homosexuality.

9. Procuring homosexuality. by threats, etc.

10. Detention with intent to commit homosexuality.

11. Brothels.

12. Same sex marriage.

13. Promotion of homosexuality.

14. Failure to disclose the offence.



PART IV — JURISDICTION.



15. Jurisdiction.

16. Extra-territorial Jurisdiction.

17. Extradition.



PART V — MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS



18. International treaties.

19. Regulations.



Schedule





Currency point.



—



—





A BILL FOR AN ACT

ENTITLED

THE ANTI HOMOSEXUALITY ACT, 2009.



An Act to prohibit any form of sexual relations between persons of the same sex; prohibit the promotion or recognition of such relations and to provide for other related matters.



BE IT ENACTED by Parliament as follows:



PART I — PRELIMINARY.



I. Interpretation.



In this Act. unless the context otherwise requires –



“authority” means having power and control over other people because of your knowledge and official position; and shall include a person who exercises religious. political, economic or social authority;



“bisexual” means a person who is sexually attracted to both males and females;



“child” means a person below the age of 18 years:



“currency point” has the value assigned to it in the Schedule to this Act;



“disability” means a substantial limitation of daily life activities caused by physical. mental or sensory impairment and environment barriers resulting in limited participation;



“felony” means an offence which is declared by law to be a felony or if not declared to be a misdemeanor is punishable without proof of previous conviction, with death or with imprisonment for 3 years or more.;



“gay”" means a male person who engages in sexual intimacy with another person of the same sex;



“‘gender”" means male or female;



“HIV” means the Human Immunodeficiency Virus;



“homosexual”‘ means a person who engages or attempts to engage in same gender sexual activity;



“homosexuality”’ means same gender or same sex sexual acts;



“lesbian” means a female who engages in sexual intimacy with another female;



“Minister’” means the Minister responsible for ethics and integrity;



“misdemeanor” means an offence which is not a felony;



“serial offender” means a person who has previous convictions of the offence of homosexuality or related offences;



“sexual act” includes –



(a) physical sexual activity that docs not necessarily culminate in intercourse and may include the touching of another’s breast, vagina, penis or anus:



(b) stimulation or penetration of a vagina or mouth or anus or any part of the body of any person, however slight by a sexual organ;



(c) the unlawful use of any object or organ by a person on another person’s sexual organ or anus or mouth;



“sexual organ” means a vagina, penis or any artificial sexual contraption;



“touching” includes touching—



(a) with any part of the body;



(b) with anything else;



(c) through anything;



and in particular includes touching amounting to penetration of any sexual organ. anus or mouth.



“victim” includes a person who is involved in homosexual activities against his or her will.



PART II — HOMOSEXUALITY AND RELATED PRACTICES.



2. The offence of homosexuality.

(1) A person commits the offence of homosexuality if-



(a) he penetrates the anus or mouth of another person of the same sex with his penis or any other sexual contraption;



(b) he or she uses any object or sexual contraption to penetrate or stimulate sexual organ of a person of the same sex;



(e) he or she touches another person with the intention of committing the act of homosexuality.



(2) A person who commits an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction to imprisonment for life.



3. Aggravated homosexuality.

(1) A person commits the offense of aggravated homosexuality where the



(a) person against whom the offence is committed is below the age of 18 years;



(b) offender is a person living with HIV;



(c) offender is a parent or guardian of the person against whom the offence is committed;



(d) offender is a person in authority over the person against whom the offence is committed;



(e) victim of the offence is a person with disability;



(f) offender is a serial offender, or



(g) offender applies, administers or causes to be used by any man or woman any drug, matter or thing with intent to stupefy overpower him or her so as to there by enable any person to have unlawful carnal connection with any person of the same sex,



(2) A person who commits the offence of aggravated homosexuality shall be liable on conviction to suffer death.



(3) Where a person is charged with the offence under this section, that person shall undergo a medical examination to ascertain his or her HIV status.



4, Attempt to commit homosexuality.

(1) A person who attempts to commit the offence of homosexuality commits a felony and is liable on conviction to imprisonment seven years.



(2) A person who attempts to commit the offence of aggravated homosexuality commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for life.



5. Protection, assistance and payment of compensation to victims of homosexuality.

(1 ) A victim of homosexuality shall not be penalized for any crime commuted as a direct result of his or her involvement in homosexuality.



(2) A victim of homosexuality shall be assisted to enable his or her views and concerns to be presented and considered at the appropriate stages of the criminal proceedings.



(3) Where a person is convicted of homosexuality or aggravated homosexuality under sections 2 and 3 of this Act, the court may, in addition to any sentence imposed on the offender, order that the victim of the offence be paid compensation by the offender for any physical, sexual or psychological harm caused to the victim by the offence.



(4) The amount of compensation shall be determined by the court and the court shall take into account the extent of harm suffered by the victim of the offence. the degree of force used by the offender and medical and other expenses incurred by the victim as a result of the offence.



6. Confidentiality.

(1) At any stage of the Investigation or trial of an offence under this Act, law enforcement officers, prosecutors, judicial officers and medical practitioners, as well as parties to the case, shall recognize the right to privacy of the victim.



(2) For the purpose of subsection (I), in cases involving children and other cases where the court considers it appropriate. proceedings of the court shall be conducted in camera, outside the presence of the media.



(3) Any editor or publisher, reporter or columnist in case of printed materials. announcer or producer in case of television and radio, producer or director of a film to case of the movie industry. or any person utilizing trimedia facilities or information technology who publishes or causes the publicity of the names and personal circumstances or any other information tending to establish the victim’s identity without authority of court commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding two hundred and fifty currency points.



7. Aiding and abating homosexuality

A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures another to engage in acts of homosexuality commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for seven years.



8. Conspiracy to engage in homosexuality.

A person who conspires with another to induce another person of the same sex by any means of false pretence or other fraudulent means to permit any person of the same sex to have unlawful carnal knowledge of him or her commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for seven years.



9. Procuring homosexuality by threats, etc.

(1) A person who–



(a) by threats or intimidation procures or attempts to procure any woman or man to have any unlawful carnal knowledge with any person of the same sex, either in Uganda or elsewhere;



(b) by false pretences or false representations procures any woman or man to have any unlawful carnal connection with any person of the same sex, either in Uganda or elsewhere; or



(2) A person shall not be convicted of an offence under this section upon the evidence of one witness only, unless that witness is corroborated in some material particular by evidence implicating the accused.



10. Detention with intent to commit homosexuality.

A person who detains another person with the intention to commit acts of homosexuality with him or herself or with any other person commits an offence and is liable on conviction for seven years.



11. Brothels.

(1) A person who keeps a house, room,set of rooms or place of any kind for the purposes of homosexuality commits an offence and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for seven years.



2) A person being the owner or occupier of premises or having or acting or assisting in the management or control of the premises, induces or knowingly suffers any man or woman to resort to or be upon such premises for the purpose of being unlawfully and carnally known by any man or woman of the same sex whether such carnal knowledge is intended to be with any particular man or woman generally, commits a felony and is liable on conviction to imprisonment for five years.



12. Same sex marriage.

A person who purports to contract a marriage with another person of the same sex commits the offence of homosexuality and shall be liable on conviction to imprisonment for life.



13. Promotion of homosexuality.

(1) A person who –



(a) participates in production. procuring, marketing, broadcasting, disseminating, publishing pornographic materials for purposes of promoting homosexuality;



(b) funds or sponsors homosexuality or other related activities;



(c) offers premises and other related fixed or movable assets for purposes of homosexuality or promoting homosexuality;



(d) uses electronic devices which include internet, films, mobile phones for purposes of homosexuality or promoting homosexuality and;



(e) who acts as an accomplice or attempts to promote or in any way abets homosexuality and related practices;



commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a line of live thousand currency points or imprisonment of a minimum of five years and a maximum of seven years or both fine and imprisonment.



(2) Where the offender is a corporate body or a business or an association or a non-governmental organization, on conviction its certificate of registration shall be cancelled and the director or proprietor or promoter shall be liable on conviction to imprisonment for seven years.



14. Failure to disclose the offence.

A person in authority, who being aware of the commission of any offence under this Act, omits to report the offence to the relevant authorities within twenty-four hours of having first had that knowledge, commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding two hundred and fifty currency points or imprisonment not exceeding three years.



PART IV — JURISDICTION



15. Jurisdiction.

Save for aggravated homosexuality that shall be tried by the High Court, the magistrates court shall have jurisdiction to try the other offences under this Act.



16. Extra- Territorial Jurisdiction.

This Act shall apply to offenses committed outside Uganda where –



(a) a person who, while being a citizen of or permanently residing in Uganda, commits an act outside Uganda, which act would constitute an offence under this Act had it been committed in Uganda; or



(b) the offence was committed partly outside and or partly in Uganda.



17. Extradition.

A person charged with an offence under this Act shall be liable to extradition under the existing extradition laws.



PART V — MISCELLANEOUS.



18. Nullification of inconsistent international treaties, protocols, declarations and conventions.(1) Any International legal instrument whose provisions are contradictory to the spirit and provisions enshrined in this Act, are null and void to the extent of their inconsistency.



(2) Definitions of “sexual orientation”, “sexual rights”, “sexual minorities”, “gender identity” shall not be used in anyway to legitimize homosexuality, gender identity disorders and related practices in Uganda.



19. Regulations.

The Minister may, by statutory instrument. make regulations generally for better carrying out the provisions of this Act.



SCHEDULE



One currency point in equivalent to twenty thousand shillings.

FIRST LOOK: Andrew Marin - Loving Your Gay Neighbor Pt 1

It's a matter of identity

Often I see critics of the emerging conversation take quotes out of context and then building straw men arguments against them.

I admit there are some issues in the emerging conversation... yet that is true in all "movements" or denominations. I feel sometimes that the critics actually hurt people like me who can speak to those in my camp and show them were error may lie. (I also still do not see the conversation as a movement as it loses its prophetic power to speak to this generation)

One area is the area of homosexuality. I agree with Brian McLaren that we need to step back and look at human sexuality as a whole and respond to thinks like divorce, fornication as well as homosexuality. The issue I have is that some are too "accepting" of the lifestyle and not seeing that it is not about accepting lifestyles but about accepting people and teaching them a proper identity as a new creation.

Yet, instead, I see the backlash of the gay bashing crowd... the back lash being "gay is ok"... and that is not even a question to me biblically. Gay is no more ok than if I cheated on my wife... grace covers it, but is not a license to sin, but to do what is good. Is cheating on my wife good? No! So also any sin, gossip, slander, homosexuality or fornication and one and on... are all harmful to us and others and is not expressing the love of God.

Now that does not negate that if we sin... or that we may struggle with sin... that we do not have a Mediator... yet the challenge is not to accept our sin and live in it.... but to overcome it and leave it.

This is not some over night success process... and I think God teaches us through the struggles.

If I cheated on my wife and she gave me the grace of not leaving me, we would have to learn together how to trust and love each other once again... or even for the first time. That would be hard... and not something God would just heal overnight in most cases...

Sexuality needs to be addressed in light of our new identity as New Creations and being Children of God... once that is in place, we no longer cling to "I am gay" or " I am a drunk" or " I am a doctor" or “I am a fireman" or “I am a schizophrenic” and so on... We may struggle with these things... (Pride with a job even) but we no longer identify as that being us.

We who are now in Christ are New Creations. Though we still have this corrupted suit of flesh, God now has given us to power and all the tools to live by the Spirit. This means we should listen to the Holy Spirit as he leads us in all truth and have our minds renewed. By having our minds renewed we learn that sin, though forgivable, is not just wrong, but stupid. By learning to live a confessional life, we learn to agree with God when we do stupid things. He does not condemn us and will lift us up and help us to be the living sacrifices he has called us to.

Living or “abiding” in Christ, is about learning to understand what God wants us to know about being fully human. To focus on just our sexuality or job or whatever and allowing it to be our identity we are not believing the Truth of who we are “in Christ”.

I think that anyone who sees sin as God does will realize that if someone is gay, or overweight or any other “sin” they are not allowing the Holy Spirit to teach them.

We all have a big “Fail” sign on our foreheads. Only Jesus has “accepted” on his… and when we are “in Christ” we too are accepted by the Father.

Again, this is not easy to learn for some… there is a struggle yet grace gives us a huge learning curve toward success. God loves us, and by that we learn to love ourselves and others as God does.

God Hates Shrimp!

Jon Trott recently wrote about how Fred Phelps and co. came to Chicago and do their hate based protest. Unfortunately there was an issue where it seems "God Hates Fags" Fred Phelps changed their date of protest so many showed up to do an anti-protest a few days before. Jon was the only one that was able to attend and hold signs to counter the hate protest. I want to thank Jon for being there when so many could not be.

Now in the comments was something that really made me laugh... and I hope that it will make us think about our attitudes toward others.

God hates Shrimp!

(Yes I changed this post a bit. The first sentence just read wrong to me and sounded like Jon had invited Fred P to come to Chicago, he most definitely did not!)

If this famliy came to your church...

A Pregnant Man?

If this family came to your church...

"Despite the fact that my belly is growing with a new life inside me, I am stable and confident being the man that I am.

“To Nancy, I am her husband carrying our child - I am so lucky to have such a loving, supportive wife.

“I will be my daughter’s father, and Nancy will be her mother. We will be a family.”

CRN.info and CRN find common ground

Of all to unite for the common good is CRN and CRN.info over Heath Ledger. Chris Rosebrough and Chris Lyons teamed up with this post from Chris R. I know that this sounds a bit like Larknews but it is true. Kudos to Chris R. for taking a stand against hate.

Be blessed,

iggy

A Letter from a gay man changed by Jesus Christ

Scot McKnight posted this letter from a man who was gay and a Christian. He talks of his struggles yet as you read it you will see that as he was lead by the Holy Spirit, he was lead out of the gay lifestyle. This is a message of hope that is in Christ.

I might add this is not the fruit of "emerging" though he recommends a Rob Bell book, it is solely the victory of Jesus Christ in a person's life as lead by the Holy Spirit.

Here is part of the letter...

"I came back into “church fellowship” through a man I met at a gay bar. He was actively gay at the time, separated, with one child, and deeply committed to his own walk with Christ. He and I never had sex. After several years, he became celibate and continued Christian outreach to gays. I was part of that outreach and had become celibate myself. I felt the Lord calling me to celibacy, at least for a time, after the painful breakup of the two “long term” relationships."

You can read the whole letter here

Be Blessed,
iggy

How Will You respond to Homosexuality

This is a great article about how we should respond to the homosexual who knocks on your church door.

Be blessed,
iggy

One night while she was co-hosting The 700 Club, Sheila Walsh felt led to pray for homosexuals. Honoring the Holy Spirit’s prompting, she thanked God for His love for homosexuals and His desire for a relationship with them. She then invited all homosexual viewers to pray with her for salvation. When Sheila finished praying she encouraged those who had prayed with her to go to a church in their area, tell the pastor that they had asked Jesus into their heart, and say, “Sheila Walsh sent me.”

Sheila later received a letter from a gay man who had been watching the broadcast. He had asked Jesus into his heart, gone to a local church, met with the pastor, shared that he was gay and about the broadcast he saw. The pastor responded, “We don’t have room for fags in this church.” In his letter, the man shared that he was grateful to her, but that being a part of “The Church” was just not possible.

I have heard and told this story many times, but I still cringe when I think of that honest, broken, searching man who poured out his heart only to be rebuked by a pastor with a reckless tongue and un-Christlike heart. I wish I knew where to find him so I could share that all pastors and churches are not like that one and that God is not like the pastor he spoke with. Read more here (Sorry for forgetting the link)