Tuesday, July 24, 2007

And now the fruit of Lordship Salvation... by Jim W.

I received this comment from Jim W. who wanted to express the Love of Jesus and show me His great grace and mercy. I was overwhelmed by this as his expression to me of the loving kindness he displayed reminded me of how Jesus would be. I am truly thinking of changing to his way of thinking and converting to his type of religious Calvinism.

Here is his loving letter to me from this comment.

Jim W on July 24th, 2007

I see iggy is striking again and so far, no one is getting any further than they have any previous time.
iggy can twist any statement into a pretzel faster than a pretzel machine can.
“1. One accepting Jesus in a certain manner. meaning that they MUST accept Him as Lord… the bible teaches Jesus is to be our very Life… So I see that John right off the bat has added a “condition” to the grace that is freely given.”
John Mac doesn’t teach any works, iggy, no matter how much you’d like to believe it. Believing and accepting Jesus as Lord is part of our repentance. Understanding our fallen, sin nature is critical. If we do not grasp our utter inability to reach God on our own merit, we will never be accepted into God’s kingdom. recognizing that Jesus is Lord is part of this.
“2. John looks at man’s fruit as a way to see if one is “saved” or not… all men’s fruit is bad, we are all bad trees. God is the only Good Tree and we are called to bear HIS Fruit and not just polish our own. This leads to a performance and shame based faith that is not biblical”
We are not bad trees, iggy. Our fruit isn’t bad, either. Not once we are reborn into the family of Christ. We can still produce bad fruit by failing to do what God commands us to do, but if we are following God’s commands, we will produce good fruit. Examining a person’s fruit is exactly what is commanded in John’s epistles. No matter how much you would like to deny the rest of the Bible, it still applies to us.
To Tony and Quitin, have you read iggy’s blog about JM’s “Truth Wars”? This is a classic case of iggy-twisting if I ever saw one. He refers his comments to “Tall Skinny Kiwi” where there is a review of “Truth Wars”. In “Truth Wars”, JM refers to Jude where Jude compares false teaches to stained clothing. Kiwi infers this to mean that JM is comparing emergents to filthy clothes. iggy goes it even farther. He claims that JM is calling Jesus stained clothing. iggy takes it even further. I won’t even write what iggy says, but it calls Jesus stained underwear. Talk about twisting a comment to suit an agenda. And to even imply that someone who has lived a life devoted to God would refer to his (our) Lord as stained underwear is disgusting.
iggy, I’ve said it before, I guess I have to say it again: you’re a pathetic little man. You read with no comprehension and then insert your own thoughts into everyone’s writings. You truly need help. If nothing else, take a class on reading comprehension. That alone will help. Quit trying to read German mathmatians and esoteric philosophers. You cannot understand the things you read, so go back to basics.
BTW, nice equivocation on all your answers to Quitins questions. You answered everything while leaving yourself “outs” on everything. You can’t be pinned down to any position because of your postmodern mindset. You obviously have studied Tony Jones and Doug Pagitt.

I might state here that Jim W. makes an interesting accusation. He states that I made up the thing about being a stain on the garment of Jesus? That was what JM stated! Also, note that I answered these "certain" questions... Here is what i stated and my answers that Jim W. claims I gave myself an "out"... Take notice at what I did say... "All of these questions would need to be fleshed out much more and that would take more time that i want to take here on this blog." I think that great theologians have worked on these questions for an entire life time and Jim W. expects me to give full and complete answers here and now... He places his

Your questions:
Let me first state that these are not easy questions to answer. You are wanting a specific answer and i will fail at giving you THAT answer. All of these questions would need to be fleshed out much more and that would take more time that i want to take here on this blog.

2. Give me the emergent position. Give it clear.
a) What is sin?
Unbelief which manifests itself as disobedience.

b) How do people discover Jesus Christ?

By the calling of God through the Holy Spirit though it can happen in many ways.

c) What role does the bible play?

Jesus own words are this: “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.” So the scriptures role is to lead us to Jesus according to Jesus. In that it is the written revelation from God to man to help us learn by the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God through Jesus Christ.

c.1) Is the bible infallible?
In all that it speaks of yes.

c.2) Is the bible inerrant?
In all that it speaks of yes.

c.2) Is the bible true, for what it says, as it says it? Yes… which is what I have been trying to state to you throughout this whole thread.

Now, let me add this. I do not believe that there is any TRANSLATIONS of the bible that are infallible or inerrant… that does not mean I do not see that God’s written word is not either. I am willing to admit I struggle with inerrancy and infallibility as I see that the definition has changed from the time it was first used and how you are using them now. I am most certainly confident in the ability that God can overcome any shortcomings in bad translations. I am confident that God is true to His word. So i see even my struggle I am trusting God at His word and have placed my faith in Him. I trust Him completely.

AND THEY WONDER WHY I AM EMERGING!? Did you notice that James W. denies the words of Jesus who stated:

Matthew 7:17
Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.

Luke 6:43
[ A Tree and Its Fruit ] "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

i will note that Jim misses this verse also:

Matthew 10:17 "As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

We bear good fruit only because we are engrafted onto the Good Tree... we do not bear good fruit on our own. It is that we are engrafted on the Good Tree we bear His Good Fruit it is and never was and never will be ours until we are clothed in perfection and are changed from perishable to imperishable. We must be totally dependant on the works of Jesus for He is our Sabbath Rest. Jim negates this by adding "works" and justifies judging others fruit... and sorely misses the plank in his own eye. He has seemed to have forgotten that no one is worthy, no one is righteous... and that we are at the mercy of God Who has give us His great Grace... Jim has forgotten that "Mercy Triumphs over Judgment".

In one breath Jim W. stated "If we do not grasp our utter inability to reach God on our own merit, we will never be accepted into God’s kingdom." And then denied we are bad trees that need to totally depend on Jesus to bear any good fruit. He states that it is by us "obeying" God. Yet, he misses that 1 John states what this obedience is:

23. "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us."

He then showed me his love for me... yet God seemed to bring this verse to mind. 1 John 4: 15 - 21.

"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him.
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
We love because he first loved us.
If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother."

They speak out both sides of their mouths... as I have stated before. I think these speaks volumes of the fruit of Lordship Salvation. Now excuse me I think I need a towel from all the frothing spittle baptism I just received.

I would rather be a "pathetic little man" than be one who has forgotten how great the grace of God is and that I owe all to God and should only give away God's forgiveness, mercy, grace, and love... and in that be justified as I do that for it is all by God's Holy Spirit... for the greatest gift is love. I know that I have to forgotten this great love at times... so I in no way condemn Jim White... but i hope he sees the error of his ways and turns to Jesus to bear God's fruit instead of trying to produce it on his own by attempting to please God by his own obedience.

Paul stated in Galatans 5:1 - 26

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth?
That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough."
I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be.
Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

In closing I also quote Paul in Galatians 3:1-5

Galatians 3

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

I stand firmly in Christ who is the Author and Finisher of my faith and salvation.

Be Blessed,

Text here is part two

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