DAVE N has left a new comment on your post "J.I Packer and the Five Basic Truths":
I disagree with your statement that man is born innocent. The Scriptures do not teach that, do they? Job 15:14; Job 25:4; Ps 51:5; Rom 5:12;Also, you said, " I think man without God can make a moral choice" According to whose standard? Your's? I think its irrelevant! Lets talk about what God thinks, not Iggy. God is not interested in morality (according to man) He is interested in righteousness (obedience)! Rom 6:16; I John 2:29; 2 Cor 5:21;Lets keep the main thing, the main thing.
Dave N,
Great! Let’s keep the main thing the main thing… I have no problem in that…
First off you misrepresent what I have stated… Man can make a moral choice… even Calvin states that… You missed that I teach it be a “sustained” choice… meaning man fails! You left out half of what I actually teach. I think you have not read enough of me to know for certain as to what I do believe... a comment is not where I do my main teaching... LOL!
But let’s look at what your verses actually state OK? I am using KJV for its universality... though I prefer the NKJV.
Job 15: 14. What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Notice it states that he should “be” clean? It does not state man is born unclean… only that he “be” clean… that means that man still can be born innocent yet fail in his being clean by God’s standards.
Now also the point that Job states about “born of a woman”… this again is not stating that he is born evil… but again shows my point that man is not righteous and will fail in sustained righteousness…
Job 25:4. How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Job Is asking again the same question.. But this still does not state man is born “totally depraved”. The idea of being born of a woman means that man is born evil or “not innocent” is not a ”Christian” teaching but a Gnostic teaching. If you read the other “so called” gospels Gnostic teachings you will see this taught in the form of the Serpent Seed where some teach that Eve conceived a child from the Serpent… in that then all mankind is evil in its fleshly form…
I want to also point out that Job is not talking about woman being evil and passing on the "evil gene" (that will lead to issues later when we have a "perfect Jesus" "born of a woman". The phrase born of a woman means "lowly state" it is a sign of humility that God is immortal and man is mortal. Remember in Hebrews 2 6-7 it states:
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Man is made lower than the Angels who are immortal... that it one of the main points of the incarnation as Jesus "born of a woman" became a man... So to make
Psalms 51: 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
This is not about being born in sin rather that (if you have ever noticed) King David’s mother is not mentioned and we can only speculate as to who she is… This leaves us a bit of a question as to his heritage… and possibly that he was a bastard child… note David is the anti-type of Jesus who was also thought by many to be a bastard child… so again this is not stating man is born in sin… rather that his mother sinned when she conceived him.
Rom 5: 12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:.
Again, it is apparent that you have not read much of what I write and teach… as I do not deny man is under the covenant of death and will receive the wages of sin… Yet still in this verse show me where man is born totally depraved or that man is not born innocent.
Now, notice Romans Chapter One.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Notice here that man has clearly seen by the things made God’s Power and His Godhead.
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Notice also here that they knew God… yet made a choice not to glorify Him as God? They professed themselves to be wise? They worshipped idols by choice?
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Notice God then “Gives them up”? That they once were innocent but by their own choices turned to worship creation and not the Creator and God “gives them up”.
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Notice here that they did not “retain God in their knowledge”…. Meaning they did at one time… but forsook God?
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Man did know God… and this is not about Adam and Eve as Paul seems to make a distinction as to Adam and all mankind. Man can know God even today and choose to seek Him... but until man sees he cannot please God by his own standards and that God's ways are much higher... he will not be saved... it is when a man comes to the end of himself and understands that his good is not good enough and that though he may try and try, once he falls from innocence (as all men do Rom 3:23) he enters under the same covenant of death that Adam came under and in that without the sacrifice of Jesus and His resurrection no one can be saved.
Now the issue of obedience I will refer you to the verse below where you quoted me...
Rom 5:19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Notice it is not our obedience but Jesus'. Everything is imputed from Jesus... we do not walk in our OWN obedience as that is the issue in the first place... we have none to walk in... we do walk in the imputed obedience of Jesus for it is "through the obedience of the one man (Jesus) the many will be made righteous.
I then to do good must totally depend on Jesus to do God's will and purpose in and through me. I have no obedient "works" of my own to offer. (note also Phil 2:12-13)
Now also, I need to clarify, "innocent" does not mean "good" it is neutral as man has yet to sin... but that in his fallen nature will fall into sin.
Also, if you want more info on this topic Irenaeus on Free Will is a good thing to read as he was a contemporary with John the Apostle and a Disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp was directly discipled by John so there is some great heritage there.
Be Blessed,
iggy
I disagree with your statement that man is born innocent. The Scriptures do not teach that, do they? Job 15:14; Job 25:4; Ps 51:5; Rom 5:12;Also, you said, " I think man without God can make a moral choice" According to whose standard? Your's? I think its irrelevant! Lets talk about what God thinks, not Iggy. God is not interested in morality (according to man) He is interested in righteousness (obedience)! Rom 6:16; I John 2:29; 2 Cor 5:21;Lets keep the main thing, the main thing.
Dave N,
Great! Let’s keep the main thing the main thing… I have no problem in that…
First off you misrepresent what I have stated… Man can make a moral choice… even Calvin states that… You missed that I teach it be a “sustained” choice… meaning man fails! You left out half of what I actually teach. I think you have not read enough of me to know for certain as to what I do believe... a comment is not where I do my main teaching... LOL!
But let’s look at what your verses actually state OK? I am using KJV for its universality... though I prefer the NKJV.
Job 15: 14. What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Notice it states that he should “be” clean? It does not state man is born unclean… only that he “be” clean… that means that man still can be born innocent yet fail in his being clean by God’s standards.
Now also the point that Job states about “born of a woman”… this again is not stating that he is born evil… but again shows my point that man is not righteous and will fail in sustained righteousness…
Job 25:4. How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Job Is asking again the same question.. But this still does not state man is born “totally depraved”. The idea of being born of a woman means that man is born evil or “not innocent” is not a ”Christian” teaching but a Gnostic teaching. If you read the other “so called” gospels Gnostic teachings you will see this taught in the form of the Serpent Seed where some teach that Eve conceived a child from the Serpent… in that then all mankind is evil in its fleshly form…
I want to also point out that Job is not talking about woman being evil and passing on the "evil gene" (that will lead to issues later when we have a "perfect Jesus" "born of a woman". The phrase born of a woman means "lowly state" it is a sign of humility that God is immortal and man is mortal. Remember in Hebrews 2 6-7 it states:
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Man is made lower than the Angels who are immortal... that it one of the main points of the incarnation as Jesus "born of a woman" became a man... So to make
Psalms 51: 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
This is not about being born in sin rather that (if you have ever noticed) King David’s mother is not mentioned and we can only speculate as to who she is… This leaves us a bit of a question as to his heritage… and possibly that he was a bastard child… note David is the anti-type of Jesus who was also thought by many to be a bastard child… so again this is not stating man is born in sin… rather that his mother sinned when she conceived him.
Rom 5: 12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:.
Again, it is apparent that you have not read much of what I write and teach… as I do not deny man is under the covenant of death and will receive the wages of sin… Yet still in this verse show me where man is born totally depraved or that man is not born innocent.
Now, notice Romans Chapter One.
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Notice here that man has clearly seen by the things made God’s Power and His Godhead.
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Notice also here that they knew God… yet made a choice not to glorify Him as God? They professed themselves to be wise? They worshipped idols by choice?
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Notice God then “Gives them up”? That they once were innocent but by their own choices turned to worship creation and not the Creator and God “gives them up”.
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Notice here that they did not “retain God in their knowledge”…. Meaning they did at one time… but forsook God?
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Man did know God… and this is not about Adam and Eve as Paul seems to make a distinction as to Adam and all mankind. Man can know God even today and choose to seek Him... but until man sees he cannot please God by his own standards and that God's ways are much higher... he will not be saved... it is when a man comes to the end of himself and understands that his good is not good enough and that though he may try and try, once he falls from innocence (as all men do Rom 3:23) he enters under the same covenant of death that Adam came under and in that without the sacrifice of Jesus and His resurrection no one can be saved.
Now the issue of obedience I will refer you to the verse below where you quoted me...
Rom 5:19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Notice it is not our obedience but Jesus'. Everything is imputed from Jesus... we do not walk in our OWN obedience as that is the issue in the first place... we have none to walk in... we do walk in the imputed obedience of Jesus for it is "through the obedience of the one man (Jesus) the many will be made righteous.
I then to do good must totally depend on Jesus to do God's will and purpose in and through me. I have no obedient "works" of my own to offer. (note also Phil 2:12-13)
Now also, I need to clarify, "innocent" does not mean "good" it is neutral as man has yet to sin... but that in his fallen nature will fall into sin.
Also, if you want more info on this topic Irenaeus on Free Will is a good thing to read as he was a contemporary with John the Apostle and a Disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp was directly discipled by John so there is some great heritage there.
Be Blessed,
iggy
2 comments:
Iggy,
You have the biggest/longest blog roll I've ever seen.LOL
Have a great day.
Blessed?
Chris
A lot of those people are friends... believe it or not!
Be Blessed,
iggy
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