Tuesday, March 27, 2007

Modernistic fighting over Objective Truth is Unbiblical

Modernistic fighting over Objective Truth is Unbiblical

First off, I am not saying we cannot use the “tools” of modernism or postmodernism… yet there seems to be this misunderstanding in Christianity about certain “terms” that have been infused into “Christian” theology.

One of the terms you will not see in the Bible is objective/subjective in regards to truth. Search every passage on truth and it is not there.

So where did this idea come from…

It was not Moses or Jesus, or even Paul, but rather it was Plato! This same Plato that Irenaeus wrote extensively against as teaching heresy…

Plato's realism taught that truth was only an abstraction… Plato believed that “ideas” were more real than real things. Plato created a vision of two worlds… or what is called “Dualism”. In these two worlds one was of “unchanging ideas” while the other was of changing physical objects.

Again, Plato was teaching a form of Gnosticism… this is the same idea that is taught today by many of the modern church… they are teaching Gnosticism without even realizing it!

The first usage of the phrase “objective truth” was used by German mathematician Gottlob Frege as he was writing against Immanuel Kant. Again, notice that the phrase was not used until the early nineteenth century and by “philosophers”.

The idea again of “objective truth” is the view that there is a reality or realm of objects and facts existing outside and independent of the mind.

Now, there is some use to these terms, yet if one seems to think that by using them they are “more” biblical than someone else… beware.

So what does the Bible say about “Truth”?

It states pretty plainly that Truth is the Person of Jesus Christ.

In that Jesus is a Person… more He is Person within the Godhead.… it is a bit strange that one would fight to objectionize truth… for it is in fact objectionizing God… God is not an “object” like a rock or tree… He is a Person… relatable and wanting to reveal Who He is to those who seek after Him… To turn truth into an object removes the Biblical teaching the God is Living…

We are called to abide or dwell in Christ Jesus… Jesus was full of Grace an Truth… so as we dwell in Christ we are dwelling in His Grace and Truth. We are told also that Jesus is “The Way, The Truth, and the Life”.
So, do not get caught up in vain man made philosophies that though may be helpful in trying grapple in our understanding of Spiritual things, yet must be understood that often they are not “biblical” at their root.

Blessings,
iggy

11 comments:

GalatiansC4V16 said...


“So what does the Bible say about “Truth”?

It states pretty plainly that Truth is the Person of Jesus Christ.”


So what does Jesus say about “Truth?”

He states pretty plainly that Truth is God’s Word.

“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.” John 17:17

“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2017:17;&version=49;”

iggy said...

Hi Tony,

Welcome!

Actually take a look at the verse in the Greek...

In it the word for "word" is "logos" So, the literal transliteration would be "thy logo is truth"... notice in John 1 that John uses Logos of Jesus?

Also, notice that Jesus states that He is "THE Truth" in John 14:6.

So are you saying that Jesus is not the logos in the context of John and that this can only mean the Bible?

I beg to differ as rarely in the Greek is the word "logos" used of Scripture.

This is a bit of a long passage to quote but here goes... I will put my thought after each verse.


John 17

1. After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
2. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

First off this is the context of this as this is Jesus praying for those God gave Him. The topic is as you notice “Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.” It is not about the scripture/bible as you state. That is point one.

3. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
4. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
5. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
6. "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

Notice will this is about Jesus and the context has not moved to the scripture/bible Jesus seems to like using the words “I” and “ME” and “you”… LOL!

7. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.
8. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
9. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

No notice that Jesus is speaking of His words… “I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.” This is the only place that the possibly that it is scripture/bible yet I still see that Jesus did not intend that as the meaning as Jesus goes on to state that these who God gave Him “. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.” Which seems to steer the context back to Himself.


10. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
11. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
12. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13. "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.
14. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
15. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
17. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
18. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
19. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Notice how Jesus used the verse “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.” in context He has talked about Himself as the one which is “Truth”.

John 17

1. After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
2. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
3. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
4. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
5. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
6. "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
7. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.
8. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
9. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
10. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
11. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
12. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13. "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.
14. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
15. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
17. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
18. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
19. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.


Interestingly also is that if you expand the context of the verse you quoted you will see this Jesus consistently bring this pray to be centered on Himself… the final proof is verse 19… “For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.”

So, it seems that you must really stretch this verse to be a proof text as you are using it. As this is clearly a passage centered on Jesus being the “word” just as the context of John stated in the very first chapter.

Again, are you sure that Jesus is as Webster’s defines “objective truth”? Again, being that the scripture states that the scripture is “living” how can it be held to the Webster’s definition of “objective truth”… It seems that if this is your best verse it lacks all the power of the punch you intended it to be. In fact it seems you must wrench it out of context to prove you point… which seems to deny the “truth” you are fighting for or at least changing it to fit your theology... instead of letting is say what it says and changing you.

Be Blessed,
iggy

GalatiansC4V16 said...

Nope, not saying that all. Just saying that Psalm 119 states that all of God's Words are true, and Jesus agreed.

Jesus was the Truth, and He confirmed the Scriptures are true.

tr

iggy said...

Tony R,

Actually you are taking a chapter in John and a chapter in the OT and mixing the two totally out of context from each other. You are prooftexting two separate verses as opposed to that I just took pretty much the whole chapter and showed the context.

Secondly, I agree and have stated this to you numerous times and yet once again you insist on fighting over what we agree with... I agree that there is the Author of Truth who is Truth and that he teaches Truth, yet still do not see this as "just" objective as it relates to us.

Weird... and you have yet to answer how Jesus and the bible are as Webster's defines "objective truth"...

So try again, you are still putting your own theology in the place of what the bible teaches plainly. As usual it seems you make my position more secure eac time I talk to you as I see how you take things way out of context and use it to prove your theology in back your own doctrines... it should be the other way around.

Be Blessed,
iggy

iggy said...

Tony,

Also I might point out that Jesus stated of all Scripture in John 5: 37. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
38. nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.
39. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40. yet you refuse to come to me to have life.


Notice that all scirpture is about Jesus... so even Psalm 119 is about Jesus and not the scirpture... you seem to miss this basic understanding of Who Jesus is... He is the Word incarnate... your very argument seems to negate that.

Be Blessed,
iggy

GalatiansC4V16 said...

I'm sorry Iggy, did I say all of that? I searched the page and didn't find any of that in my words. I just said the Word of God is true and that Jesus confirmed that, which can be substantiated from Scripture without proof-texting. Why are you making up things I didn't say and forcing a disagreement where there isn't one?

Look above at how you claim I said, when I didn't:

You said,
So are you saying that Jesus is not the logos in the context of John and that this can only mean the Bible?

I beg to differ as rarely in the Greek is the word "logos" used of Scripture.


But I never said that Jesus wasn't the logos, you just assumed I did and then answered something I didn't claim.

Likewise I am not proof-texting or putting a theology in place. Jesus and the Bible both claim the Scriptures are the Word of God and they are true.

Jesus is the Truth and the Bible is God's Word, which is true.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, o that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:16-17

GalatiansC4V16 said...

Iggy,

It’s interesting that you would say that I am proof-texting just because I am saying “these passages mean this.” Since they do mean what I am saying they mean, I am not proof-texting. If they said something other than what I claim they do, that would be proof-texting. The irony is that this is exactly what you did with John 17:17 and John 1:1.

Sure “logos” in John 1:1 means that Jesus is the Word. But that is because the passage tells us that when it says “the Word was God,” and then in verse 14 of the same context John tells us that “the Word became flesh.” The current context tells us that Jesus was the Word.

However, that doesn’t give us the prerogative to substitute “Jesus” for “logos” in the rest of Scripture where the context of the passages clearly does not indicate that is the meaning. In John 17:17 Jesus is asking the Father to “Sanctify them in truth,” and then proclaims that God’s word is truth. There is no contextual indication that Jesus was talking about himself or equating the word “logos” with himself. He was simply using the word “logos” in the context of their language to indicate that God’s Words are true.

The greek word “logos” means “word.” The only reason it is equated with Jesus in John 1:1 is because John also said “the Word was God” and “the Word became flesh.” Due to this, in John 1 we can equate Jesus with the “logos,” but that doesn’t mean we can do it everywhere in Scripture as you have done with John 17:17.

This hermeneutic you are using explains to me why you come away with saying things like there are no doctrines outside of Jesus. If you substitute meanings for words in one place with what they meant elsewhere, without regards to the current contextual meanings, you can come up with all sorts of erroneous things. The Bible is not a book of codes where we decipher one thing over here (ok, Jesus is the logos in this passage where it clearly says it) and then substituted it everywhere else (so it must mean it everywhere else) when the other contexts don’t indicate that is what it means.

tr

iggy said...

tr,

1. I have not put words in your mouth... in fact did you notice that I asked a question to clarify your position?

2. I keep asking this but you refuse to answer.... if we agree then why are you arguing with me? That seems a little... strange.

3. The point we seem to differ on is that you do not see Jesus as MORE than "objective truth"... and seem to be saying He is not. Again i agreed with you many times in the past that we have conversed that I agree that Jesus is the Truth and Truth is the Person of Jesus Christ and that He taught truth... but I see that "objective truth" is not a biblical term as far as it's limitations by its own definition... I mean (again notice this is not putting words in your mouth but a clarifying question) are you asserting Jesus is just an "abstract thought"? That is what i am stating is wrong with the idea of "absolute truth". I see that Jesus is THE REALITY as Hebrews teaches. So we are at a major disagreement there IF that is your position. (again this is not putting words in your mouth but seeking clarity in what you are saying becasue this is what i am hearing... since you keep insisting we disagree.)

Also, your hermeneutics is a bit off... as you cannot force a context in Psalms on a passage in John... you need to take the passage in context, then the book and authors intent and then you can move on to the fuller context of scripture.

What you are doing is taking a passage that has a specific meaning an purpose then placing it into a different context.

Also, in your first post with all its "clarity" you seemed to be saying (as you have also in other discussions we have had) that Jesus is subject to the written word. I think that I have adequately stated the bibles position ( elsewhere wit you) as Jesus stated in John 5:39-40.

Again, you have not answered my questions and seem to insist on me being wrong no matter what... even on the points we agree on... I see not need to continue this bit of lunacy you are afflicting me with and this is also the reason I stopped posting on your blog. You keep insisting that YOU know more of what I believe that I do... Is your name really Clair Voyant? LOL!

I hope that someday you will realize that I do know what I believe better than you do and that you will stop just making things up about me and "emergents". It seems you are a divisive man and i agree with scripture and will avoid you in the future.

Be filled with the fullness of Christ Jesus,
iggy

GalatiansC4V16 said...

Iggy,

I was not forcing a context on Psalms into John. I simply stated a truth from Psalms, "God's Word is true," and gave evidence that Jesus agreed with that truth from John.

I've explained John 17:17 and John 1:1 to you in my last post. No need to rehash.

To be honest, what you said in point #3 in your last comment is incomprehensible to me. My brain hurts trying to figure out what you are saying.

C’est la vie,
tr

John J. Kaiser said...

"do not get caught up in vain man made philosophies that though may be helpful in trying grapple in our understanding of Spiritual things, yet must be understood that often they are not “biblical” at their root."

Reminds me of a church I once attended where all members were forbidden to consume any type or amount of alcohol. They claimed a biblical basis for their policy, but it seemed to be steeped much more in culture than Christ's word.

J. Kaiser
http://totaltransformation.wordpress.com

iggy said...

John,

I am not totally sure to what part you are referring to... but to me I came out that type of situation.

I know that is why I may stand and fight for freedom in Christ free of things like adding qualifiers to make truth more true.

I see Jesus as more than enough to save me and His grace as more than enough to sustain me.

I stand on His obedience as i have none of my own to stand on... Roman 5:19 speaks of that.

In my conversations with these people I hear them speak of Grace and then negate it with "being obedience to bear fruit"... then they justify judging others by their own fruit as "once you are a Christian and are obedient YOU bear good fruit".

I am a bad tree and never will bear good fruit... but I will bear God's good fruit in and through me by His Grace as I stand on the obedience of Christ Jesus.

they can't see the difference... I know I could not until God showed me His Grace and radically changed me.


thanks for you comments

Blessings,
iggy