Sunday, November 11, 2007

Great Quotes (kind of): Steve Camp

"When a pastor continually makes light of the character of our Lord by speaking in scatological tones about the Son of Man’s bodily functions in incarnation or wearing T-Shirts that rather mock the King of Righteousness rather than glorify Him, then something is terribly awry." ~ Steve Camp on Mark Driscoll in comments.

Then he holds up Martin Luther with great reverence... promoting this "Great Reformer".



Yet, here is the real Martin Luther... btw there is a warning that this site is very crude... as these are real Martin Luther quotes and anti Semitic statements.

(A bit of a disclaimer about the link here... the quotes are accurate and Luther seemed to also like to say the "s" word... yep that "scatological tone" was not just a tone as with Driscoll... the man had no qualms using it as one of his favorite cuss words... But the guy at this site made me laugh as he uses some bizarre reasoning to say Luther was not even saved! LOL!... Then basically states what Luther based his whole life on as the only way to salvation.... "saved by grace through faith"! LOL! So, I do not endorse the site but found it entertaining in his circular reasoning... again the quotes are pure Luther.)


Now, I am not a fan of Mark Driscoll... and I admit I may have gone a bit overboard at the link above were Camp is quoted. Yet, this continual double standard that comes from Steve Camp is at best embarrassing and at worse a sore blind spot he has yet to acknowledge in himself before he attacks others.

Also, I am not against Martin Luther. I just think that candy-coating him or any of the "great reformers" is dishonest. They were all frail men with huge flaws just like myself.

I point to Steve Camp only to show that some who cast stones and hold a righteousness of themselves over others, fail to see that no one is righteous... and all have sinned. To attack Driscoll as Camp is doing then hold up a foul mouthed reformer... is very hypocritical.

Now, before you state I am doing the same thing, this is the huge difference. I have an open door to reconciliation... and as you may have read, Steve is attacking Driscoll over a supposedly offended brother, (which we have no idea if he was actually offended) and not giving Driscoll any grace over his confession in lacking humility... in fact as you read the "MacArthurite" comments even his confession is held suspect. That is not only sad, but sick. I hold that Steve is already forgiven, but will be held in bondage by his own legalistic standard... and not truly experience the Grace of God in all fullness unless he can see his own double standards and turn to God. I hope to only warn Steve in the Love of Jesus... and not attacking him personally.
Oh if you think I am being unkind to Steve Camp... here are some other quotes by him concerning Mark...
Carla:
"Very good post--thank you.
Mark is a marketeer and that's what all this is about. He has some books coming out first quarter next year; he wants to stir some additional attention to himself; so he promotes in acerbic tones this ridiculous campaign that some people think is a serious theological venture; he snarkastically mocks those who post serious biblical questions (see last Sunday's message); he's again relishing in all the attention.
For some zealous bloggers who are enamored with Mark to suggest that he's the next Billy Graham is beyond funny. In fact I was laughing so hard when reading that, that some reformed brothers I was with thought I had experienced the Toronto Blessing.
Mark hasn't done anything for biblical evangelism to date. His church grows primarily through attrition; not first time conversions. (*Note: Lordship Salvation offers no assurance, but makes one constantly look at their own fruit to make sure they are still elect! It is a performance based theology based on works. Also, I am not sure Steve knows what attrition means as how can a church grow bigger and smaller at the same time? If he means that it grew out of the other churches in the area losing members, then he need look at how John MacArthur's church grew out of the population of Roman Catholics who left that church in the early days and joined Macarthur's... ) I was at Mark'sHill about a month ago and attended a service there. A few observations: there was no public reading of God's Word; there was no corporate worship taking place; there was no time of corporate prayer; there was no biblical instruction before the entire church took communion; there was no sense of community or connectedness whatsoever; it was not a worship service, it was a very well produced performance. There was event security everywhere just hanging out with black t-shirts on that you would find at any professional wrestling event. It's all part of the image.On the positive side: the technology out there is second to none; very organized - really great. It's obvious that's where the money goes. And I have to say, that the coffee in the coffee bar afterwards was really fantastic!
Mark's not an expositor, he's a performer. The sermon was lightweight in terms of biblical content and doctrine. In fact, he missed the text that day (Phil.1:1) - but hey, what does it matter, the videos, computer graphics and lights were amazing. If he spent as much time on the text as he did on the technology it might be different. And then there is the music. Oh my. Poorly executed, very trendy, alternative, garage band tunes. I don't know who was up there leading that particular service, but the guy couldn't sing--I mean it was painful - dogs and cats screaming! (*Note: I might mention the first time I heard Steve he sounded very forced and marginal at best, but I loved his early stuff as he had a very strong evangelistic spirit about his music.)
What's all this mean? It means that Mark is young, inexperienced as a Bible teacher, and needs time to mature in the faith. It means that he is more promoter than pastor. Is he the next Billy Graham? - not unless you do ministry by comic books. Will he do more for Christian evangelism since Billy Graham by just answering nine questions on a blog turned book? Not a chance; it will have the same impact as Kathy Lee Gifford singing "You Light Up My Life" on The View.
Mark'sHill Church is really just a giant youth group meeting; and if it took place on a Friday night at a large pragmatic, seeker friendly church say in the Chicago area, it would fit in quite nicely. This is not serious, deep, biblical theology being presented. In Seattle language, it is a nonfat, caffeine free latte, with a shot of air. Mostly foam, little bean. (* Like songs about foul mouthed Martin Luther and the Wittenburg door? Just asking...)
Ask-anything-Mark? Why... he has little to say. If you want your questions answered just read your Bibles and study with great men like MacArthur, Sproul, Edwards, Owens, Watson, Pink, Calvin and Spurgeon--you won't be disappointed.
That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Keep on Carla - this was a really good article. Steve 2 Cor. 4:5-7 SJ Camp"
Really nice stuff there huh? Lot's of name calling and very little Grace to Mark.
Now remember Steve Camp goes to John MacArthur's (Grace to you) church (thus the name drop in the midst of some truly great bible teachers) and was introduced as "Keith Green with theology." Personally, I would rather be introduced as one who truly loves Jesus and not that I am "theological"... but all this points to the type of arrogance that is produced by the theology at "Grace to you"... as it all points to Steve being more right(ous) than Mark and Steve putting Mark down as a fraud out to sell books and not truly having a confessional faith in Jesus Christ... He shows the lack of true faith and grace that comes with knowing Jesus in a personal way and that is why I call out that Steve return to his first love Jesus and forsake mental assent in a belief in God through doctrines. Note, I am in no way stating Steve is not saved... I believe him to be a sincere believer... but under some very bad doctrine.
All that said, I really commend Carla for this comment to Frank Turk of Team Pyro fame...
"Frank: I have deleted your second comment here simply because I cannot tolerate that sort of insulting tone here at this blog. Just FYI. Carla Rolfe"
So even some of the reformed fans are also getting a bit irritated with these guys!

Be blessed,
iggy



3 comments:

Free Believers in Arizona said...

I always thought Steve Camp's music was a bit too legalistic for my taste. Arrogence is very difficult to hide. Some people don't even try to hide there arrogence because they are not aware it even exists.

I too am of the scholl that we should not exalt imperfect people.

Bruce said...

Steve Camp has come long way since his rock star days. I have watched as he has become narrower and harder on everything/everyone he disagrees with. Little grace or charity, yet he is held up as a reformed defender of the faith.

I remember hearing Steve at a concert near South Bend, In. HE was there with David Meece. He spent very little time singing. Most of his time was spent preaching up the reformed position on justification by faith.

Hmm..........Christian concert.......we are there to hearing singing and what we get instead is a sermon (and a long one at that) I would think he was preaching to the choir? Nah, he had a point to prove and he made it, over and over and over.

I still listen to Steve's music but I have little use for his politics or his agenda.

Brendt said...

There was event security everywhere just hanging out with black t-shirts on that you would find at any professional wrestling event.

$20 says that at Steve's church, there are guys with suits on that you would find Vince McMahon wearing at any professional wrestling event.

Yeah, I know he said other stuff in his drive-by of Mars Hill, but this "observation" was so infantile, everything else could be spot-on (not that it is) and still would be completely nullified by it.