If you noticed that the "Ben Hates Me" post is gone, I deleted it.
After some prayer, reflection and friends' Godly advice, I decided that I am reacting to this whole "Ben" thing rather idiotically and childish...
Though he has done everything he can to undermine and destroy this ministry, I totally and unconditionally forgive him.
He is free to write what he wants and say whatever he believes he needs to say.
I know I have done and said some things that have not been "in love" and confess that to all. Because of that I ask for Ben's forgiveness.
In that I ask the readers' forgiveness also.
I am looking forward and upward to do as God has called me...
Blessings,
iggy
Monday, July 31, 2006
Sunday, July 30, 2006
Hands
Hands!
A basketball in my hands is worth about $19.
A basketball in Michael Jordan's hands is worth about $33 million.
It depends whose hands it's in.
A baseball in my hands is worth about $6.
A baseball in Mark McGuire's hands is worth $19 million.
It depends on whose hands it's in.
A tennis racket is useless in my hands.
A tennis racket in Venus Williams' hands is a championship winning.
It depends whose hands it's in.
A rod in my hands will keep away a wild animal.
A rod in Moses' hands will part the mighty sea.
It depends whose hands it's in.
A sling shot in my hands is a kid's toy.
A sling shot in David's hand is a mighty weapon.
It depends whose hands it's in.
Two fish and 5 loaves of bread in my hands is a couple of fish sandwiches.
Two fish and 5 loaves of bread in God's hands will feed thousands.
It depends whose hands it's in.
Nails in my hands might produce a birdhouse.
Nails in Jesus Christ's hands will produce salvation for the entire world.
It depends whose hands it's in.
Author unknown
Blessings,
iggy
A basketball in my hands is worth about $19.
A basketball in Michael Jordan's hands is worth about $33 million.
It depends whose hands it's in.
A baseball in my hands is worth about $6.
A baseball in Mark McGuire's hands is worth $19 million.
It depends on whose hands it's in.
A tennis racket is useless in my hands.
A tennis racket in Venus Williams' hands is a championship winning.
It depends whose hands it's in.
A rod in my hands will keep away a wild animal.
A rod in Moses' hands will part the mighty sea.
It depends whose hands it's in.
A sling shot in my hands is a kid's toy.
A sling shot in David's hand is a mighty weapon.
It depends whose hands it's in.
Two fish and 5 loaves of bread in my hands is a couple of fish sandwiches.
Two fish and 5 loaves of bread in God's hands will feed thousands.
It depends whose hands it's in.
Nails in my hands might produce a birdhouse.
Nails in Jesus Christ's hands will produce salvation for the entire world.
It depends whose hands it's in.
Author unknown
Blessings,
iggy
Emerging Church Asks Questions the Modern Church Ignores
Emerging Church Asks Questions the Modern Church Ignores
Recently a challenge was set out for “EC’ers worth their biblical salt”, (what ever that means) to answer some questions about Brian McLaren… yet I have not seen one Modern really address the issues we are discussing in the EC conversation. Many seem to deny that this is the “postmodern age” thus one is by default a “postmodern” just as living in the “modern age” made one a modern.
Yet, as a person of faith in Christ Jesus, it is not in the age we get our identity, not in the (Often vain) philosophies and ideals of that age, but rather in Christ Himself… In that the bible is clear we are to engage the culture in which we live, just as the early believers did following the Resurrection… as nothing has changed from the time of the Great Commission. That is to me the simplified understanding of being missional. To engage culture to spread the Good News, the same one they spread in scripture… that Jesus Christ is risen. (Acts 5:42).
We are to live out our faith… not let it stagnate in gospel ghettos, or Christianized national theologies (which is the reason that Hitler rose o power in Germany and no Christian churches stood up to him but accepted that the “Jews killed Jesus, so we should kill the Jews). To me if one reads some of the outtakes of Hitler's speeches one will realize he had a form of Christianity… I see it as the pinnacle of “modernism” as it stood for supremacy through brute force… and even love was redefined as being radical politically and in their religion… in other words they combined the two in some sick hybrid Christianity of a National Faith…. Much like both the liberal left and conservative right to with their faith… it becomes a weapon of destruction instead of having the power to restore, heal, and reconcile… it is set on devouring those who oppose the ideals of that nations religious structure.
Now we can participate in our govt and I see that as the ‘right’ thing to do as a citizen. Yet, it should always be done by Christians from the view that we are not of this fallen world any more. We are citizens of Heaven now. Yet, I still see that that is where the modern church is heading… and the symptoms are in their speak… like “God hate fags” on the extreme along with abortion clinic bombings and on the other as God is used as a political tool to get votes by using the churches to promote govt social programs.
Jesus and the Church were never meant to be pawns or tools in man’s political structure. Jesus and the Church were never intended to spread an empire other than the Kingdom of God. To attach it to man’s agenda, we only see a sick twisted religion which faintly looks like Christianity (like the case of Hitler) or a weak anemic Christianity that is nothing but a nicety in it’s symbolism.
So the first real question I will ask is this:
In an article By Will McRaney FIRST-PERSON: Sharing Christ with the confused Feb 12, 2004 Baptist Press
“We live in a postmodern context in which people no longer are looking to the institutional church for answers to their deep spiritual questions and needs as their grandparents and parents did. Therefore, of the three major categories of evangelism -- attraction, projection and media -- projection strategies will have to play an increasing role: Like Jesus depended upon His disciples, the church will become increasingly dependent upon its body to communicate its message outside the walls of the church.”
Yet, the focus is most often not about “going to the lost”, but rather getting them to come to church… it is as though we replaced Jesus with the institution of church-ianity. It seems that the modern view of the gospel is to just sit in churches as send delegates (missionaries) to reach the world. Instead, we Christians are called to engage and live and to be like the Romans when in Rome… as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 9. This is not as some accuse Brian McLaren as saying, to “smoke, drink, fornicate, or party down” or whatever silliness moderns accuse EC’ers of teaching and doing… to quote Brian McLaren… and in context I might add as that is often not the case (most miss his sense of humor and tongue in cheek approach even if he points it out in the footnotes, they seem to see that twisting his words and adding their interpretation of what he says is the same as what he said… it seems that it is not just the Bible they do it with). Here is a quote from A Generous Orthodoxy on being Incarnational page 251:
“There are two things this incarnation ministry is not. It is not some kind of a dishonest spy network, where one pretends to be something one is not, like an internet pedophile who pretends to be a teenager so he can enter their trust, or like a network marketer who pretends to be your friend so he can add you to his down-line. And again, neither is it a kind of “everybody-is-okay/all-religions-are- equally true” relativist/pluralist tolerance, where I smoke weed with the Rastafarians, chant with the Hare Krishnas, bow toward Mecca with the Muslims, and dance with the Pentecostals because” it’s all good, it’s all fun, it’s all mellow, and it doesn’t matter which religion (if any?) you believed as long as you’re sincere, man” If you take what I am saying and turn it into either of these approaches, you’re smoking some kind of weed yourself, I think.”
With that I would agree entirely and the amazing thing I have seen Brian accused of saying that by people who claim to have read this very book! It is classick, “missing the point”. But I digress.
So the question is this:
“Programs! Get your programs!” One of my personal critics is that we have become a programs driven church…. I hear it many times that “my church has some great programs.” And I fight from saying,”but do you know Jesus… have you ever been taught by the Holy Spirit?” I guess I am afraid they might not know how to answer. It seems we have become complacent with developing programs (which in and of themselves is not a bad thing) and instead of letting the Holy Spirit teach and lead, we make “converts” go through programs to show they are ready for ministry… this is also happening in our seminaries as young minds go to find more out about the church and Jesus and come out having reduced it all from a “LIFE LIVED” to a “system of theology” or “better programs”. I see great danger in losing sight of direct discipleship and becoming more of a program driven church… as we may fall victim to have a “form of godliness” and miss out a real opportunity to find Jesus. This also runs the risk of the error of the Pharisee who would keep perfect doctrine himself, yet give those under him a less stricter doctrine, which led Jesus to say, “ you make others twice as fit for hell as you are yourself.” (Matt 23)
So the question is this:
3. Why are modern churches content in programs over the Holy Spirit?
I will have more questions later… I am sure this is enough to chew on for a while.
Blessings
iggy
Technorati tags:
"Carlos Shelton", be a blessing, Beyond emerging church, Beyond emerging thought, Beyond propositional truth, Blessings, Christianity, Ekklesia, Emerging church, Follower of Christ, Generous Orthodoxy , iggy, iggynation, Imperial , In Christ, Missional, Modernity, Post-modernity, Postmodern, Redeemed, Religious spirit, Theology, Thoughts , Truth, Truth Abides, Values, Walk in the Spirit, Word of Mouth Ministries
Recently a challenge was set out for “EC’ers worth their biblical salt”, (what ever that means) to answer some questions about Brian McLaren… yet I have not seen one Modern really address the issues we are discussing in the EC conversation. Many seem to deny that this is the “postmodern age” thus one is by default a “postmodern” just as living in the “modern age” made one a modern.
Yet, as a person of faith in Christ Jesus, it is not in the age we get our identity, not in the (Often vain) philosophies and ideals of that age, but rather in Christ Himself… In that the bible is clear we are to engage the culture in which we live, just as the early believers did following the Resurrection… as nothing has changed from the time of the Great Commission. That is to me the simplified understanding of being missional. To engage culture to spread the Good News, the same one they spread in scripture… that Jesus Christ is risen. (Acts 5:42).
We are to live out our faith… not let it stagnate in gospel ghettos, or Christianized national theologies (which is the reason that Hitler rose o power in Germany and no Christian churches stood up to him but accepted that the “Jews killed Jesus, so we should kill the Jews). To me if one reads some of the outtakes of Hitler's speeches one will realize he had a form of Christianity… I see it as the pinnacle of “modernism” as it stood for supremacy through brute force… and even love was redefined as being radical politically and in their religion… in other words they combined the two in some sick hybrid Christianity of a National Faith…. Much like both the liberal left and conservative right to with their faith… it becomes a weapon of destruction instead of having the power to restore, heal, and reconcile… it is set on devouring those who oppose the ideals of that nations religious structure.
Now we can participate in our govt and I see that as the ‘right’ thing to do as a citizen. Yet, it should always be done by Christians from the view that we are not of this fallen world any more. We are citizens of Heaven now. Yet, I still see that that is where the modern church is heading… and the symptoms are in their speak… like “God hate fags” on the extreme along with abortion clinic bombings and on the other as God is used as a political tool to get votes by using the churches to promote govt social programs.
Jesus and the Church were never meant to be pawns or tools in man’s political structure. Jesus and the Church were never intended to spread an empire other than the Kingdom of God. To attach it to man’s agenda, we only see a sick twisted religion which faintly looks like Christianity (like the case of Hitler) or a weak anemic Christianity that is nothing but a nicety in it’s symbolism.
So the first real question I will ask is this:
- Why is modernism content with mixing Jesus and the church with a worldly political agenda?
In an article By Will McRaney FIRST-PERSON: Sharing Christ with the confused Feb 12, 2004 Baptist Press
“We live in a postmodern context in which people no longer are looking to the institutional church for answers to their deep spiritual questions and needs as their grandparents and parents did. Therefore, of the three major categories of evangelism -- attraction, projection and media -- projection strategies will have to play an increasing role: Like Jesus depended upon His disciples, the church will become increasingly dependent upon its body to communicate its message outside the walls of the church.”
Yet, the focus is most often not about “going to the lost”, but rather getting them to come to church… it is as though we replaced Jesus with the institution of church-ianity. It seems that the modern view of the gospel is to just sit in churches as send delegates (missionaries) to reach the world. Instead, we Christians are called to engage and live and to be like the Romans when in Rome… as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 9. This is not as some accuse Brian McLaren as saying, to “smoke, drink, fornicate, or party down” or whatever silliness moderns accuse EC’ers of teaching and doing… to quote Brian McLaren… and in context I might add as that is often not the case (most miss his sense of humor and tongue in cheek approach even if he points it out in the footnotes, they seem to see that twisting his words and adding their interpretation of what he says is the same as what he said… it seems that it is not just the Bible they do it with). Here is a quote from A Generous Orthodoxy on being Incarnational page 251:
“There are two things this incarnation ministry is not. It is not some kind of a dishonest spy network, where one pretends to be something one is not, like an internet pedophile who pretends to be a teenager so he can enter their trust, or like a network marketer who pretends to be your friend so he can add you to his down-line. And again, neither is it a kind of “everybody-is-okay/all-religions-are- equally true” relativist/pluralist tolerance, where I smoke weed with the Rastafarians, chant with the Hare Krishnas, bow toward Mecca with the Muslims, and dance with the Pentecostals because” it’s all good, it’s all fun, it’s all mellow, and it doesn’t matter which religion (if any?) you believed as long as you’re sincere, man” If you take what I am saying and turn it into either of these approaches, you’re smoking some kind of weed yourself, I think.”
With that I would agree entirely and the amazing thing I have seen Brian accused of saying that by people who claim to have read this very book! It is classick, “missing the point”. But I digress.
So the question is this:
2. Why are we focused on growing our own little empires, (Churches/denominations) and not focused on getting people to Jesus?
“Programs! Get your programs!” One of my personal critics is that we have become a programs driven church…. I hear it many times that “my church has some great programs.” And I fight from saying,”but do you know Jesus… have you ever been taught by the Holy Spirit?” I guess I am afraid they might not know how to answer. It seems we have become complacent with developing programs (which in and of themselves is not a bad thing) and instead of letting the Holy Spirit teach and lead, we make “converts” go through programs to show they are ready for ministry… this is also happening in our seminaries as young minds go to find more out about the church and Jesus and come out having reduced it all from a “LIFE LIVED” to a “system of theology” or “better programs”. I see great danger in losing sight of direct discipleship and becoming more of a program driven church… as we may fall victim to have a “form of godliness” and miss out a real opportunity to find Jesus. This also runs the risk of the error of the Pharisee who would keep perfect doctrine himself, yet give those under him a less stricter doctrine, which led Jesus to say, “ you make others twice as fit for hell as you are yourself.” (Matt 23)
So the question is this:
3. Why are modern churches content in programs over the Holy Spirit?
I will have more questions later… I am sure this is enough to chew on for a while.
Blessings
iggy
Technorati tags:
"Carlos Shelton", be a blessing, Beyond emerging church, Beyond emerging thought, Beyond propositional truth, Blessings, Christianity, Ekklesia, Emerging church, Follower of Christ, Generous Orthodoxy , iggy, iggynation, Imperial , In Christ, Missional, Modernity, Post-modernity, Postmodern, Redeemed, Religious spirit, Theology, Thoughts , Truth, Truth Abides, Values, Walk in the Spirit, Word of Mouth Ministries
Friday, July 28, 2006
The last comment on Steve Camp
The last comment on Steve Camp
Sadly I was sucked into the false assumption Steve Camp really was trying to have a sincere conversation… it turns out he was not.
In our exchange I decided I did not want to subject myself to his abuse any longer… with that I withdrew myself from his blog. I did give him at least 2 times to prove to me he could be genuine yet as you can read below straight off his blog he continued his veiled hate language.
I will though answer his questions here….
http://www.blogger.com/profile/10279510 said...
Iggy
A few quick thoughts for you to humbly consider: 1. Are you going to answer the question about McLaren and church discipline? And if no, why not?
Iggy: I add your previous question just for clarity…
“Let me ask you one question that not one of you Ecers have ever addressed: Why haven't you and others (Driscoll and Kimball too) called for church discipline against McLaren for his aberrant and heretical beliefs?”
Iggy: This is a very open ended question… and phrased like, “Are you still beating your wife?” but I will address my view on McLaren.
Brian McLaren is Brian and I am not… He has his views which some if you really understand what he is saying are very valid and need addressing from people like you who insist on name calling and finger pointing instead of addressing what he brings up.
Brian is like a school professor who engages his student to think. I have no problem thinking and even being challenged as I have gone into the issues he addresses and found that God was big enough for my questions, and my faith strong enough to grow even more in Christ even when I did not like or get the answer I was expecting. Mostly I have found by going through and processing my faith, much like Brian, I am more sure of my beliefs and have lost much of the none essential baggage.
Is Brian a heretic? Not to me, I think he has some challenging views and what many do is not understand that he is standing on a higher value of purity, especially on human sexuality… he believes we cannot separate homosexuality from the whole of human sexuality… we must deal with all the issues… like teen pregnancy, unwed parents, hetero fornicators… even a superficial look at his books one will find this out. He is for, that we go deeper into not allowing some sin to be ok and winked at, while other sin (homosexuality) is the ONE we harp on. It is way out of balance and we are alienating and losing many to hell because we are content in just calling them sinners.
I choose to live by the what Paul said, “15. It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” (Philippians 1)
I also see that scripture teaches not to judge for that is God territory… you see I believe the words of Jesus are true…yet, I will bet I only get a theological argument on the justification of judging others…
Matthew 7: 1. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4. How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5. You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6. "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
7. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8.For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9. "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10. Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
11. If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
12. So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Also, consider Romans 14: 4. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
2. What I have said to you is not abuse, but dialogue. I thought you EC guys prided yourself on being able to engage anyone in a conversation of faith?
Iggy: It is abusive dialog… the case in point is in question number 4… “Glad to see that you don't believe all that you say either.” You seem to not be able to comment with out a cutting remark or putdown… that is abuse Steve… plain and simple.
3. It's not about winning; it's about the truth of God being honored.
Iggy: I agree. That was sarcasm on my part… out of frustration that you just don’t get it… We EC are looking to all we can to honor God… you see that’s why we left the modern church, which is on display on you blog and here in your questions… do not bring God honor, but shame as it show a lack of regard for reconciliation and only wants to argue and be abusive, be divisive and judge and condemn… we see a much higher standard than doing those things to bring glory to God, and I personally will not lower my standards to those things if I can help it, which is why I am addressing you here on my blog and not on yours. For that is the attitude you are coming across with. I win, you lose. I’m right, you’re wrong… which is all in your wordings… so to you in all honesty it is all about winning. To me it is about growing in Christ…
4. You have said three times in a row that "this is my last response..." Glad to see that you don't believe all that you say either.
Iggy: It only shows how welcome and loved I felt… that 3rd time … was a 3rd chance… remember Jesus and Peter?
Grace and peace,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14
Iggy: I am not sure of your definition of Grace or peace… but I am not sure I want yours… (yes that was as cutting as you comments, yet that is the why the warning against judging as you will be judge back the same way… that is the principle played out in case you miss it).
Col 1: 9. For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. 10. And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11. being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully 12. giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Yet, that would be my prayer for you also… as I do not think you realize what you are defending in defending the modern church… I would challenge you to study out what modernism really is before defending it so vehemently… you might be surprised as to what heretical things have cropped up into the church through it.
Blessings,
iggy
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Sadly I was sucked into the false assumption Steve Camp really was trying to have a sincere conversation… it turns out he was not.
In our exchange I decided I did not want to subject myself to his abuse any longer… with that I withdrew myself from his blog. I did give him at least 2 times to prove to me he could be genuine yet as you can read below straight off his blog he continued his veiled hate language.
I will though answer his questions here….
http://www.blogger.com/profile/10279510 said...
Iggy
A few quick thoughts for you to humbly consider: 1. Are you going to answer the question about McLaren and church discipline? And if no, why not?
Iggy: I add your previous question just for clarity…
“Let me ask you one question that not one of you Ecers have ever addressed: Why haven't you and others (Driscoll and Kimball too) called for church discipline against McLaren for his aberrant and heretical beliefs?”
Iggy: This is a very open ended question… and phrased like, “Are you still beating your wife?” but I will address my view on McLaren.
Brian McLaren is Brian and I am not… He has his views which some if you really understand what he is saying are very valid and need addressing from people like you who insist on name calling and finger pointing instead of addressing what he brings up.
Brian is like a school professor who engages his student to think. I have no problem thinking and even being challenged as I have gone into the issues he addresses and found that God was big enough for my questions, and my faith strong enough to grow even more in Christ even when I did not like or get the answer I was expecting. Mostly I have found by going through and processing my faith, much like Brian, I am more sure of my beliefs and have lost much of the none essential baggage.
Is Brian a heretic? Not to me, I think he has some challenging views and what many do is not understand that he is standing on a higher value of purity, especially on human sexuality… he believes we cannot separate homosexuality from the whole of human sexuality… we must deal with all the issues… like teen pregnancy, unwed parents, hetero fornicators… even a superficial look at his books one will find this out. He is for, that we go deeper into not allowing some sin to be ok and winked at, while other sin (homosexuality) is the ONE we harp on. It is way out of balance and we are alienating and losing many to hell because we are content in just calling them sinners.
I choose to live by the what Paul said, “15. It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.” (Philippians 1)
I also see that scripture teaches not to judge for that is God territory… you see I believe the words of Jesus are true…yet, I will bet I only get a theological argument on the justification of judging others…
Matthew 7: 1. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4. How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5. You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6. "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
7. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8.For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9. "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10. Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
11. If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
12. So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Also, consider Romans 14: 4. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
2. What I have said to you is not abuse, but dialogue. I thought you EC guys prided yourself on being able to engage anyone in a conversation of faith?
Iggy: It is abusive dialog… the case in point is in question number 4… “Glad to see that you don't believe all that you say either.” You seem to not be able to comment with out a cutting remark or putdown… that is abuse Steve… plain and simple.
3. It's not about winning; it's about the truth of God being honored.
Iggy: I agree. That was sarcasm on my part… out of frustration that you just don’t get it… We EC are looking to all we can to honor God… you see that’s why we left the modern church, which is on display on you blog and here in your questions… do not bring God honor, but shame as it show a lack of regard for reconciliation and only wants to argue and be abusive, be divisive and judge and condemn… we see a much higher standard than doing those things to bring glory to God, and I personally will not lower my standards to those things if I can help it, which is why I am addressing you here on my blog and not on yours. For that is the attitude you are coming across with. I win, you lose. I’m right, you’re wrong… which is all in your wordings… so to you in all honesty it is all about winning. To me it is about growing in Christ…
4. You have said three times in a row that "this is my last response..." Glad to see that you don't believe all that you say either.
Iggy: It only shows how welcome and loved I felt… that 3rd time … was a 3rd chance… remember Jesus and Peter?
Grace and peace,
Steve
Col. 1:9-14
Iggy: I am not sure of your definition of Grace or peace… but I am not sure I want yours… (yes that was as cutting as you comments, yet that is the why the warning against judging as you will be judge back the same way… that is the principle played out in case you miss it).
Col 1: 9. For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. 10. And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11. being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully 12. giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Yet, that would be my prayer for you also… as I do not think you realize what you are defending in defending the modern church… I would challenge you to study out what modernism really is before defending it so vehemently… you might be surprised as to what heretical things have cropped up into the church through it.
Blessings,
iggy
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Thursday, July 27, 2006
Point by point with Steve Camp
Source:
1. The Scriptures are objective truth (Psalm 19:7-11; Psalm 119:160; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).
Iggy: Yes it is Objective…. Yet it is LIVING… which means it is both subjective and objective. Because it is a very personal relationship… to make it just objective does not allow for a “relational” faith… it makes God and Jesus impersonal. Jesus pointed this out to the Pharisees in (Luke 24, John 5:39). Don’t forget that the Holy Spirit interacts with us and scripture.
2. Scripture is eternal and does not change with the times (Psalm 119:89; Heb. 4:12-16; Jude 3).
Iggy: I think most EC people would agree, yet some are liberal… some are searching…And in that it seems that the modern church would rather silence their voice and invalidate their searching because they do not see it from the modern perspective… thus the EC is here reaching out to the post modern mindset that the moderns don’t understand. I don’t see how Heb. 4:12-16 applies as it does not say anything about being eternal… Nor you Jude reference… It's not the scripture that changes but our understanding of it… as with when Jesus came and opened the eyes of the disciples. What happened is that Scripture did change… When Jesus, being God, became flesh, the scripture now became flesh and walk amongst us. It moved from being a book of “propositional truths strung together objectively” to being the reality that is Christ Jesus. It is no long just shadows of truth but reality that is in Christ Jesus.
3. It is a more sure word than anyones vain imaginings, personal experiences, or cultural moorings (2 Peter 1:16-21).
Iggy: Again, most EC believe the scripture as their foundation and where we get our values from. The issue though is we see that vain philosophies have entered the modern church and we want to have a purer faith than that of one based on mans reasoning.
4. One question any serious student of God' Word must ask when studying Scripture is: what does it mean in and of itself? IOW, what does it mean if I were dead? Our personal baggage, personal experiences, personal cultural contextualizations, etc. mean absolutely nothing when interpreting God's Word (exegesis) and learning what IT is actually saying. The application can be varied--but not the interpretation.
Iggy: this is a very subjective question concerning you view of scripture being “objective”. But I get your point and I think the real issue of a serious student of God’s Word, (which the phrase never is used about scripture in the Bible, but solely about Jesus), is that “what does it mean that I am now alive in Christ?” The death issue for a Christian is dealt with already. Now, I would agree that a non believer must and should consider this question. Again, I agree with the last part and that is one of the big things we discuss and seek to understand more clearly. We see much that is taught today is tainted by, conservative political agendas, Americanization of the gospel (which is what much of the modern church is based on). We in the EC are seeking to transcend the “personal baggage, personal experiences, personal cultural contextualizations” and get to what God intended and Jesus taught.
5. The lens of postmodernism offers only an infantile approach to truth; and does not alter the meaning of Scripture for our time one iota.
Iggy: this is a major bad assumption. I have found that it holds truth to a higher standard as it is now focusing on Jesus being Truth… I do not see that as infantile, but foundational. In fact I have gone round and round with many who seem to think what Jesus said in John 5 concerning scripture and Himself is not true, yet myself and many others believe Truth is the person of Jesus… Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. It is no longer just a bunch of "propositional truths" strung together... but the very Person... It is raising the "if" in the propositional truth, true authority as Jesus Himself would be the source of all Truth and is Truth itself.
6. The EC is arminian (anthropocentric) and it is troubling.
Wow, this is so far off; most I have come in contacted with are Calvinist! Brian McLaren states he is (though greatly modified) In fact I do not see either Armenian or Calvinism as getting it. If you are a Calvinist, you are most probably not a pure one… as I bet you would never baptize an infant for salvation as Calvin taught. So, this is a very false statement. Sorry Steve. I was trying to do a church plant and as I was seeking out backing, I was recommended an organization that is very EC friendly, and was told since I am not a Calvinist they would not back me… You need more facts sir. (I am not an Armenian also as I hold to eternal security, If I personally go back and read the early Father, I stop at Irenaeus as I see that at the time of Constantine things started moving into to justifying the actions of Christians over defending the faith other than that I am strictly Bible for my teachings...).
7. Doctrine/theology in EC nomenclature is liquid, fluid, and adaptable; "resurging to meet the needs of a new generation."
Iggy: Isn’t that what you did with your music? That is how I got saved! If it wasn’t for Larry Norman, stepping out of the rigid structure and allowing for flexibility God would not have used him to meet my needs as I was coming to faith. There must be a liquid flowing and adaptability in ones faith so that no stagnation occurs. The Body of Christ is a living organism, if we are attached to the Head, then it will grow and live and have it’s being. The same is true on a personal level. The Pharisees believed that their view was the only view… and totally missed the Messiah as He rode into Jerusalem. They missed that God’s ways are not our ways. Isn't it our call to meet needs of our generation? To feed the poor, to love the unwanted? To tell them about Jesus in both words and action? To love them as Christ loved them?
8. The primary purpose of the local church is not about finding a new technique, understanding postmodernism so we can attract a new generation to its doors, it's about the glory of God and His worship alone.
Iggy: Again, I think you are confusing us with the seeker/purpose driven movement. I think it is vital we have some understanding of culture… If you really believe this, then why have Jim Carey on your site… and Rush, and on and on… you are using techniques in your own way to engage culture in hope that it will lead them to Christ. I see more people living in the glory of God… and their lives have become worship… in those of the EC. The purpose of the church is to be the Body of Christ and allow Him to Live His life in and through us. It is about going to the world and preaching the Gospel... to be missional. We have turned the Body of Chirst into a lifeless institution. It is a living organism. We want people to come to church, but Jesus said come to Him.
9. No one is attacking the EC here, but evaluating it. Anonymous suggested I haven't done my homework... Anyone who can't reveal their true identity which is a violation of the rules of this blog doesn't deserve an answer, but a deletion of their post. Sorry mate; when you don't post anonymously in the future, fill out a blog profile and can engage in more than just hyperbole, then we will take you seriously. I don't allow drive-by posting.
Iggy: though I am not sure that this is more directed at someone who had not followed the “rules” of your site, I think I agree with anonymous if this is you understanding of EC. You see, even in the very statement, you are setting yourself as the standard... your personal doctrines. In that I set Jesus as the standard and walk inHis grace and mercy allowing He that gave His Life for me, then gave His Life to me, to Live His Life through me... for as scripture teaches we are "saved by His Life". (Romans 5)
Blessings,
iggy
p.s Steve I believe in 1997 you wrote something that renounced your former musical career:
You said:
“Early in my own musical journey I wrote songs that neither represented good music or precise theology. My motives were vitiated; my actions were not godly; and my lips were unclean. The thirst for prominence and position made my heart prideful, judgmental and callused.”
Be careful you are not still just accepting the "adda boys" of those around you... I see it very clearly in your ministry now... I used to see you with very strong anointing on your music and ministry... even if in your own heart might have not seen it "pure". To many of us you were the next to take the mantel of Keith Green... yet, nothing happened... do not let "shame" be your base, but let the Love of Jesus and the firmness of His salvation and the trueness of His Faithfulness to us by what guides your heart.
Tuesday, July 25, 2006
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition" PT 2
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?" PT2
I was typing a bit fast on pt 1 of this series so I originally had this as point 3. But with a little reflection I see it as better being part 2. (All Scripture is out of the NIV)
2. Often people confuse being obedient with obeying the Ten Commandments, or doctrines or even traditions.
There are so many bad teachings concerning that one must obey the Ten Commandments, doctrines or traditions. I have written much on this topic so I hope that I will either add something or at least not have such a large post… wish me luck!
Let’s start in Galatians. Here we find that there is a purpose for the Law. It here that we hear the admonishment the Paul writes:
Galatians 1: 6. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7. which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10. Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. 11. I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (NIV)
First thing I want to point out is that Paul is saying that if someone is out to pervert the Gospel and preaching one that is different from the one that Paul preaches… he is to be accursed. First off I know someone is going to go off and say, “See iggy. All your lovey, dovey, mushy loves stuff is so weak and see that there is a time to “judge” another and point out that they are teaching false doctrine.” To that I will say, ‘I never said there was a time not to discern that a teaching is not sound, even more if you read I live by this as I do stand up against those who teach error in the name of Jesus and condemn others because they do not “believe” as they do’… the issue may be two fold
Of course there could be many other points, these to me have been the most common. Paul went on later to explain what the Gospel we are to preach is.
Galatians 3: 8. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
9. So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12. The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14. He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
I wont go into this right now, but notice that it says the “scripture foresaw”? This is connected to the teaching of “foreknowledge” which I will unfold it with predestination later. Just pointing out that foreknowledge is about what is revealed in scripture and not some Calvinistic predestinational teaching. In this though on the topic of obedience and the Ten Commandments, notice that before the Law was given, just as Abraham was justified by faith the Gentiles would be also. And that the gospel was announced to Abraham… that “All nations will be blessed through you.”, so one of the components of the Gospel is that the Jews will be a blessing to the Gentiles.
Galatians 3: 19. What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21. Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27. for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
What is the purpose of the Ten Commandments and the legal and ceremonial laws of Moses? To add transgression! Meaning, it is to point out we are sinners. Paul also states this.
Romans 3: 19. Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24. and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (NIV)
Notice that we now have righteousness from God APART FROM THE LAW?
This is even the testimony that the Law and Prophets reveal… it is now the righteousness from God that comes through faith in Jesus that is now our righteousness. In this Jesus IS our righteousness… we have none of our own… that is why Paul stated just before this:
9. What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
13. "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14. "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16. ruin and misery mark their ways,
17. and the way of peace they do not know." 18. "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19. Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
We have no back up plan… it is either, stand on your own righteousness… or stand on Jesus and His righteousness. We can not add to the righteousness of Christ if one tries they only take away from the finished works of Christ. We are no better than those that professed Jesus, then at the time of the temple sacrifice, ran and got a bull, and offered it for their sin… this is what the writer of Hebrews was talking about.
Hebrews 6: 1. Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2.instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3. And God permitting, we will do so. 4. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5.who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6. if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (NIV)
Here is an example of this.
I am going to a large city I have never been to before. In that I can see the lights and a lot of activity as I get closer. I can smell the restaurants and the yet, even before I get to the city, I see a restaurant that has some of the food from the city. I stop and taste the food and find it delicious. Someone tells me of a great city relic outside the restaurant and I look at it and a touch it as it is so inspirational… I do desire more, in some ways I have seen, tasted and even felt all this from the city… yet I have not even crossed the city line and really entered it.
In that I turn around and go back as I think I have been to the large city… and yet, I have never been… so I can’t truthfully say I have been there, though I can deceive myself into thinking I have.
One can see, hear and taste the wonders of God, they can come to the cross and sit at the feet of the crucified Christ and get all emotional, but if they have never repented, nor received the Life of Christ… they are still dead in their sins… they can not repent again, as they have not repented n the first place.
Many would do this as they profess Jesus and still felt they needed to get their sins forgiven by giving a bull for a sacrificed… They were not depending on Jesus for their sin… they had not received the Life… and where still dead in their sins… as they did not walk in faith that Jesus had done it all for them on the cross.
So, all this talk about the Gospel… what was the Gospel Paul taught?
Colossians 1: 13. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14.in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20.and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—23.if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (NIV)
Now, with that, this is the Gospel… broken down and nothing added to it. This is where and from “sound doctrine” must come. First as Paul states from a revelation, (Gal 1:12, Gal 2:2) from Jesus, then proclaimed to us, for us to bless others with and proclaim to others… interestingly… it is to “every creature” so it is even bigger as it includes all created beings…
This seem so much simpler than many of the “we believe” I have read in many churches.
Now, that we have tackled the issue of how a believer should use the Law properly… and some added stuff to boot, I will tackle the misunderstanding of what and how obedience works in a believer’s life. Sometime soon!
Blessings,
iggy
I was typing a bit fast on pt 1 of this series so I originally had this as point 3. But with a little reflection I see it as better being part 2. (All Scripture is out of the NIV)
2. Often people confuse being obedient with obeying the Ten Commandments, or doctrines or even traditions.
There are so many bad teachings concerning that one must obey the Ten Commandments, doctrines or traditions. I have written much on this topic so I hope that I will either add something or at least not have such a large post… wish me luck!
Let’s start in Galatians. Here we find that there is a purpose for the Law. It here that we hear the admonishment the Paul writes:
Galatians 1: 6. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7. which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10. Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. 11. I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (NIV)
First thing I want to point out is that Paul is saying that if someone is out to pervert the Gospel and preaching one that is different from the one that Paul preaches… he is to be accursed. First off I know someone is going to go off and say, “See iggy. All your lovey, dovey, mushy loves stuff is so weak and see that there is a time to “judge” another and point out that they are teaching false doctrine.” To that I will say, ‘I never said there was a time not to discern that a teaching is not sound, even more if you read I live by this as I do stand up against those who teach error in the name of Jesus and condemn others because they do not “believe” as they do’… the issue may be two fold
- They are preaching a for of religion that is based on their performance and that if someone is not deemed as performing to their standard, then I will stand against that as WE are not the standard, Jesus is and none of us can stand up to that standard.
- Many teach false doctrine that is not “sound” as they are passing down traditions and what someone else taught. This can be generational and denominational… in that many have no idea that their view may not be correct… and in all sincerity they attack out of their own ignorance as they have never tackled the teachings or issues themselves. Often this is most prevalent for those who grew up in the church… many who come to Christ later and have never grew up in the church can’t understand why so often these seem to “know” the right answers, yet do not “live” out the teaching they profess.
Of course there could be many other points, these to me have been the most common. Paul went on later to explain what the Gospel we are to preach is.
Galatians 3: 8. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
9. So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11. Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12. The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14. He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
I wont go into this right now, but notice that it says the “scripture foresaw”? This is connected to the teaching of “foreknowledge” which I will unfold it with predestination later. Just pointing out that foreknowledge is about what is revealed in scripture and not some Calvinistic predestinational teaching. In this though on the topic of obedience and the Ten Commandments, notice that before the Law was given, just as Abraham was justified by faith the Gentiles would be also. And that the gospel was announced to Abraham… that “All nations will be blessed through you.”, so one of the components of the Gospel is that the Jews will be a blessing to the Gentiles.
Galatians 3: 19. What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21. Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27. for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
What is the purpose of the Ten Commandments and the legal and ceremonial laws of Moses? To add transgression! Meaning, it is to point out we are sinners. Paul also states this.
Romans 3: 19. Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24. and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (NIV)
Notice that we now have righteousness from God APART FROM THE LAW?
This is even the testimony that the Law and Prophets reveal… it is now the righteousness from God that comes through faith in Jesus that is now our righteousness. In this Jesus IS our righteousness… we have none of our own… that is why Paul stated just before this:
9. What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
13. "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14. "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16. ruin and misery mark their ways,
17. and the way of peace they do not know." 18. "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19. Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
We have no back up plan… it is either, stand on your own righteousness… or stand on Jesus and His righteousness. We can not add to the righteousness of Christ if one tries they only take away from the finished works of Christ. We are no better than those that professed Jesus, then at the time of the temple sacrifice, ran and got a bull, and offered it for their sin… this is what the writer of Hebrews was talking about.
Hebrews 6: 1. Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2.instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3. And God permitting, we will do so. 4. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5.who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6. if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (NIV)
Here is an example of this.
I am going to a large city I have never been to before. In that I can see the lights and a lot of activity as I get closer. I can smell the restaurants and the yet, even before I get to the city, I see a restaurant that has some of the food from the city. I stop and taste the food and find it delicious. Someone tells me of a great city relic outside the restaurant and I look at it and a touch it as it is so inspirational… I do desire more, in some ways I have seen, tasted and even felt all this from the city… yet I have not even crossed the city line and really entered it.
In that I turn around and go back as I think I have been to the large city… and yet, I have never been… so I can’t truthfully say I have been there, though I can deceive myself into thinking I have.
One can see, hear and taste the wonders of God, they can come to the cross and sit at the feet of the crucified Christ and get all emotional, but if they have never repented, nor received the Life of Christ… they are still dead in their sins… they can not repent again, as they have not repented n the first place.
Many would do this as they profess Jesus and still felt they needed to get their sins forgiven by giving a bull for a sacrificed… They were not depending on Jesus for their sin… they had not received the Life… and where still dead in their sins… as they did not walk in faith that Jesus had done it all for them on the cross.
So, all this talk about the Gospel… what was the Gospel Paul taught?
Colossians 1: 13. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14.in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20.and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—23.if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. (NIV)
Now, with that, this is the Gospel… broken down and nothing added to it. This is where and from “sound doctrine” must come. First as Paul states from a revelation, (Gal 1:12, Gal 2:2) from Jesus, then proclaimed to us, for us to bless others with and proclaim to others… interestingly… it is to “every creature” so it is even bigger as it includes all created beings…
This seem so much simpler than many of the “we believe” I have read in many churches.
Now, that we have tackled the issue of how a believer should use the Law properly… and some added stuff to boot, I will tackle the misunderstanding of what and how obedience works in a believer’s life. Sometime soon!
Blessings,
iggy
I admit I have been reading the nonesense of those who have attacked me in the past.
I admit I have been reading some of the nonsense of those who have attacked me… and have really had a good laugh… (Sadly really) at how far someone will go to “be right” and make others “wrong”.
Phil Perkins has been writing on being “anti-missional”. I tried to point out that he is really speaking against the great commission and is not relaying that it is not that emergent’s deny “hell” (some maybe, but not all of us, and even those that supposedly do, may not entirely) but that is the point of “missing the point”.
Phil is at his best… I think at writing satire!
He goes off on some weird tangent of Ronald Reagan versus Jimmy Carter to make a point… which I get but misses the big point, then goes on
“So then, this Christian will stick to biblical vocabulary.”
Then throw out these words also as they are not in the scripture:
Trinity
Missionaries
Sola gratia
Sola fide
Solus Christus
Sola scriptura
Soli Deo gloria
(I am being a bit facetious here as none of these ‘words’ are in the bible… as missional is not also yet to follow through on the logical conclusion of the statement as stated… is silly.)
With that, I say call back all your churches missionaries Phil, cuz they are being missional by going to another country and “missional” is not in “your biblical vocabulary” so I think to follow you logically… neither is to be a “missionary”!
This is another classick case of missing the point! LOL!
The point is… Jesus gave us the Great Commission… get that? Let me spell something out fer ya!
comMISSION.. Do you see it?
Jesus told us to go… and this is Bible right here… Matt 28: 18. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (NIV)
Those where not my words but Jesus’!
God placed all authority on Jesus… though we as Christians do not have to fear His authority as we are walking in His Love… which is the higher Law. We are now through Christ able to walk in relationship with Jesus…
The fact is Jesus sent us to make disciples… not converts. A convert is someone who has just accepted and believes… but a disciple has taken it into their life to learn and build on a relationship with Jesus. Really to make a convert can just amount to casting pearl before swine.
I see in Phil’s post that he is falling into the very thing he is accusing emerging thought to be doing. “Window of vulnerability” was the concept that Reagan used… and effectively. Yet, to miss that the idea of being missional is doing the Great Commission… then to say one is anti – missional based on their assumption that the great commission is only about getting people out of hell (which is a great disservice to what Brian McLaren is really saying), It is setting “getting out of hell” highest if not alone on what the Great Commission is about… and that is making disciples and spreading the Kingdom of God… which included in that is that people “get out of going to hell.” It is a disservice to what Jesus called us to do and not very biblical at all.
Phil is using hell in his arguments the same way Reagan did, yet for the opposite effect. It is to divide, instead of create stability, or rather reconciliation. In many ways this is just a straw man which Phil has again set up to knock down… to make him appear “right”… but really in missing the point… becomes a great parody of the thing he is writing about.
Blessings,
iggy
Phil Perkins has been writing on being “anti-missional”. I tried to point out that he is really speaking against the great commission and is not relaying that it is not that emergent’s deny “hell” (some maybe, but not all of us, and even those that supposedly do, may not entirely) but that is the point of “missing the point”.
Phil is at his best… I think at writing satire!
He goes off on some weird tangent of Ronald Reagan versus Jimmy Carter to make a point… which I get but misses the big point, then goes on
“So then, this Christian will stick to biblical vocabulary.”
Then throw out these words also as they are not in the scripture:
Trinity
Missionaries
Sola gratia
Sola fide
Solus Christus
Sola scriptura
Soli Deo gloria
(I am being a bit facetious here as none of these ‘words’ are in the bible… as missional is not also yet to follow through on the logical conclusion of the statement as stated… is silly.)
With that, I say call back all your churches missionaries Phil, cuz they are being missional by going to another country and “missional” is not in “your biblical vocabulary” so I think to follow you logically… neither is to be a “missionary”!
This is another classick case of missing the point! LOL!
The point is… Jesus gave us the Great Commission… get that? Let me spell something out fer ya!
comMISSION.. Do you see it?
Jesus told us to go… and this is Bible right here… Matt 28: 18. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (NIV)
Those where not my words but Jesus’!
God placed all authority on Jesus… though we as Christians do not have to fear His authority as we are walking in His Love… which is the higher Law. We are now through Christ able to walk in relationship with Jesus…
The fact is Jesus sent us to make disciples… not converts. A convert is someone who has just accepted and believes… but a disciple has taken it into their life to learn and build on a relationship with Jesus. Really to make a convert can just amount to casting pearl before swine.
I see in Phil’s post that he is falling into the very thing he is accusing emerging thought to be doing. “Window of vulnerability” was the concept that Reagan used… and effectively. Yet, to miss that the idea of being missional is doing the Great Commission… then to say one is anti – missional based on their assumption that the great commission is only about getting people out of hell (which is a great disservice to what Brian McLaren is really saying), It is setting “getting out of hell” highest if not alone on what the Great Commission is about… and that is making disciples and spreading the Kingdom of God… which included in that is that people “get out of going to hell.” It is a disservice to what Jesus called us to do and not very biblical at all.
Phil is using hell in his arguments the same way Reagan did, yet for the opposite effect. It is to divide, instead of create stability, or rather reconciliation. In many ways this is just a straw man which Phil has again set up to knock down… to make him appear “right”… but really in missing the point… becomes a great parody of the thing he is writing about.
Blessings,
iggy
Sunday, July 23, 2006
Steve Camp and missing the point.
Here are some thoughts I shared with Andrew aka TallSkinnyKiWi as he was pointing a blog by Steve Camp.
Wow, I was just listening to some Steve Camp and telling my wife how he used to stand against commercialization of Christian music... he believed as Keith Green did that it was free from God, and then to be given freely to all as it was not theirs to begin with and if someone could pay... great, if not it was a ministry.... I was contemplating uploading some of his songs that meant something to me “back in the day” to my online radio station... as I have considered that view very cool and a bit "postmodern" and as I was retelling it to my wife, I was wondering a bit about him and what he has been doing….
So this is very disappointing... and another case of “missing the point”.
I wanted to point out that many of the links of teachers are held high in “emerging” circles… (the teaching one, not Rush Limpbo), and also that he is just quoting small out of context quotes… as they are being ripped out of the bigger conversation and place in a “I’m right, your wrong” format. I just don’t care to go there. They are looking for just some point to say ALL is wrong… but miss that there are major issues in their own systematic religiosity. They miss that man’s reasoning is not the pinnacle of our faith… but Jesus is!
His assumption we ALL think alike and ALL hold to the same view and doctrines… even that we ALL “have trouble with absolutes” … missed the fine point that we are not against it, just not sure that the modern assertion is biblical … which is strange to say since we ALL hold the bible so low in our beliefs and values… (Tongue was in cheek as I said that).
I see that they miss that Jesus Himself said that we cannot understand the bible without be indwelled by the holy Spirit, so to assert that one can reason and just read the bible and get saved... without Jesus revealing… is way off track. (I have had two people argue over this on my blog as they attempted to prove that it is propositional truth that we must old told to be saved and I kept pointing out that it is Jesus who saves us John 5:39-40).
Right now I have some guy in the same town who is writing why he is “anti-missional” and I pointed out that Jesus told us to go on the Great Commission… and that was to spread the Kingdom of God… which includes but is not just about getting out of hell… He really has just created a straw man to knock down as he is like Steve camp, missing the point.
As far as deconstructing... that may be the "scholarly" definition, yet, I do not see that as the practical working out of emerging deconstructionism. I see rather the freedom to question and test and see if it is a “man made tradition” or “sound doctrine” and that we have in fact started to transcend the immature arguments that cause divisiveness and focus on the essentials and core of the teachings of Christ (all found in the bible). I have never been in a group of people who can engage in a conversation, with respect and totally disagree and still see the person is more important than “being right”. That does not diminish “right from wrong” but I see it raises it to be more valuable in that it allows the Holy Spirit room to grow people over traditions and man made doctrines.
Forgive me for rambling a bit there Andrew.
Blessings,iggy
Technorati tags:
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Wow, I was just listening to some Steve Camp and telling my wife how he used to stand against commercialization of Christian music... he believed as Keith Green did that it was free from God, and then to be given freely to all as it was not theirs to begin with and if someone could pay... great, if not it was a ministry.... I was contemplating uploading some of his songs that meant something to me “back in the day” to my online radio station... as I have considered that view very cool and a bit "postmodern" and as I was retelling it to my wife, I was wondering a bit about him and what he has been doing….
So this is very disappointing... and another case of “missing the point”.
I wanted to point out that many of the links of teachers are held high in “emerging” circles… (the teaching one, not Rush Limpbo), and also that he is just quoting small out of context quotes… as they are being ripped out of the bigger conversation and place in a “I’m right, your wrong” format. I just don’t care to go there. They are looking for just some point to say ALL is wrong… but miss that there are major issues in their own systematic religiosity. They miss that man’s reasoning is not the pinnacle of our faith… but Jesus is!
His assumption we ALL think alike and ALL hold to the same view and doctrines… even that we ALL “have trouble with absolutes” … missed the fine point that we are not against it, just not sure that the modern assertion is biblical … which is strange to say since we ALL hold the bible so low in our beliefs and values… (Tongue was in cheek as I said that).
I see that they miss that Jesus Himself said that we cannot understand the bible without be indwelled by the holy Spirit, so to assert that one can reason and just read the bible and get saved... without Jesus revealing… is way off track. (I have had two people argue over this on my blog as they attempted to prove that it is propositional truth that we must old told to be saved and I kept pointing out that it is Jesus who saves us John 5:39-40).
Right now I have some guy in the same town who is writing why he is “anti-missional” and I pointed out that Jesus told us to go on the Great Commission… and that was to spread the Kingdom of God… which includes but is not just about getting out of hell… He really has just created a straw man to knock down as he is like Steve camp, missing the point.
As far as deconstructing... that may be the "scholarly" definition, yet, I do not see that as the practical working out of emerging deconstructionism. I see rather the freedom to question and test and see if it is a “man made tradition” or “sound doctrine” and that we have in fact started to transcend the immature arguments that cause divisiveness and focus on the essentials and core of the teachings of Christ (all found in the bible). I have never been in a group of people who can engage in a conversation, with respect and totally disagree and still see the person is more important than “being right”. That does not diminish “right from wrong” but I see it raises it to be more valuable in that it allows the Holy Spirit room to grow people over traditions and man made doctrines.
Forgive me for rambling a bit there Andrew.
Blessings,iggy
Technorati tags:
"Carlos Shelton", Accuser of the brethren, Articles, beware, Beyond emerging church, Beyond emerging thought, Beyond propositional truth, Bible, Billings Mt, Blessings, Christian, Christianity, Church, Conversation, Critics, Doctrine, Doctrines of men, Emerging church, Emerging conversation, Emerging thought, Fellowship, Follower of Christ, Go , God, Grace, Holy Spirit, iggy, iggynation, In Christ, Liar, Living , Living sacrifice, Missing the point, Modernity, One, Philosophy-religion , Post-modernity, Postmodern, Religious spirit, SBC, Steve Camp, The Word, Theology, Thoughts , Truth, Truth Abides, Values, Walk in the Spirit, Word of Mouth Ministries
Friday, July 21, 2006
Wednesday, July 19, 2006
Like I didn't already know... but look at #2!!!!!
Like I already didn't know this... But I am surprised by # 2. I bet you are also! This could be why some of you don't get me... LOL! Blessings, iggy | You scored as Emergent/Postmodern. You are Emergent/Postmodern in your theology. You feel alienated from older forms of church, you don't think they connect to modern culture very well. No one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. Evangelism should take place in relationships rather than through crusades and altar-calls. People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this.
What's your theological worldview? created with QuizFarm.com |
Tuesday, July 18, 2006
Just a little bit of Montana for ya!
These are all on by West Yellowstone... Outside of Yellowstone Park. It is the Gallatin river and TES (my wife) took the pics.
Blessings,
iggy
emerging thought in Montana
emerging thought in Montana
I just thought I would let you know, YES you are at the wordofmouthministries blog…And yes I am experimenting with the new name. I may go back… I just wanted something that seemed to fit better… I wanted to get to the point this is a Blog about “emerging thought” (as I refer to the Postmodern/Emergent/emergent/-movement/non movement).
The address will remain the same as it is too hard to change… or impossible on Blogger.
Let me know what you think.
Blessings,
iggy
I just thought I would let you know, YES you are at the wordofmouthministries blog…And yes I am experimenting with the new name. I may go back… I just wanted something that seemed to fit better… I wanted to get to the point this is a Blog about “emerging thought” (as I refer to the Postmodern/Emergent/emergent/-movement/non movement).
The address will remain the same as it is too hard to change… or impossible on Blogger.
Let me know what you think.
Blessings,
iggy
Saturday, July 15, 2006
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?"
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Traditions are interesting things. Some are very good… some are fun… and some… just don’t make sense.
There is a story about a young woman who was cooking for friends. She was having roast beef and before she put it in the roasting pan, proceeded to cut the ends of the roast off. Here husband watched and asked why she did this. She replied, “Because my mother did this.”
Of course the husband seeing it a waste of good beef, asked, “Why did your mother do this?” and the young wife said, “I don’t know, but I bet she had a really good reason, like it helps with flavor or it cooks better somehow.”
Later she called her mother, and she finally got around to asking the big question.
“Mom, why do you cut the ends off the roasts before you cook them?”
Her mom laughed a bit and said, “Because my pan is too small.”
I see this as applicable in a couple of ways. First off much of what we are taught is caught. We watch and learn and literally catch things and learn how to do this. I have seen this in my daughter as she watches her big brother and has decided that walking is way cool! She is now trying to figure out how this upright walking thing works by watching her brother. LOL!
Also, sometimes things get passed down because that is how it was always done. It may be right… or even wrong… or just funny as in the story. Often when it is wrong it can lead to sad results and cause some very bad teachings being set out as truth… and after generation after generation, it gets set in the psyche if those who accept it as truth.
Traditions of man in relationship to our Christian faith has been victim of this for centuries and even now… more than ever I see many confused on some of the very basics of our faith.
One area is about “obeying God’s commands”. On one level there is no issue as that is what the scripture teaches. But, the issue is this:
I am not sure if I will be able to get to all these point in this one post. I do tend to get to the heart of the issue very quickly on this topic though.
Obedience is a funny word in scripture, and without a basic understanding of Grace and the finished works of Christ one will be hard pressed to understand it. I will not go into all of this as I have in many other posts gone into Grace and the finished works of Christ. Mostly I have gone into this in my posts on the exchanged life, which is basically this:
I received forgiveness at the Cross... But still was dead, I received the Life of Christ as a result of His Resurrection, and now live a life that is not my own. Jesus not only took away my sins… but gave me His eternal Life. It's now as I say, Jesus gave His Life for me, to give His Life to me, so He can Live His Life through me.
But what of this elusive obedience? The best scripture to explain this is in Romans 5:
11. Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13. for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21. so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
With this passage, “sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.”
Adam and Eve fell in sin in the Garden. So with that sin entered the world. The world is now held hostage and is waiting for release. With this sin, death came, and because every man sins… every man dies. Pretty simple so far?
Sin was in the world before God gave the Law… so people in that time where not held to the Law… as in the Ten Commandments which came later and for an entirely different purpose than many teach today. It was because of Adam a man, that all men are judged for he was the pattern or model of the “one to come”… meaning Jesus.
Then God added the Law to add to our transgressions Galatians (3:19) and that is and was it’s purpose. It is in a way to add insult to injury! Not in a bad way, but in a way to drive us to God for mercy and grace.
Now the Good News! Romans 5: 8… God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
10. For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
11. Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
God showed His Grace and Mercy to us by giving us His Son to die in our place… even more than that to take on the wrath on Himself in our place.
Many think they need to get cleaned up to come to God… yet, the truth is you can’t get clean enough… and beyond that, while you where still and enemies of God, God reconciled you by Jesus’ death on the Cross… but many just stop there… and this adds to their confusion as they equate forgiveness with salvation. There are two extremes in this.
Now if anyone has read any of Brian McLaren’s books you will see that he often gets caught in this conundrum. As he says, “each has their advantages and their disadvantages.” The issue I see is that by just stopping at the cross and equating forgiveness with salvation, one can only have these choices. That is why I preach the exchanged life and spend so much time on speaking of the Resurrection of Jesus and that being we have received His Life unto salvation! Romans 5: 10 pretty much wraps this up… “For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”
Being reconciled through the cross means that the door to heaven is open… but one still will die if one does not take care to the death issue… Romans 6: 23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It is not sins we need saved from, but our death… for God forgave our sins… really God took care of sins with the sacrificial system… but with Jesus it is now “once for all.” (Hebrews 7:27)
Notice again that the gift of God is not just forgiveness but also eternal life in Christ Jesus! Now once the sin and death issue is taken care of… we can move on to obedience…
But this post is long enough, so next time.
Blessings,
iggy
Traditions are interesting things. Some are very good… some are fun… and some… just don’t make sense.
There is a story about a young woman who was cooking for friends. She was having roast beef and before she put it in the roasting pan, proceeded to cut the ends of the roast off. Here husband watched and asked why she did this. She replied, “Because my mother did this.”
Of course the husband seeing it a waste of good beef, asked, “Why did your mother do this?” and the young wife said, “I don’t know, but I bet she had a really good reason, like it helps with flavor or it cooks better somehow.”
Later she called her mother, and she finally got around to asking the big question.
“Mom, why do you cut the ends off the roasts before you cook them?”
Her mom laughed a bit and said, “Because my pan is too small.”
I see this as applicable in a couple of ways. First off much of what we are taught is caught. We watch and learn and literally catch things and learn how to do this. I have seen this in my daughter as she watches her big brother and has decided that walking is way cool! She is now trying to figure out how this upright walking thing works by watching her brother. LOL!
Also, sometimes things get passed down because that is how it was always done. It may be right… or even wrong… or just funny as in the story. Often when it is wrong it can lead to sad results and cause some very bad teachings being set out as truth… and after generation after generation, it gets set in the psyche if those who accept it as truth.
Traditions of man in relationship to our Christian faith has been victim of this for centuries and even now… more than ever I see many confused on some of the very basics of our faith.
One area is about “obeying God’s commands”. On one level there is no issue as that is what the scripture teaches. But, the issue is this:
- Often people have a misunderstanding of obedience
- Often people confuse where and how obedience works in the life of a believer
- Often people confuse being obedient with obeying the Ten Commandments, or doctrines or even traditions.
I am not sure if I will be able to get to all these point in this one post. I do tend to get to the heart of the issue very quickly on this topic though.
- Often people have a misunderstanding of obedience
Obedience is a funny word in scripture, and without a basic understanding of Grace and the finished works of Christ one will be hard pressed to understand it. I will not go into all of this as I have in many other posts gone into Grace and the finished works of Christ. Mostly I have gone into this in my posts on the exchanged life, which is basically this:
I received forgiveness at the Cross... But still was dead, I received the Life of Christ as a result of His Resurrection, and now live a life that is not my own. Jesus not only took away my sins… but gave me His eternal Life. It's now as I say, Jesus gave His Life for me, to give His Life to me, so He can Live His Life through me.
But what of this elusive obedience? The best scripture to explain this is in Romans 5:
11. Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
12. Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13. for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15. But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16. Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
19. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21. so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
With this passage, “sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.”
Adam and Eve fell in sin in the Garden. So with that sin entered the world. The world is now held hostage and is waiting for release. With this sin, death came, and because every man sins… every man dies. Pretty simple so far?
Sin was in the world before God gave the Law… so people in that time where not held to the Law… as in the Ten Commandments which came later and for an entirely different purpose than many teach today. It was because of Adam a man, that all men are judged for he was the pattern or model of the “one to come”… meaning Jesus.
Then God added the Law to add to our transgressions Galatians (3:19) and that is and was it’s purpose. It is in a way to add insult to injury! Not in a bad way, but in a way to drive us to God for mercy and grace.
Now the Good News! Romans 5: 8… God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
10. For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
11. Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
God showed His Grace and Mercy to us by giving us His Son to die in our place… even more than that to take on the wrath on Himself in our place.
Many think they need to get cleaned up to come to God… yet, the truth is you can’t get clean enough… and beyond that, while you where still and enemies of God, God reconciled you by Jesus’ death on the Cross… but many just stop there… and this adds to their confusion as they equate forgiveness with salvation. There are two extremes in this.
- Universalism
- Exclusivism
Now if anyone has read any of Brian McLaren’s books you will see that he often gets caught in this conundrum. As he says, “each has their advantages and their disadvantages.” The issue I see is that by just stopping at the cross and equating forgiveness with salvation, one can only have these choices. That is why I preach the exchanged life and spend so much time on speaking of the Resurrection of Jesus and that being we have received His Life unto salvation! Romans 5: 10 pretty much wraps this up… “For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!”
Being reconciled through the cross means that the door to heaven is open… but one still will die if one does not take care to the death issue… Romans 6: 23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It is not sins we need saved from, but our death… for God forgave our sins… really God took care of sins with the sacrificial system… but with Jesus it is now “once for all.” (Hebrews 7:27)
Notice again that the gift of God is not just forgiveness but also eternal life in Christ Jesus! Now once the sin and death issue is taken care of… we can move on to obedience…
But this post is long enough, so next time.
Blessings,
iggy
What I have learned from my critics
What I have learned from my critics.
Disclaimer and qualifier: First off if you disagree with me, that is fine and to disagree and talk and discuss in a way that is respectful and thoughtful is a great and wonderful thing. In this we can grow with each other. This post is in no way about you. So please take this in the context of those who attack and judge… not seek to gain understanding. In this I see that it is out of love that many of you have approached me… and even ending our disagreements with kind words. It is not a sin to disagree, especially on minor things. Personally I have learned to hold tightly to the essentials, and loosely to the non essentials. In that I mean give grace in areas that though may be important, do not keep one from gaining salvation that comes from Jesus alone.
So what have I learned from my critics?
Truth; Romans 13: 9. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
10. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11. And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
What I have learned: I learned that it is a good thing to harm your neighbor… especially if it concerns one that they have to be right in their view at the detriment of another. I have learned from you that Love your neighbor does not apply if it interferes with your doctrines. I see that it is better to fulfill the Law, than to Love.
Truth: 1 Corinthians 13
1. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10. but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
11. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
12. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
I have learned: If one is right and the other is wrong I can go off the handle at any moment and show no to little self control in my actions. I can call names and make fun or ruin someone’s reputation as long as I am right on my view of doctrine. If I see someone who seems to have strong views and may even envy them, it is better to mock them and tear them down because they could lead others astray and to trust God with judgment would be unheard of.
I have learned that politeness is not a ‘christian’ virtue, nor kindness, for anger as long as it is ‘righteous anger’ can justify most any action… and self justification is one of the main unwritten doctrines I have found you follow. I learned it is best to keep a long list of wrongs so I can pull them out and read them to mock or use them even if I have to twist someone’s words to make them look bad. I have learned to use evil to protect the truth.
I have learned to not trust that God is working outside of my own actions… so to trust in God is of no value… I must either judge and condemn now, as I am ‘truthing in love’ and save this person from their error. And to even consider what they may know would be an act of humility, which has no place in your unwritten doctrinal statement.
I have learned that love will not persevere if it interferes with your personal doctrine and to give up hope on someone if having any is of no value. I have learned that if love fails… hate prevails. For hate is a ‘christian’ value and a virtue.
Truth: 1 John 3: 13. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you.
14. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
15. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
16. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
17. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18. Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
1 John 4: 19. We love because he first loved us.
20. If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
21. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
I have learned: I have learned that it is not only good but right to hate your brother if he thinks or speaks in any way contrary to my own personal view of doctrine. It is better to sacrifice the brother to be right that to give into self sacrifice. It is better to take away from someone else be it material or spiritual possessions and have no pity on him. It is better to speak the words of love like a seducer, than to love in action… It is better to hate one’s brother in the name of my doctrine, than to love him if I disagree.
I want to thank you for setting me on the path or self righteousness. I now see that Gandhi was very wrong when he said;
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”---Mahatma Gandhi
I wonder where Gandhi ever picked up on this view? Maybe because he was not a Christian as I have begun to learn to be, from my critics.
Blessings?
iggy
Disclaimer and qualifier: First off if you disagree with me, that is fine and to disagree and talk and discuss in a way that is respectful and thoughtful is a great and wonderful thing. In this we can grow with each other. This post is in no way about you. So please take this in the context of those who attack and judge… not seek to gain understanding. In this I see that it is out of love that many of you have approached me… and even ending our disagreements with kind words. It is not a sin to disagree, especially on minor things. Personally I have learned to hold tightly to the essentials, and loosely to the non essentials. In that I mean give grace in areas that though may be important, do not keep one from gaining salvation that comes from Jesus alone.
So what have I learned from my critics?
Truth; Romans 13: 9. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
10. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11. And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.
What I have learned: I learned that it is a good thing to harm your neighbor… especially if it concerns one that they have to be right in their view at the detriment of another. I have learned from you that Love your neighbor does not apply if it interferes with your doctrines. I see that it is better to fulfill the Law, than to Love.
Truth: 1 Corinthians 13
1. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10. but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
11. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
12. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
I have learned: If one is right and the other is wrong I can go off the handle at any moment and show no to little self control in my actions. I can call names and make fun or ruin someone’s reputation as long as I am right on my view of doctrine. If I see someone who seems to have strong views and may even envy them, it is better to mock them and tear them down because they could lead others astray and to trust God with judgment would be unheard of.
I have learned that politeness is not a ‘christian’ virtue, nor kindness, for anger as long as it is ‘righteous anger’ can justify most any action… and self justification is one of the main unwritten doctrines I have found you follow. I learned it is best to keep a long list of wrongs so I can pull them out and read them to mock or use them even if I have to twist someone’s words to make them look bad. I have learned to use evil to protect the truth.
I have learned to not trust that God is working outside of my own actions… so to trust in God is of no value… I must either judge and condemn now, as I am ‘truthing in love’ and save this person from their error. And to even consider what they may know would be an act of humility, which has no place in your unwritten doctrinal statement.
I have learned that love will not persevere if it interferes with your personal doctrine and to give up hope on someone if having any is of no value. I have learned that if love fails… hate prevails. For hate is a ‘christian’ value and a virtue.
Truth: 1 John 3: 13. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you.
14. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
15. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
16. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
17. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18. Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
1 John 4: 19. We love because he first loved us.
20. If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
21. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
I have learned: I have learned that it is not only good but right to hate your brother if he thinks or speaks in any way contrary to my own personal view of doctrine. It is better to sacrifice the brother to be right that to give into self sacrifice. It is better to take away from someone else be it material or spiritual possessions and have no pity on him. It is better to speak the words of love like a seducer, than to love in action… It is better to hate one’s brother in the name of my doctrine, than to love him if I disagree.
I want to thank you for setting me on the path or self righteousness. I now see that Gandhi was very wrong when he said;
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”---Mahatma Gandhi
I wonder where Gandhi ever picked up on this view? Maybe because he was not a Christian as I have begun to learn to be, from my critics.
Blessings?
iggy
Friday, July 14, 2006
Who are the pigs?
Who are the pigs?
I read this, this morning and had the thought..
Who are the pigs? The interesting thing is that it is in the beatitudes. Yet right after healing many in chapter 4. causing a large crowd to follow Him, then ending with Healing a leper in chapter 8 of Matt.
It seems to me that in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus addresses the contrast of those in power. The authority and challenges them with the coming of the Kingdom. Jesus is saying in affect that things in the Kingdom are upside down from this world’s power structure.
So, after he says “check the log in your own eye.”
He goes on to say;
“Matt7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to
pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn
and tear you to pieces.”
In that I have always assumed it to be, people in general who do not care to hear the Good News, yet here I see with the “political” attachment that Jesus is talking of the religious leaders. The same He called “vipers” and “white washed tombs”.
The reason I say that is because the Jews were looking for a political leader to run Rome out of town and instead this prophet, Jesus, shows up and seems to be against the religious leaders. To the point of going out of His way to touch those who were deemed unclean, such as the lepers. I see this is still actively true today… Be that anyone who desires to control others or God Himself by the power of Religion. In this they attempt to hold God hostage and His people hostage as they hold God to their doctrine… as opposed to having a relationship with the Father through Jesus. In essence they desire to be higher than God.
So, I am saying that my view has shifted in the last few years to seeing Jesus had and still has a specific agenda, of the, “on earth as it is in Heaven.” of tossing the Power and Authority structure on it’s head, and replacing it with a Relational system, based on our relationship with Jesus and being part of His Kingdom.
I guess I have tossed out enough fodder for thought... What think ye?
Blessings,
iggy
I read this, this morning and had the thought..
Who are the pigs? The interesting thing is that it is in the beatitudes. Yet right after healing many in chapter 4. causing a large crowd to follow Him, then ending with Healing a leper in chapter 8 of Matt.
It seems to me that in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus addresses the contrast of those in power. The authority and challenges them with the coming of the Kingdom. Jesus is saying in affect that things in the Kingdom are upside down from this world’s power structure.
So, after he says “check the log in your own eye.”
He goes on to say;
“Matt7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to
pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn
and tear you to pieces.”
In that I have always assumed it to be, people in general who do not care to hear the Good News, yet here I see with the “political” attachment that Jesus is talking of the religious leaders. The same He called “vipers” and “white washed tombs”.
The reason I say that is because the Jews were looking for a political leader to run Rome out of town and instead this prophet, Jesus, shows up and seems to be against the religious leaders. To the point of going out of His way to touch those who were deemed unclean, such as the lepers. I see this is still actively true today… Be that anyone who desires to control others or God Himself by the power of Religion. In this they attempt to hold God hostage and His people hostage as they hold God to their doctrine… as opposed to having a relationship with the Father through Jesus. In essence they desire to be higher than God.
So, I am saying that my view has shifted in the last few years to seeing Jesus had and still has a specific agenda, of the, “on earth as it is in Heaven.” of tossing the Power and Authority structure on it’s head, and replacing it with a Relational system, based on our relationship with Jesus and being part of His Kingdom.
I guess I have tossed out enough fodder for thought... What think ye?
Blessings,
iggy
Why we should know our History
Why we should know our history…
First off thanks to Stephen Shields blog for pointing this out.
I find it a bit funny that “scholars” have just decided that the Gospel of Judas was not written by Judas… uhhh no duh,
1. He killed himself!
And
B. Irenaeus wrote about this so called Gospel of Judas a long, long, long, long time ago.
“Chapter XXXI.-Doctrines of the Cainites.
1. Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.”
To me this was a non-issue… it was not a new gospel, but a heresy that had been found… and once again, it was found wanting…
Blessings,
iggy
First off thanks to Stephen Shields blog for pointing this out.
I find it a bit funny that “scholars” have just decided that the Gospel of Judas was not written by Judas… uhhh no duh,
1. He killed himself!
And
B. Irenaeus wrote about this so called Gospel of Judas a long, long, long, long time ago.
“Chapter XXXI.-Doctrines of the Cainites.
1. Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury. For Sophia was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself. They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.”
To me this was a non-issue… it was not a new gospel, but a heresy that had been found… and once again, it was found wanting…
Blessings,
iggy
Lifting up out of the mire
Lifting up out of the mire.
I have been putting a lot of thought in this idea of moderating my blog… It just kills me a bit to admit that I have in some ways been casting pearls before swine. In this day and age one must realize that we often have no idea who we are talking to online. They could be anyone, or someone who hides behind anonymity of the web. I have chosen for whatever reason to lay it all out there… warts and all. With that though I have found that I must protect not only myself, but also the precious gift of teaching that God has entrusted me with.
I have decided that moderating is a good thing as it will allow me to streamline those who want legitimate conversation versus those who have only the desire to drag me into the quagmire of argumentative debates and name calling. I am not saying I am not letting someone who disagrees with me through, or thinks I am wrong even. It will be more in the fashion of how they approach this blog with their comments. I have no desire to attack the person. I will still fight against what I see as error and distortion of the purity of the truth that is in scripture.
In a conversation, one does not attack the character or person themselves, they may challenge the statements or ask for clarity, yet to attack someone without even knowing them is really foolish… I will not be part of that on a personal level.
If I do sound the alarm on a false teaching… and it hits you in some way… I implore you to check your own heart before you come after me. Again, if you come with hate at me I will just add you to my prayer list and you will to have no voice here.
It is my hope as it was from the beginning that one might gain from my journey and that God can use even a fool like me to show His glory. I never assume I am never wrong. I am amazed when I am even remotely right! I will be depending more on Christ for grace in my writings and in my approach for seekers of Truth…
Blessings,
iggy
I have been putting a lot of thought in this idea of moderating my blog… It just kills me a bit to admit that I have in some ways been casting pearls before swine. In this day and age one must realize that we often have no idea who we are talking to online. They could be anyone, or someone who hides behind anonymity of the web. I have chosen for whatever reason to lay it all out there… warts and all. With that though I have found that I must protect not only myself, but also the precious gift of teaching that God has entrusted me with.
I have decided that moderating is a good thing as it will allow me to streamline those who want legitimate conversation versus those who have only the desire to drag me into the quagmire of argumentative debates and name calling. I am not saying I am not letting someone who disagrees with me through, or thinks I am wrong even. It will be more in the fashion of how they approach this blog with their comments. I have no desire to attack the person. I will still fight against what I see as error and distortion of the purity of the truth that is in scripture.
In a conversation, one does not attack the character or person themselves, they may challenge the statements or ask for clarity, yet to attack someone without even knowing them is really foolish… I will not be part of that on a personal level.
If I do sound the alarm on a false teaching… and it hits you in some way… I implore you to check your own heart before you come after me. Again, if you come with hate at me I will just add you to my prayer list and you will to have no voice here.
It is my hope as it was from the beginning that one might gain from my journey and that God can use even a fool like me to show His glory. I never assume I am never wrong. I am amazed when I am even remotely right! I will be depending more on Christ for grace in my writings and in my approach for seekers of Truth…
Blessings,
iggy
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