Thursday, July 27, 2006

Point by point with Steve Camp


Source:

1. The Scriptures are objective truth (Psalm 19:7-11; Psalm 119:160; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).

Iggy: Yes it is Objective…. Yet it is LIVING… which means it is both subjective and objective. Because it is a very personal relationship… to make it just objective does not allow for a “relational” faith… it makes God and Jesus impersonal. Jesus pointed this out to the Pharisees in (Luke 24, John 5:39). Don’t forget that the Holy Spirit interacts with us and scripture.

2. Scripture is eternal and does not change with the times (Psalm 119:89; Heb. 4:12-16; Jude 3).

Iggy: I think most EC people would agree, yet some are liberal… some are searching…And in that it seems that the modern church would rather silence their voice and invalidate their searching because they do not see it from the modern perspective… thus the EC is here reaching out to the post modern mindset that the moderns don’t understand. I don’t see how Heb. 4:12-16 applies as it does not say anything about being eternal… Nor you Jude reference… It's not the scripture that changes but our understanding of it… as with when Jesus came and opened the eyes of the disciples. What happened is that Scripture did change… When Jesus, being God, became flesh, the scripture now became flesh and walk amongst us. It moved from being a book of “propositional truths strung together objectively” to being the reality that is Christ Jesus. It is no long just shadows of truth but reality that is in Christ Jesus.

3. It is a more sure word than anyones vain imaginings, personal experiences, or cultural moorings (2 Peter 1:16-21).

Iggy: Again, most EC believe the scripture as their foundation and where we get our values from. The issue though is we see that vain philosophies have entered the modern church and we want to have a purer faith than that of one based on mans reasoning.


4. One question any serious student of God' Word must ask when studying Scripture is: what does it mean in and of itself? IOW, what does it mean if I were dead? Our personal baggage, personal experiences, personal cultural contextualizations, etc. mean absolutely nothing when interpreting God's Word (exegesis) and learning what IT is actually saying. The application can be varied--but not the interpretation.

Iggy: this is a very subjective question concerning you view of scripture being “objective”. But I get your point and I think the real issue of a serious student of God’s Word, (which the phrase never is used about scripture in the Bible, but solely about Jesus), is that “what does it mean that I am now alive in Christ?” The death issue for a Christian is dealt with already. Now, I would agree that a non believer must and should consider this question. Again, I agree with the last part and that is one of the big things we discuss and seek to understand more clearly. We see much that is taught today is tainted by, conservative political agendas, Americanization of the gospel (which is what much of the modern church is based on). We in the EC are seeking to transcend the “personal baggage, personal experiences, personal cultural contextualizations” and get to what God intended and Jesus taught.


5. The lens of postmodernism offers only an infantile approach to truth; and does not alter the meaning of Scripture for our time one iota.

Iggy: this is a major bad assumption. I have found that it holds truth to a higher standard as it is now focusing on Jesus being Truth… I do not see that as infantile, but foundational. In fact I have gone round and round with many who seem to think what Jesus said in John 5 concerning scripture and Himself is not true, yet myself and many others believe Truth is the person of Jesus… Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. It is no longer just a bunch of "propositional truths" strung together... but the very Person... It is raising the "if" in the propositional truth, true authority as Jesus Himself would be the source of all Truth and is Truth itself.


6. The EC is arminian (anthropocentric) and it is troubling.

Wow, this is so far off; most I have come in contacted with are Calvinist! Brian McLaren states he is (though greatly modified) In fact I do not see either Armenian or Calvinism as getting it. If you are a Calvinist, you are most probably not a pure one… as I bet you would never baptize an infant for salvation as Calvin taught. So, this is a very false statement. Sorry Steve. I was trying to do a church plant and as I was seeking out backing, I was recommended an organization that is very EC friendly, and was told since I am not a Calvinist they would not back me… You need more facts sir. (I am not an Armenian also as I hold to eternal security, If I personally go back and read the early Father, I stop at Irenaeus as I see that at the time of Constantine things started moving into to justifying the actions of Christians over defending the faith other than that I am strictly Bible for my teachings...).



7. Doctrine/theology in EC nomenclature is liquid, fluid, and adaptable; "resurging to meet the needs of a new generation."

Iggy: Isn’t that what you did with your music? That is how I got saved! If it wasn’t for Larry Norman, stepping out of the rigid structure and allowing for flexibility God would not have used him to meet my needs as I was coming to faith. There must be a liquid flowing and adaptability in ones faith so that no stagnation occurs. The Body of Christ is a living organism, if we are attached to the Head, then it will grow and live and have it’s being. The same is true on a personal level. The Pharisees believed that their view was the only view… and totally missed the Messiah as He rode into Jerusalem. They missed that God’s ways are not our ways. Isn't it our call to meet needs of our generation? To feed the poor, to love the unwanted? To tell them about Jesus in both words and action? To love them as Christ loved them?


8. The primary purpose of the local church is not about finding a new technique, understanding postmodernism so we can attract a new generation to its doors, it's about the glory of God and His worship alone.

Iggy: Again, I think you are confusing us with the seeker/purpose driven movement. I think it is vital we have some understanding of culture… If you really believe this, then why have Jim Carey on your site… and Rush, and on and on… you are using techniques in your own way to engage culture in hope that it will lead them to Christ. I see more people living in the glory of God… and their lives have become worship… in those of the EC. The purpose of the church is to be the Body of Christ and allow Him to Live His life in and through us. It is about going to the world and preaching the Gospel... to be missional. We have turned the Body of Chirst into a lifeless institution. It is a living organism. We want people to come to church, but Jesus said come to Him.


9. No one is attacking the EC here, but evaluating it. Anonymous suggested I haven't done my homework... Anyone who can't reveal their true identity which is a violation of the rules of this blog doesn't deserve an answer, but a deletion of their post. Sorry mate; when you don't post anonymously in the future, fill out a blog profile and can engage in more than just hyperbole, then we will take you seriously. I don't allow drive-by posting.

Iggy: though I am not sure that this is more directed at someone who had not followed the “rules” of your site, I think I agree with anonymous if this is you understanding of EC. You see, even in the very statement, you are setting yourself as the standard... your personal doctrines. In that I set Jesus as the standard and walk inHis grace and mercy allowing He that gave His Life for me, then gave His Life to me, to Live His Life through me... for as scripture teaches we are "saved by His Life". (Romans 5)

Blessings,
iggy

p.s Steve I believe in 1997 you wrote something that renounced your former musical career:

You said:

“Early in my own musical journey I wrote songs that neither represented good music or precise theology. My motives were vitiated; my actions were not godly; and my lips were unclean. The thirst for prominence and position made my heart prideful, judgmental and callused.”

Be careful you are not still just accepting the "adda boys" of those around you... I see it very clearly in your ministry now... I used to see you with very strong anointing on your music and ministry... even if in your own heart might have not seen it "pure". To many of us you were the next to take the mantel of Keith Green... yet, nothing happened... do not let "shame" be your base, but let the Love of Jesus and the firmness of His salvation and the trueness of His Faithfulness to us by what guides your heart.

4 comments:

HusbanDaddy said...

Iggy,

Hello there. I just wanted to drop you a line...and it has nothing to do with arguing over belief systems, etc.

I just want to say that you are not alone in experiencing what you experienced on Camps site. I have been reading for months now and have witnessed it time and again.

If folks do not entirely agree with Camp AND they have a substancial argument that challenges him, the are put-down, accused of character issues, etc., even accused of lying, until they decide they've had enough.

Then they are proclaimed to be "bailers"...it is almost comical how consistent this process is.

If you love Camp, you're in for life. If you disagree with him but have no ability to challenge him, he tolerates you. If you challenge him for all to see...you are attacked until either you bail or he kicks you out.

And he has kicked folks out...claiming they've broken "anonymous" rules...only there are some who agree with him who broke the rules and were not removed.

It's hideous. I was a fan of him music for a long time...since I was 12...not any more. Can't even listen now as I see a very rude and uncaring elitist whenever I hear his tunes.

Yes, I'm venting...but you are not alone...not at all.

iggy said...

Husbandaddy,
Thanks for venting.... LOL! believe me I have seen it so many times... it is like in the first Iraq war... we went kicked their butts... left too soon, then Saddam declared that he was the victor... It is spin that is it. I really think that he has let being friends with celebrities override his values and even how he reads and understand the bible... which i know much about as i too was there once...

The focus is ME being RIGHT and YOU being WRONG... no matter what!

It is simply as i say, really saying, "MY SELF RIGHTESOUNESS IS THE STANDARD... and if you don't agree... go to hell." They then strut and feel they have done their job and warned the person "in love"... but really are just religious bullies.

I will not comment on his blog again, I have given him too much voice anyway... other than to point out the hypocrisy anti EC people have in their lives... I was a fan of Steve years ago also… and even sang one of his songs in church. To me he was a prophetic voice and I believed would toke the mantel of Keith Green, yet he seemed to just drop out of the scene… and now I know why… which is sad… and like I said breaks my heart.

I have an online Christian radio station… (See links to the right) which I promote artists, mostly indie… yet I often wonder if I am just a peddler in the commercialization of the gospel… (Though I think I have made less that $400 dollars in the 6 years it has been running). I was going got upload some Steve Camp… then saw the blog and was really excited, yet then I saw what it really is… and I will not support his ministry if he is out to abuse people…

Again, thanks for your comment. You will see as you read some of my other posts that I have had my share of Steve’s already. Yet, that is part of the experience of the journey… and as with the reformation, and other movements, there were those who attacked and abused, and even murdered those who stepped away from the established accepted view. So I feel in good standing with those courageous ones who stood up for Christ.

Blessings,
iggy

Alex Seidel said...

Hey Iggy - I just spent a week challenging Steve and others on his blog re: their criticism of a Seattle Pastor. They sliced and diced him on their blog, not in personal Biblical confrontation. I challenged the humility, name-calling by Steve (he claimed he only did what the pastor in question was doing, but in "tremendous humility and love") and the theological harping behind the back of the pastor in question.

And I challenged the fact that they took a doctrinally superior stance through a variety of proof-texted quotes and a John MacArthur quote. Hmmmm. Anyway, I kept on point (mostly anyway) but was banned from the blog two days ago without any real answers to the issues I was raising.

Sad. This blog comes across like a little holy huddle of Steve Camp groupies. It's unfortunate, but I have learned that there is a huge and growing backlash against what I perceive to be a new reformation the likes the world has never seen.

Thought you'd be interested.

Peace,
Alex

iggy said...

I am more saddened by this news than anything. Some people think I have some personal vendetta against Steve... I don't. But I do see someone that once was being used of God, now promoting "Calvin/John MacArthur" instead of Jesus. (Please do not take that as I am against Calvinists.)

I see someone that has allowed the cult of personality to change him... and not for the better.

Be sure to pray for Steve for that is about the only thing one can do with this sort of spiritual pride.

Be blessed,
iggy