Wednesday, June 21, 2006

More on the last topic

More on the last topic

I found this interesting articles… some are not even PM/E/e and are saying basically what I have been preaching here.

No Room for Personal Truth By Dr. Bruce Prescott

Another thought is that of why is propositional truth need to be so cold and objective? It seems to run contrary to the Creeds of the faith let alone the Truth of the Incarnation. These versions are all taken from Creeds of Christendom

The "Rule of Faith" as recorded by Irenaeus:
. . . this faith: in one God, the Father Almighty, who made the heaven and the earth and the seas and all the things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was made flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who made known through the prophets the plan of salvation, and the coming, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and his future appearing from heaven in the glory of the Father to sum up all things and to raise anew all flesh of the whole human race . . .

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.


Of course The Apostle John had this to say. 1 John 1:1. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. NIV
I see that at least for me that Truth must be found in the Person of Christ, and only to be possessed when that life indwells us.

Blessings,
iggy


28 comments:

Dan said...

Hey iggy,

I have a couple comments/questions. Firstly, who is it that you are saying holds to propositional truth and nothing else? I understand that emergents feel very strongly that that there is more to truth than what is propositional, but, since your posts seem to be in response to something, you might want to give a link or quote of a group that is claiming otherwise.
Secondly, proposition will always have to be the root of discussion. There is certainly a place for truth that is gained from experiencing God and his creation, but such truth is by its nature subjective (and I don't mean that in a negative way). One can tell me about what they have experience, how they feel, etc but the only thing I can really say to that is "That's nice" or a similar comment. For instance, someone may say, "I can feel God's love whenever I go into my child's room" and I can say 'ok' but since I am not that person and cannot say with any certainty whether or not what they feel truly is God's love or even if my experiences are truly comparable, the conversation can't tread much beyond this plain. This is not to say that these conversations don't have value, but without appealing to something that is objective, we can never truly understand one another. Looking back at my previous example, if that same person then tells me how they define love, how they define God, etc I will have a greater understanding of what they are refering to.
Otherwise I would agree with you in many regards. Christianity cannot be defined by cold dry statements about scripture. In the Lutheran church, we take issue with the fundamentalist corruption of "scripture alone." Fundies believe that acceptance of scriptural authority comes first, followed by faith in Christ. But us Lutherans believe that:
"faith in Christ comes first as a miraculous work of God's Spirit through the means of grace. Our view of the Bible then results from our faith in the Gospel." (taken from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod website)
It is only through relationship with God that we are able to see the Bible as anything but words on a page.
You might like this article put out by the LCMS on this subject iggy, check it out sometime.

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/gospel_scripture.pdf

iggy said...

Dan,
You hit the nail on the head!

Really as you have even seen it is the fundamentalist that holds as you said.

Dan: "In the Lutheran church, we take issue with the fundamentalist corruption of "scripture alone." Fundies believe that acceptance of scriptural authority comes first, followed by faith in Christ. But us Lutherans believe that:"

That is what I am speaking of... clumblsy (sp?) of course. I wish I was more clear, as I fully acknowledge that I am speak far beyond my own educational background on this topic… because the funny thing is, I realized this from scripture as Jesus was teaching me…

It is a bit of the snake that eats his own tail… it starts nowhere and finishes nowhere, and yet that is where faith comes in.


I can not prove the bible to be God’s word. In that I mean there are things that are true in it, yet I cannot say, without a leap of faith, that the words of scripture where from God’s mouth to the writer’s pen. We do not have the original manuscripts, and if we did, we can still only trust that what the writer is saying is saying by putting faith in the writer, that he being a man of God, wrote faithfully what God was saying. What I can do is test it to be true on a subjective level, which in turn is tested by others… then we fellowship together and see the commonality of it. That is why scripture teaches in 1 Cor 11:

19. “No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.”

Differences are needed to find that commonality of truth revealed in those that have God’s approval… Meaning those who have placed their faith in Christ versus those who are still in the “conversion state” and have not moved onto maturity in the faith.

Really to the unregenerate mind, the bible is just words. To these it in itself proves nothing other than some historical significance and some religious myths. One can place faith in scripture, and that is what the Pharisees did… they hoped to find life… I believe many live that way now, often only because they have been taught that. In that I will not say they are not true believers or are not save, yet, I have debated many over and over and see a very divisive and un-Christ like zealousness. I have been judged by these over and over… yet, for me, I would be a Paul and be willing to go to hell so that if they are not saved, will be saved from hell. I do mean this.

In the future I hope to write on something I call a “religious spirit”, which is as scripture states “13. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. (2 Cor 11)

I will not judge the individual, at least not about their salvation. I will and have discerned that some have a “evil spirit” that is not of God, yet believe they are doing God’s work. You see I was one of those for a time… then God pulled me out, by His grace.

Blessings,
iggy

ben2590 said...

Dan and Iggy,
Hope you haven't missed me. I signed up so that Iggy can tell the teacher or call his mommy or whatever his manliness deems necessary when I disagree with him.

You two have epistemological conundra. Iggy wishes to know without knowing. Dan, you, want to incorporate the subjective with your faith. Iggy's problem is so basic and so silly that I can't imagine that pointing it out any more will do any good. (However, I am sure he will continue to call me names.) I notice that he has continued on with the proposition that propositions are bad.

Dan, I am more concerned about you. I know by your writing that you are the real thing. Be careful, though, because you have fallen into the trap common in the modern church.

Let me illustrate this way:

STEP ONE:
What is the gospel? It is defined in the first few verses of I Cor. 15. It contains the following elements: 1--Christ died for our sins. 2--This was prophesied in the Scriptures. 3--He was buried. 4--He rose on the third day. 5--This was objectively proven by numerous appearances.

These are all objective facts--doctrines--propositional truth. So the gospel is doctrinal and propositional.

STEP TWO:
According to Romans 10 we are only saved by hearing the gospel. And we have to believe these doctrinal propositional truths.

STEP THREE:
According to II Tim. 3:16-17 all we need is Scripture for all that is needed in our spiritual lives.

STEP FOUR:
Please tell me if you can, where in Scripture we are told to look for mystical "knowledge?" What happened if persons in the OT looked for mystical enlightenment?

Have to cut this short.

Ben.

ben2590 said...

Dan,
Sorry for having to cut that comment off so short. My wife was buggin' to leave for church.

One last question is this. And the answer will have much more to do with the condition of your heart than with anything else.

Why do you refer to doctrine as something that makes you want to get sick? "Cold, hard, doctrine" and so forth. That is wrong to start with.

Jesus was raised the third day. That is a propositionally true doctrine. Why do dolks like Iggy hate it so and why to you talk as if it bothered you? Do you have something better?

You are saved only if you have correct doctrine about Who Jesus is and what He has done.

Let's seeee herrrrre... God says the gospel (the five doctrinal elements already mentioned) will save me from eternal punishment and make me like God Himself, not in capacity, but similar to Him in character--sinless in heaven.

And that BORES you? Shame on you. You have lost your first love.

Ben.

iggy said...

Hello Ben,

I see you brought all your pleasantries with you...

You really still miss the main point of this discussion.

Step 1. Jesus is not just an objective fact... He is a person and the risen One. The God of the universe the eternal Father... I could go on... to reduce Him to an objective fact is really silly isn't it. In this

a. Yes Jesus ( a person) died on the Cross for our sins... we agree!

b. This was prophesized, by REVEALTION!!!!!!! THROUGH PROPHETS!!!! by DEVINE INPSIRATIONAL KNOWLEDGE... REVEALED by the same God...

3. He was buried 4. He rose on the 3rd day and yes, from an objective view of scripture and history this is a proven ... yet, where you there and observed it first hand? Can you completely honestly say that you have observed this as it happened and can completely say it was true? That is what a true objective fact is... it is proven by all from the outside to be true...

Again, I am not against truth... and if you bothered to read again, you will see that. I am against "man made doctrines" and for "sound doctrine". You have yet to answer that for me... whose doctrine are you talking about? Calvinism, Armeninsm, Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic, Eastern orthodox, and so on... who and which group holds the true doctrine you are talking about? Your continuing accusations about this is confounding as I see you do not really care to answer this which I hope you will consider a real question... maybe you can't? I hope you will take the time to consider this.

Gospel doctrine would be "sound doctrine" if it is not tarnished by man's addition to the finished work of Christ as you just pointed out...

Step 2. Romans 10 is a great example! It is in putting your trust in the Person if Jesus that one is saved! It is not just believing, but confessing "Jesus is Lord." it is more than belief, but faith in action resulting in a personal relationship with Jesus... For if it was just belief, as you say, why would James say, “16. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17. In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?


And what is the deed we must do? Read here in 1 John… 21. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22. and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

What you have done with how you used Romans is called proof-texting, Ben, and yes I too am fall victim of this also. One cannot just take a verse and base their theology on that one verse or even that whole chapter without looking at the bigger context of the scripture as a whole. Because with just use in the verses you did, the Demons of the Gospel would be saved by your definition…

For they:

Believe the scriptures and called Jesus His title . Matthew 8:28 and Mark 5: 7. He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!"
8. For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"
9. Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many."
10. And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.
11. A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside.
12. The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them."
13. He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.


The Demons believed… yet this did not save them… so belief by itself is not going to save us… even to say, “I believe in Jesus and that He is the Son of the Most High.” will not save us. I will even go as far as to say, that one can believe that Jesus died and was buried, and even rose again… one still might not be saved. I think that even Satan and his demons believe that that has happened also!

So what does save us? The Person of Jesus and our relationship with Him is what saves us. It is putting your faith in action and becoming a New Creation. The demons do not act on their belief in Who Jesus is. Rather they rebel against it.

Step 3: I am not against scripture. I am not saying that propositional truth is not in scripture. I am saying that our faith is based on a the Person of Jesus Christ and not just propositional truth. So I agree that that is what scripture is for… again we agree.

Step 5: The whole book of Revelation is a great on… how did John receive the book? Through revelation! And:

Romans 16: 25. Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
26. but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--
27. to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

1 Cor 14: 26. What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. (notice the must be done part?)

1 Cor 14: 29. Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.

Galatians 1: 11. I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. (According to you, Paul should have been stoned!)

And again as I prayed for you in an earlier time…

Ephesians 1: 17. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19. and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20. which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21. far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23. which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.


I could go on and on for there are many, many more passages in which we receive revelation from God. You seem to be twisting what I am saying into something unbiblical. So, I ask in earnest, what is your source of truth, or who is your source of truth?

Blessings,
iggy

iggy said...

Ben,

Ben said: "One last question is this. And the answer will have much more to do with the condition of your heart than with anything else.

Why do you refer to doctrine as something that makes you want to get sick? "Cold, hard, doctrine" and so forth. That is wrong to start with.

Jesus was raised the third day. That is a propositionally true doctrine. Why do dolks like Iggy hate it so and why to you talk as if it bothered you? Do you have something better?

You are saved only if you have correct doctrine about Who Jesus is and what He has done."

Why do you continue to judge me? I you never answer my questions... which doctrines? do you not see some are man made and are harmful? So you beleive that one must speak in tounges to be save? Or that if one speaks in tounge one is demon posessed? which doctrine is right? Which one is man made? Do you beleive both to be sound doctrine?

I do nt see that "ALL DOCTRINE" is "SOUND DOCTRINE"... but once again, you miss this completely and would rather attack me. This is sad and shows the condition of your heart as we are called to love one another and edify each other.

My prayers are with you. I do not see this going anywhere so I will ask you, please to not come here again or answer my questions with respect to me a s brohter in the the Lord. If you cannot I will report you as an abuser.

Again, Ben, the Pharasees had perfect doctrine... yet they crucified Jesus... did their doctrine save them? no. Only the Person of Jesus can save us.
Peace,
iggy

iggy said...

Ben I reccomend that you read a bit of this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)#Objectivism

Just cut and paste it. It is a good cursory look at the topic of objectivity. In a way to see scritpure as this... is very unscriptural as if you are wrong in one small point you can come out wrong on the big points, such as if one proof-texts James and then uses the OT to say we are to do good works to be saved. That by the way is a "man made doctrine" I stand against and often preach against here... and is the context which many if not most of my statements are said.

Blessings dear brother in Christ,
iggy

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
First, you said, "Jesus is not just an objective fact..."

To start with, implying that I have "reduced" Him to less than a Person is beyond obtuse. It is dishonest. What part of "He" and "Him" don't you understand?

Furthermore, your assertion that "Jesus is not just an objective fact..." does not relieve you of anything. In fact, it is basically meaningless. All objective facts are statements about reality.

Illustration: "I have a hole in the pair of pants I wore yesterday" is an objective fact that I just formed into a proposition. Iggy argues that the hole is more than just an objective fact.

Why, yes, it is a hole. And that is an objective fact. So I still have to patch it or get a new pair of pants or I'll objectively get fired.

Why, yes, Jesus is a Person. And that is an objective fact. So I still have to repent of my sin and love and worship Him or I'll go to an objective hell.

I treat Him much more like a Person than the Emerging Church. You insist that Christ is to be followed, but your Christ is faceless. He can give no moral demends because that would be propositional. He can give no doctrinal commands, because that would be doctrine. Why you must always live by the "life of Christ," not doctrine.

By the way, tell me if you live by the "life of Christ," could you define it for me without using doctrine or propositional statements?

Don't even try you can't. This is only Emerging Church jibberish.

Second, what is all the going-on about revelation? Why the dichotomy between revelation and Scripture. That is what the Scripture is. Revelation in written form.

If your point is you have revelation of your own, I have read the Apostle John. I have studied the Apostle John. I have outlined books of the Apostle John. And, Iggy, you are no Apostle John. (Oooooh, I loved doing that!)

One test we can make right here is your assertion that we need more than the Scripture. We already mentioned II Tim. 3 where we read, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful...so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Hmmmmm........so Paul did not need anything outside of Scripture and said that we do not. Therefore, you, Iggy, have failed the prophet test because you emphasize the need for extra revelation. OT says to stone you. NT says not to allow you entre to the church.

You say you don't hate the truth, but you consistently express hatred for those that seek to guard it, making it second class under some special "knowledge" that you get mystically from knowing Christ. Want quotes? AND you continue to describe faith in Christ as not objective or propositional, but relational. AND did you or did you not write a blog about how conceited educated folk were and how it was alright to remain uninformed because God will bless your not knowing? Want quotes?

The gospel is the objective, propositional doctrine which we must know and believe in order to obey. Only then can we come into right relation to God through Christ.

As John McArthur has duly noted, the denial of propositional truth (doctrine for those of you in Rio Linda) is an attempt to rob Christ of His Headship. The logic is both inescapable and simple. Christ has given us many many propositional doctrines about morals, called commandments. To refuse these commands, whether ethical or doctrinal, is to refuse the Lordship of the One making those commands--Christ.

Please lay off the whining about "judging." First of all, I only comment on what you say yourself. Second, if you want to see judgmental stuff, just read your own palaver. You hate "Fundamentalists" (whoever that is according to whomever one might ask), you hate the church in general wishing them all to burn in hell or something like that and you call all sorts of people Gnostics.

That last one is really ironic for a guy that is supposed to be in the Emerging Church. It was the Gnostics that claimed to have had special knowledge that you could not get from Scripture or the apostles. That was their great claim to fame--"we know this special stuff and you only know the Scripture." Sounds rather like the Emerging Church to me.

Finally, you have admitted that propositional truth saves when you said, "Romans 10 is a great example! It is in putting your trust in the Person if Jesus that one is saved! It is not just believing, but confessing "Jesus is Lord."

"Jesus is Lord" is propositional truth-doctrine. And actually, you misquoted. It is like this, "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

You must confess that Jesus is YOUR Lord, hence the word "as," not "is."

Notice the two elements, confess Jesus as Lord, and believe that God raise Him. Both are propositional truths. The first is a votitional response to the doctrines of the gospel made public, the second is a volitional response to the doctrines of the gospel in the form of subjecting the mind and heart to those doctrines.

Don't feel bad about admitting that propositional truth saves. Paul did the same when he said that the gospel is the power of God for salvation.

Ben.

iggy said...

Ben,

We seem to agree on things you can't see, and disagree on things you don't understand.

And that is fine with me.

Go in peace as serve our Lord the best you can.

And may His peace that passes all understanding enter your heart and mind so you can love our Saviour more and more each day.

Blessings,
iggy

Lord,
Bless Ben with Who you are, I rejoice in his confession of You as his Lord and Saviour! Glory!

It is by Your blood we are forgiven and by your blood we are saved, and by your resurrection we have the redemption of our being! Fill Ben with your glory and love so he can minister the power of reconciliation. Give him fullness of understanding to grow closer to You! Show Him the power of You eternal Life that now dwells in us!

In Jesus Name,
Amen

ben2590 said...

Dan,
I thought it would be really informative to notice what Iggy said here:

Quote--I can not prove the bible to be God’s word. In that I mean there are things that are true in it, yet I cannot say, without a leap of faith, that the words of scripture where from God’s mouth to the writer’s pen.

So Iggy is generous enough to say that some things in the Bible are true. Maybe we are gettin' down to the nitty-gritty here.

Quote--We do not have the original manuscripts,

No, but we have 30 thousand NT manuscripts. That should do it. We are much closer to the very letter and flourish of Paul, than Shakespear. So do we doubt what is in the second act of King Lear?

Long quote--and if we did, we can still only trust that what the writer is saying is saying by putting faith in the writer, that he being a man of God, wrote faithfully what God was saying. What I can do is test it to be true on a subjective level, which in turn is tested by others… then we fellowship together and see the commonality of it. That is why scripture teaches in 1 Cor 11:

19. “No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.”

Differences are needed to find that commonality of truth revealed in those that have God’s approval… Meaning those who have placed their faith in Christ versus those who are still in the “conversion state” and have not moved onto maturity in the faith.

This is another reason a guy like Iggy should never be allowed to teach anywhere that the Scripture is respected. The point of that passage is factions caused by false teaching. The factions are God's way of separating the sheep from the goats. Iggy is case in point.

Ben.

iggy said...

Lord,

Grant the revalation of Your love for the brethern to Ben, that he may see that it is by Your love and life we live.

Grant ot him a messure of assurance of you Love and of your eternal security.

Give him peace of heart and knowledge of the Grace and truth tha only comes from You.

In your precious Name Jesus,
Amen

Blessings,
iggy

Dan said...

Ben,

I appreciate your concern but you don't have to lose sleep on account of me. I just got back to this post and haven't read everything that has gone on, so let me just respond to your post directed to me.

First of all I agree with you that I do want to incorporate the subjective into my faith and I in fact succeed in doing so (as anyone who has faith inevitably does). Let me clarify that when i use the term subjective, I mean something that is particular to a given person. I do not mean to imply something unreal or imagined by the individual that has no basis or form in reality. For example, the love that you have for your wife is real. But what makes it significant is not that it can be measured and proved in some objective manner. What defines it to you is your subjective experience. Let me be very clear that I am not in any way saying that subjective experience can or should be the foundation for anything. Some of the most dangerous occurances in human history were born from such an idea. Rather I believe that because we have objective, propositional, universal (place your adjective here) truth as a base, we are able to interpret and enjoy subjective experience. This is kind of a big topic that can get really hairy so I'll leave that there for now and move one.
I'm going to have to disagree with step 2 and 4 of the "4 steps" you presented. In response to step two, I think you have oversimplified and misrepresented our salvation. We are saved by grace through the Holy Spirit who gives us faith in the gospel. From that faith we are able to look at scripture properly. It is only through the Holy Spirit working through us that we can come to receive faith in the gospel as Paul tells us in Romans 8 when he says " When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God." From this point we don't HAVE to believe these doctrinal propositional truths but rather do so freely and joyfully through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not out of compulsion or fear. Perhaps I am looking to much into the wording here, but I think it's a point worth clarifying.

Looking now at step 4, who said anything about mystical knowledge? I would have to admit, that i am a fan of writers labeled as mystics (St. Teresa, St. John of the Cross, Evagrius Ponticus, Origen) but I would hardly prescribe to anything as esoteric as "mystical knowledge."

Moving along...

In answer to your question, when I talked about "cold and dry statements sbout scripture" I wasn't talking about the doctrine of the church. I was referring to any number of fundamentalist abuses of scripture (using the Bible as an almanac for apologetic pissing matches rather than a vessel of the Gopsel and the greatest love the world has ever known as just one example). I love doctrine. I spend a good chunk of my free time reading up on the doctrine of my own church as well as others. i can't get enough of the stuff! But when the Word of God is turned into nothing but a collection of facts and is no longer the living Word that flows within all believers, then it IS cold and dry and in fact ceases to be the true doctrine of the church.
Finally, I never said or implied that anything bores me and i have no idea where you pulled that from.

Dan

P.S. Shame on me? Do me a favor Ben, save you self-righteous condescension for flaming 12 year old on the evangelical web boards. Let's try to handle ourselves like adults here.

Dan said...

One more thing before i hit the hay. I did a quick glance over some of the last couple of posts and have a few comments. Quick points of contention:

1) We are saved when we believe AND are baptized (sorry, the Lutheran in me had to come out).
2) Again i want it to be clear, we proclaim God only because the Holy Spirit working in us allows us to do so.
3) We can prove beyond a shoadow of a doubt that what we have as the Bible today is at least 97% accurate and that any "mistakes" are negligable. But we do ultimate have to believe that God is who he says he is by faith since faith is the "assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen" and not "the assurance of things proved in the latest copy of Evidence that Demands a Verdict"
4) Ben has proved that objective truth alone cannot lead someone to the truth. He may be right and every word coming out of his golden keyboard a jewel from heaven but without love he has truly become a noisy gong.
** Disclaimer: this comment is not a hidden denial of objective truth. The author is not suggesting that inplace of doctrine we all sit around in a drum circle and give each other hugs.

ben2590 said...

Dan,
Thanks for your timely response. You have thought a great deal of this through.

First, I don't mean that objective truth saves you itself. Objective truth is all you need to be saved and to obey God. Without it you cannot be saved. Adding to it is a sin. That is all over Scripture.

Second, the cuss words between Christians are really not needed. I've seen it before, but ignored it as perhaps a slip.

Third, I want to reiterate that I do think you are genuine. What shows that to me is your regard for Scripture.

Fourth, could you give me a biblical definition of love? I think it would be an interesting study. The reason I mention it as that you say I have no love, yet my words when confronting error are not as harsh as those of our Lord. I have not called anyone a pile of dung. Jesus did that and He always staed strong in speaking directly.

A good definition is in I and II John. If you are too busy, I will give you the answer in a couple of days.

At any rate, how would you rate the love factor of a prophet who said what Elijah said to the prophets of Baal? Remember his humorous questions? He said maybe their god couldn't hear them because he was asleep or going to the can.

If I said anything close to that, what would you have said?

Was Elijah or Jesus without love?

Ben.

iggy said...

Lord,

Please give Ben Your Love and teach him your ways.

Teach him to approach others with love and humility

To give grace and patience... all with a servants heart.

To allow You to judge the wheat and tare and to learn to love those around him.

To use discernment, yet without judgmentalism and condemnation.

To seek peace and reconciliation over his own agendas.

To be sacrificial in his love to others knowing none of us deserve your great salvation and it is only because of you great grace and mercy we are saved.

Open his heart to the depth of your love, which at times we must be strong, yet even in those times it is to be done in respect and humility as we too can fall into the same sin, or that pride too can blind us for the log in our own eye.

Mostly Father, bless hi abundantly as he seeks you in truth and humility. Yet, as I pray for myself often, discipline Ben in my ways of error. For you discipline is in love and for our own betterment.

Again, I rejoice that Ben is a dear brother in Christ and I thank you for Your blood spilt for him and Your resurrection that now gives him life abundantly.

In Jesus name,
Amen

iggy said...

Ben,
The lesson of Elijah was... "Not by power or might, but by my Spirit". He learned this when he was seeking God in the Thunder and lighting, and found him in the quiet... the quiet was symbolic of humility and dependence on the Lord. Elijah was taught that God is not just the God who will destroy other gods, but the God that is of peace.

Also, if I serve Jesus yet you say I serve Baal, you are falling in line with the Pharisees that accused Jesus of doing miracles by Beelzebub... good job! You have shown who you do align yourself with... and the condition of your heart.

I will continue to pray that you move from the schoolmaster of the Law to Life in Christ. I do believe you are a sincere brother in Christ... for I will not judge you as far as salvation, maturity yes, but the wheat and tare are to be harvest together... and that will be when JESUS JUDGES, not Ben...

Lord,

Shower your Love and kindness on Ben, for it is your kindness that leads us to repentance. Teach him by your Spirit to love You and to love others as You have commanded and have said would be a sign that we follow you.

For all good things come from you father... all through your Son, Jesus.

And In Jesus Name I pray,
Amen


Blessings,
iggy

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
Don't accuse me of being your brother. You push Brian McLaren and then try to call yourself a Christian. That is lying.

Nice show prayers. Do you think that the god of the Church of We Don't Know Anything and Don't Want To has ears?

Ben.

iggy said...

Ben,

Judge me and send me to hell...
Typical... how loving you are!

I still love you in Christ...

Just as the scripture teaches that you say you believe...

If you can't get along, at least live at peace as best you can...

So GO!!!!! And be at peace...

For if I was not saved by grace through faith.

If I did not believe:
in one God, the Father Almighty, who made the heaven and the earth and the seas and all the things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was made flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who made known through the prophets the plan of salvation, and the coming, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and his future appearing from heaven in the glory of the Father to sum up all things and to raise anew all flesh of the whole human race . . .


Which I do... Then your accusation would have merit.

Jesus is not a faceless God as you seem to think I believe... far from it!!!

You are nothing more than an accuser of the brethren... like your father... so repent! Turn now or find your end with him in REV 12!!!! I am serious here...

My prayers are genuine also... you judge me and my motive? YOU? Who never met me, yet know me as if you are GOD HIMSELF? You are a mockery of our faith as you set yourself up to be GOD HIMSELF!!!

Who are you to judge another man's servant???? Paul praised God that Christ was preached even if the motive was not right!!!

You are blind and have deceived yourself... And I bet the only thing you do is go away and say... "See iggy is mean and nasty and..." I don't care what you say... I care only that you repent and that you see the error and danger of the path you are on... I have put up with you lies and accusations... your misunderstanding and ignorance of the things you talk about... you have yet to have an honest exchange of conversation. Even this rebuke is kinder than you have been to me!!!

YOU CLAIM TO BE A CHRISTIAN??? I believe Christ died for you, yet I wonder if you have really met Him? Your words and deeds do not match your claims! REPENT!!!!

I am not angry but rather I am sadden, and will continue to pray for you as I do for all those who have come to attack me, because Jesus taught so.

Have you once prayed for me? I doubt it... check your heart brother... and I agree, at this point maybe you should not call me brother... as I do not see the family traits of Christ in you from your exchange.

From the start you have condescended as if you are the GREAT WISE ONE WITH ALL KNOWLEDGE, which is a sign of your lack of humility.

You are so bound to being right, that even if you are wrong you can't admit it... that is called SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS!

Even when I said “I agree”... you just say, "Now we are getting somewhere"... maybe I was there and beyond, graciously waiting for you to catch up!!!! You don't know me or my journey of faith... You should read my last post on judging others... then REPENT! as you are aligning yourself with Satan by your deeds!

So please out of respect and integrity, do not return unless you repent!

Good day,
iggy


Lord,
I lift up Ben, that you guide him in your ways of righteousness, to not depend on his own, but to cleave to You and all You are. Father bring him great discipline to bring him closer to your heart. Protect him from the evil one, unless you deem it that he be cosigned to Satan for the destruction of his body for the salvation of his soul.

Grant him mercy Father that he can learn. Open his heart that your words can be written upon it. Keep him in your hands for there is no better place to be.

In Jesus Name,
Amen

ben2590 said...

Dan,
Just reread you last response to me.

Think this through: You said that objective truth cannot lead one to the truth.

Don't get mad; just think along.

Locically: Objective truth is the only kind there is. What is often called subjective truth is only feelings. And even they can be described objectively. For instance, "I am giddy," can be objectively true. The giddiness is just not the locus of truth or a source of truth.

Biblically: Yes, the objective truths called the Gospel is God's power to bring us into full relationship with the Truth (God.)

Think it through, please.

God bless,
Ben.

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
Alright. You win. I repent. I now see how wise you are to call your self a Christ follower and still recommend people like McLaren who approves of sodomy, and theooze which advocates panentheism.

In fact, I think I seeeee.....I seeee....Oh yes. That's it. I see pink daffodils......everywhere!

WWWeeeeeeeeeeee.......

Ben

ben2590 said...

Hey, Iggy,
I found one more really interesting quote that you wrote. It is from back when you wrote that Jim Bublitz was wrong for calling Christians to holy living.

You said, "Of what the critics who say that Emergent’s say, “we can do as we please and fulfill our own desires.” I have not ever heard taught or have ever read."

That is sooo dishonest. I and others I have read on your blog have told you that the Emerging folks have often promoted everything from socialism, to the drug culture, to sexual perversions. And the links are on your website.

Then you have the nerve to lie like that?

I am sorry. That is just true. Follow your own links.

I would be embarrassed to do such a thing. Who do you think you are kidding anyway?

Do you think God will not hold you responsible?

Ben

iggy said...

Ben,
Keep banging your gong... and showing your true self...

And I will continue to pray...

Now, why don't you get some integrity and start your own blog to spread your hate centered faith... and you can feel free to say and do as you please. At least the others who came to share in love that I am damned to hell have done that… I feel in good company as Christ Himself was called the very things you have said about me… by the Pharisees.


I have researched and read and studied and met and talked to and fellowshipped with he people you despise (in Christ of course) and find them more Christ like than anything you have said and one here to me on my blog... You most probably have not even read anything of the people you seem to hate... and that is very dishonest.

Really your beef is not with me, but Brian McLaren... and that is not honest of you. Go and attack him!

So repent and stop being like the accuser of the brethren… and rejoice that Christ is preached…

Lord,
Lift the blinders that keep Ben from see YOU. Give him the Damascus experience you gave Paul... and even myself.

In Jesus Name,
Amen

iggy said...

Here is the challenge Ben, start your own blog and link to all these people and show me and others the allegation and quotes and anything else you claim... I bet you will not find one without twisting it somehow!

I will visit and explain what it means...

But you must do your part first.

Now go...

You will have the last word here...
If you don't go I will moderate this blog and not let your hate be preached anymore.

Get some integrity and honesty and do some real research... and I don't mean Slice of Laodohseeya!

are you up to it, like a real man?

go with your god...

iggy

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
No problem. I will. You already know how to get to my blog--ben2590.blogspot.com. Watch it over the next week. I will put all this stuff on it.

Debating you is fun. It's too easy.

Oh--thanks for the tip on zitsemerge.blogspot.com. It is hilarious. Did you read the interview with Phil McLaren? I rolled on the floor.

Ben

iggy said...

That was a debate? When did you start? All I got out you was that you hate Brian McLaren and me and that you had nothing more to say except you think I am a liar... and that you have no idea what a conversation is, and now, I wonder if you know what a debate is?

Not much substance there... You remind me of Rush Limbah saying,” If you have to resort to name calling you have no substantial argument" then he went on to the FemaNazi report... I stopped listening as I agreed, he must have run out of substantial arguments since he resorted to name calling.


BTW, did you realize that there is not Phil McLaren? Brian does not have a brother or half brother and that whole interview is a farce?

Just letting you know the facts.

See you someday when you actually have ammo to debate with!

May Christ Jesus fill your heart.
iggy

ben2590 said...

Iggy,
It's a spoof making light of you Emerging folks.

I think that is obvious.

Have you told the teacher yet?

Ben

iggy said...

Ben,
Yes you are correct and I too had an laugh over it as it i was so ludicruis and so far off the mark... beleive me we laugh at this sort of thing between ourselves also!

Yet, SL!ce of Layoddayseeya, did do a post on the naked church that was meeting... surfing and meeting with naturalists... it was a spoof, and we tried to let them know... but they posted it as a fact... and it was a hoot! I don't think they ever retracted that.

If you want the post I can dig it up... those guys print anything, like God killing emergent leaders by electrocution while doing a baptism... ooooooh the love...
Paul Proctor is one loving dude!!!!

So,
got your facts straight and your blog rolling? Or too busy checking the cars out with your relatives in Rio Linda?

good day,
iggy

Dan said...

Ben,

Sorry I haven't responded in a few days, I've been a little busy.

Alright, where were we?

"the cuss words between Christians are really not needed. I've seen it before, but ignored it as perhaps a slip."

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. I don't thing I have used anything that would constitute a cuss word on this blog.

I'll get back to defining love in a later response when I have a little more time, but let me make one point. You can prove that abrasive language and actions can still be loving and in fact have precedent in the Bible, but you have neglected to explain how their context is in unity with yours. Yes Christ may have called people some harsh things and he even cleansed the temple with a whip, that doesn't mean that every person with a Bible in their pocket that goes around slapping people with whips is loving.

"Think this through: You said that objective truth cannot lead one to the truth"

What I in fact said is that objective truth ALONE (forgive me i keep forgetting how to do italics in html) truth. This in and of itself is true as you yourself pointed out when you said " I don't mean that objective truth saves you itself." That being said, I will be the first to acknowledge that i misspoke here. What I should have written (and what my meaning was) is that objective reasoning cannot lead to absolute truth. As Kierkegaard taught this is because our knowledge of a historical event (i.e. the life, death, and resurrection of Christ) gained through objective reasoning can never be without the possibility of error. This margin of error for the most part is so small that, for the most part, we disregard it and can justifiably say that we are certain that Lincoln had a beard (for example). But, Kierkegaard points out that any true religious faith is infinitely interested in its object of faith (i.e. Christ) so objective reasoning cannot justify him in disregarding any possibility of error about the object of faith. This is because with things that we are moderately interested (the state of Lincoln's facial hair) we can overlook the slight possibility of error. But with things that are infintely dear to us and immeasureably important we cannot simply overlook any possibilty of error. So faith requires a leap beyond all evidence that cannot be justified by objective reasoning.
Faith is not reasonable, it is not playing the odds or hedging our bets , it is something that transcends reason. This is not to say that it is illogical, but simply that it is alogical. Short of becoming omniscient, we will not understand it. I believe love and hope both fall into this catagory of alogical virtue as well. But i will get to that at some other time.

Dan