Jews for Christmas?
Merry Christmas!
iggy
Saturday, December 24, 2005
Monday, December 19, 2005
How to dismantle an idolized Bono
I just received this from the Relative Magazine Newsletter. This is hard to even place on my blog as I love U2. Sometimes I am sure it is hard to remember that U2 is not a "Christian" band. Some members in U2 maybe or at least identify with Christianity or may even be Christians. Some in that band are not Christian at all. I will say that they are Christian influenced, and political.
Bono is a man. And among men he may be great. Yet, he is still a man and we must remember that though he may accomplishish many things, he cannot save us nor redeem us. Only Jesus can do that.
The reason I am reprinting this article is because too often we Emergents are accused of universalism, which is not true to what I have found. I think from the outside some confuse tolerance, listening and respect for others beliefs with universalism...
I do think that the Jews are our brothers, yet have denied Jesus as their messiah. Saying sound like I am against them, yet it is not so. I believe God has never left them out of His plan of redemption. His heart has always been for Israel.
I will say this though. Islam is not traceable to Ishmael as many seem to teach. For Ishmael is BLESSED of God. Ishmael is under the Abrahmic blessings. (Genesis 17) If one studies out the origins of Islam, there is no connection. Islam goes back to the nomadic tribes of the Black Stone (Mecca) and if one looks closely at scripture it is clear that Islam is associated with the worship of Baal and Dagon. These were the God's of the Philistines. I contend that Islam's Allah is not equated with the God of the OT. In fact he is the opposite.
The God of the OT/NT is ever revealing Himself. He desires to be known, and He desires relationship with His creation. Our God desires goodness to prevail. While the God of Islam claims to be unknowable and can on one hand do evil and the other do good. There is no reason as to his arbitrary actions. He only desires submission. He is the god of the sword.
Even looking superficially at the Bible and the Koran one can see the difference as to the God Who is Love, and the god who desires to please himself and could care less for those who follow him. The Koran has no reference to love anyone other than the god of Islam.
So, Bono can be one of the persons of the Year, yet if he is teaching that the God we serve as Christians is the same as Islam... he needs to study more.
Now, that being said, I agree in spirit with Bono. I agree that if these three religions claim to be religions of love, then we should get along in love. Though this article was sent via email connected with Relevant Magizine, I have added the link to Tara Leigh Cobble's site directly.
Blessings,
iggy
How to dismantle an Idolized Bono.
by Tara Leigh Cobble
Editors Note: Bono was recently named one of Time magazine's "Persons of the Year" for his humanitarian work and international efforts.
I,m pretty sure I won't get much opposition if I say that U2 is the greatest rock band of all time. When I scored two great seats to one of the shows at Madison Square Garden last month, I thought my life had reached its pinnacle.
It was a euphoric experience. During the first few songs, I stood, along with the rest of the stadium, as we pumped our fists into the air and sang along with every word. The energy in the air was emotionally overwhelming. And if you've never been to a U2 show, let me tell you that it was everything you'd ever expect it to be.
But it was also much, much more.
About five songs into their set, Bono stopped the show and strapped on a headband with writing on it. I stared up at the JumboTron to see that the handwritten lettering said: COEXIST.
Coexisting sounds like a great idea. I fully support the peaceful philanthropy that Bono has encouraged, and this seemed like another way that he was trying to spread the message.
Except, it started to feel like more than a political message. The "C" in "coexist" was the Islamic crescent moon, the "X" was the Star of David, and the "T" was the cross of Christ. Bono pointed at the symbols on his headband-first to the cross, then to the star, then to the crescent moon-and he began to repeat:
"Jesus, Jew, Mohammed-all true. Jesus, Jew, Mohammed-all true."
He repeated the words like a mantra, and some people even began to repeat it with him. I suddenly wanted to crawl out of my skin. Was Bono, my supposed brother in Christ, preaching some kind of universalism? In just a few seconds, I went from agreeing with him about Christlike "coexistence" to being creeped out by the ungodly, untrue thing he was saying. What's going on here? What if he believes that all ways are the same, and he just thinks of Christianity as his particular way? Aren't universalism and true Christianity mutually exclusive?
I've heard the urban legends of amazing things Bono has said about his faith, I've read the books, and I've peered deep into everything he's said hoping to find something that makes his beliefs clear. For years, I've adored him and clung to the notion that he is believer, too. After all, he identifies himself with Christianity, doesn't he?
When he stated that lie so boldly, it devastated me. It was, without question, the most disturbing experience of my life; I felt like I'd been covered in bile. As I looked around, I saw all the people standing and chanting with him-it was disgusting and beautiful all at once. Unity can be so enticing. It made me think of the one world religion and how that will probably look benign and beautiful from the outside, too. I even started to wonder if universalism just might be poised to be that religion. All these things were running through my head.
After the show, I ran into a friend who had been sitting in the back row. "What did you think of that headband thing?" I asked. "Well, I couldn't hear what he was saying because it was bouncing off the wall behind me, and I couldn't read the headband, because I wasn't near a JumboTron. But honestly, I felt like I was witnessing an antichrist." I stood frozen as she spoke. I'd had the same feeling.
Let me be clear: I'm not saying that Bono is the Antichrist. Perhaps he's just guilty of being overzealous about his politics. But I hope that if he is a believer, the Holy Spirit will convict him that equating Christianity with other religions is false prophecy. 2 Timothy 3 tells us to avoid people who have a form of godliness but deny the true power of God. And I believe that the most deceptive thing of all is to identify yourself with the truth and preach a lie.
For a long time after the show, I couldn't talk about it. And I still don't know what to think because I don't know Bono's heart. All I know is what he said from that stage and how it shook my footing. God used that to show me something ugly in myself that needed to be fixed. It felt like He was saying, "If you're looking to Bono, you're looking to the wrong place."
The reality is that Bono held too high a place in my heart. And I don't think I'm alone there. I've wrongly held him up as the heroic ideal-the cool representative for Christianity; he may have been my "Christian idol," but he was my idol nonetheless. And that's not OK. Yes, it should bother me to think that Bono might not be a believer; but it should not bother me any more than if a random guy on the street does not believe.
I pray for Bono more lately, and I pray for the hearts of the millions of people who he impacts on a daily basis. He is, without question, the most influential person in the world, and he has an unparalleled opportunity to speak the truth to the lost world. This year alone, he was nominated to be the president of the World Bank, and he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. And by the time the Vertigo Tour ends in April, it will have grossed twice as much as any political campaign anywhere, ever. If Bono has a saving faith in the one true God, I can only hope that he would speak the Truth without ambiguity. I pray that the name of Jesus would grace his lips, without being equated with Judaism or Islam or any other religion. And I’m praying that God will help me to put things in the right place in my heart.
Tara Leigh Cobble is an independent folk/rock artist who has spent the past five years playing at churches and colleges around the country. She lives in Nashville, but spends most of her time behind the wheel of her Toyota Camry.
Bono is a man. And among men he may be great. Yet, he is still a man and we must remember that though he may accomplishish many things, he cannot save us nor redeem us. Only Jesus can do that.
The reason I am reprinting this article is because too often we Emergents are accused of universalism, which is not true to what I have found. I think from the outside some confuse tolerance, listening and respect for others beliefs with universalism...
I do think that the Jews are our brothers, yet have denied Jesus as their messiah. Saying sound like I am against them, yet it is not so. I believe God has never left them out of His plan of redemption. His heart has always been for Israel.
I will say this though. Islam is not traceable to Ishmael as many seem to teach. For Ishmael is BLESSED of God. Ishmael is under the Abrahmic blessings. (Genesis 17) If one studies out the origins of Islam, there is no connection. Islam goes back to the nomadic tribes of the Black Stone (Mecca) and if one looks closely at scripture it is clear that Islam is associated with the worship of Baal and Dagon. These were the God's of the Philistines. I contend that Islam's Allah is not equated with the God of the OT. In fact he is the opposite.
The God of the OT/NT is ever revealing Himself. He desires to be known, and He desires relationship with His creation. Our God desires goodness to prevail. While the God of Islam claims to be unknowable and can on one hand do evil and the other do good. There is no reason as to his arbitrary actions. He only desires submission. He is the god of the sword.
Even looking superficially at the Bible and the Koran one can see the difference as to the God Who is Love, and the god who desires to please himself and could care less for those who follow him. The Koran has no reference to love anyone other than the god of Islam.
So, Bono can be one of the persons of the Year, yet if he is teaching that the God we serve as Christians is the same as Islam... he needs to study more.
Now, that being said, I agree in spirit with Bono. I agree that if these three religions claim to be religions of love, then we should get along in love. Though this article was sent via email connected with Relevant Magizine, I have added the link to Tara Leigh Cobble's site directly.
Blessings,
iggy
How to dismantle an Idolized Bono.
by Tara Leigh Cobble
Editors Note: Bono was recently named one of Time magazine's "Persons of the Year" for his humanitarian work and international efforts.
I,m pretty sure I won't get much opposition if I say that U2 is the greatest rock band of all time. When I scored two great seats to one of the shows at Madison Square Garden last month, I thought my life had reached its pinnacle.
It was a euphoric experience. During the first few songs, I stood, along with the rest of the stadium, as we pumped our fists into the air and sang along with every word. The energy in the air was emotionally overwhelming. And if you've never been to a U2 show, let me tell you that it was everything you'd ever expect it to be.
But it was also much, much more.
About five songs into their set, Bono stopped the show and strapped on a headband with writing on it. I stared up at the JumboTron to see that the handwritten lettering said: COEXIST.
Coexisting sounds like a great idea. I fully support the peaceful philanthropy that Bono has encouraged, and this seemed like another way that he was trying to spread the message.
Except, it started to feel like more than a political message. The "C" in "coexist" was the Islamic crescent moon, the "X" was the Star of David, and the "T" was the cross of Christ. Bono pointed at the symbols on his headband-first to the cross, then to the star, then to the crescent moon-and he began to repeat:
"Jesus, Jew, Mohammed-all true. Jesus, Jew, Mohammed-all true."
He repeated the words like a mantra, and some people even began to repeat it with him. I suddenly wanted to crawl out of my skin. Was Bono, my supposed brother in Christ, preaching some kind of universalism? In just a few seconds, I went from agreeing with him about Christlike "coexistence" to being creeped out by the ungodly, untrue thing he was saying. What's going on here? What if he believes that all ways are the same, and he just thinks of Christianity as his particular way? Aren't universalism and true Christianity mutually exclusive?
I've heard the urban legends of amazing things Bono has said about his faith, I've read the books, and I've peered deep into everything he's said hoping to find something that makes his beliefs clear. For years, I've adored him and clung to the notion that he is believer, too. After all, he identifies himself with Christianity, doesn't he?
When he stated that lie so boldly, it devastated me. It was, without question, the most disturbing experience of my life; I felt like I'd been covered in bile. As I looked around, I saw all the people standing and chanting with him-it was disgusting and beautiful all at once. Unity can be so enticing. It made me think of the one world religion and how that will probably look benign and beautiful from the outside, too. I even started to wonder if universalism just might be poised to be that religion. All these things were running through my head.
After the show, I ran into a friend who had been sitting in the back row. "What did you think of that headband thing?" I asked. "Well, I couldn't hear what he was saying because it was bouncing off the wall behind me, and I couldn't read the headband, because I wasn't near a JumboTron. But honestly, I felt like I was witnessing an antichrist." I stood frozen as she spoke. I'd had the same feeling.
Let me be clear: I'm not saying that Bono is the Antichrist. Perhaps he's just guilty of being overzealous about his politics. But I hope that if he is a believer, the Holy Spirit will convict him that equating Christianity with other religions is false prophecy. 2 Timothy 3 tells us to avoid people who have a form of godliness but deny the true power of God. And I believe that the most deceptive thing of all is to identify yourself with the truth and preach a lie.
For a long time after the show, I couldn't talk about it. And I still don't know what to think because I don't know Bono's heart. All I know is what he said from that stage and how it shook my footing. God used that to show me something ugly in myself that needed to be fixed. It felt like He was saying, "If you're looking to Bono, you're looking to the wrong place."
The reality is that Bono held too high a place in my heart. And I don't think I'm alone there. I've wrongly held him up as the heroic ideal-the cool representative for Christianity; he may have been my "Christian idol," but he was my idol nonetheless. And that's not OK. Yes, it should bother me to think that Bono might not be a believer; but it should not bother me any more than if a random guy on the street does not believe.
I pray for Bono more lately, and I pray for the hearts of the millions of people who he impacts on a daily basis. He is, without question, the most influential person in the world, and he has an unparalleled opportunity to speak the truth to the lost world. This year alone, he was nominated to be the president of the World Bank, and he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. And by the time the Vertigo Tour ends in April, it will have grossed twice as much as any political campaign anywhere, ever. If Bono has a saving faith in the one true God, I can only hope that he would speak the Truth without ambiguity. I pray that the name of Jesus would grace his lips, without being equated with Judaism or Islam or any other religion. And I’m praying that God will help me to put things in the right place in my heart.
Tara Leigh Cobble is an independent folk/rock artist who has spent the past five years playing at churches and colleges around the country. She lives in Nashville, but spends most of her time behind the wheel of her Toyota Camry.
Saturday, December 17, 2005
More continuing Conversation on TSKW
This was part of a conversation on Tall Skinny Kiwi
Jason is responding in our conversation about fundamentalism as being able to fit into the new paradigm. I have part of our earlier conversation here.
BETTER LATE THAN NEVER
On this present blog is a replica of a text that I tried to send as a letter to the editor of Christianity Today's on-line Editorial section . For some cause the letter was returned to my e-mail box . Being that I am borderline computer illiterate , I was unable to fix the sending process . So here I will mostly reproduce with some editing the letter and (perhaps) add some additional material . In the letter , I do defend open theism, though the main thrust as to why I'm obligated to reproduce the letter is to help debunk mysteriousness-ist doctrine !
The letter denounces the weird , bizarre murky sort of doctrine that tries to compromise deductive reason with the murky unwarranted notion that portrays God is somehow inherently mysterious (which is insulting to God) .
Dear Christianity Today ,
After reading the debate between apparent Fundamentalist: Chris Hall, and John Sanders , regarding open theism, I wanted to state that as I am a believer in Jesus I wish Mr.Chris Hall well, notwithstanding, I found a particular series of statements made by Chris Hall to be quite appalling , and illustrative of a rather weird brand of theology . Chris Hall.,like a number of Fundamentalists, couples the word : 'logic' with the word 'human' and puts together the phrase I've seen bandied about : the silly phrase "human logic" .
Logic is logic . The notion that there is a "human logic", separate from God's logic is bad theology . Deductive Logic is NOT a construct invented by man it is merely discovered by man . Logic pre-exists . As the Gospel of John chapter 1 verse 1 states,' In the Beginning was the Logos .' Logos which is loosely "translated" by the term ' word ' in English Bibles originally referred to a principle of order, and NOT a word in terms of literal phonetic speech . The term 'Logic' is derived from the same word as the term 'Logos' found in the beginning of the Gospel of John .
Some have claimed the Old Testament verse in Isaiah 55: 8, which quotes God as saying, 'Your ways are not my ways your thoughts are not my thoughts" somehow teaches that God has a supposed "different type of Logic" then so-called "human logic" . That interpretation , however, is completely unfounded . Isaiah 55:8 does NOT explicitly make any statement about God having any "different type of Logic" than the ones humans are familiar with . It would take more time to do full justice to why the verse should not be interpreted that way , but a clearer insight for a more plausible interpretation of the verse can be gained by reading the verse that is *immediately prior* : Isaiah 55:7 which states, ' Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him:and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon .'
A more plausible interpretation for Isaiah 55:8 is that God maintains an infinitely more noble moral standard than humans, inasmuch, as He is willing to show mercy to those who repent instead of holding a grudge, like humans have a tendency to do . That interpretation has a lot more plausibility, than the bizarre *interpretation* which claims that God has some inherently mysterious other sort of logic .
Mr.Chris Hall makes the quite weird and theologically flimsy statement ,
"Packer has warned me, both as his student in Vancouver and in many of his writings, to beware of draining the mystery out of Scripture in a misplaced desire for rational consistency."
There is NEVER any such state as "too much consistency"!!!!!! . Unless we are going to be anti-climatic about values and Truth, then we should always be willing to take the pursuit of consistency to extremes . Love of truth demands nothing less . Consistency is the foundation and the link between all the virtues--including virtues in the area of abstract thought, as well as action . To want to have a balance between consistency and even a little fuzzy thinking , is lazy-minded and quite frankly a bizarre approach ! I happen very much to agree with the New Testament verse which states, 'God is not a God of confusion, but a God of Peace ' . I also happen to agree with the verse in the epistle known as I John chapter 1 verse 5 which affirms that ' God is light and in him is no darkness at all .' (KJV) What is one of the primary properties of light ? It reveals : it shows the contours and boundaries of shapes and spaces --it makes that which is around it comprehensible .
Mr. Chris Hall should consider getting another mentor then that Mr.Packer fellow . Mr.Packer is NOT the spokesman for Jesus .
Mr.Chris Hall cites the verse in Deuteronomy which states , 'the secret things belong to the Lord ' . However, the verse in Deuteronomy does NOT explicitly tell the reader what sorts of subjects are included in 'the secret things' , thus it is presumptuous to presume that the relationship between Divine foreknowledge and the free will of created beings, is in any way included in what Deuteronomy calls "the secret things" .
Chris Hall goes on to say in the exchange with John Sanders ,
' Hence, I have learned to live with incompleteness, paradox, incomprehesibility, and deep mystery in my relationship with God .'
One of the worst misnomers ; one of the laziest words in the English language is the word 'paradox' . The word paradox is one of those weasal euphemisms like unto the practice of the politician who might refer to raising taxes as "revenue enhancement" . There are NO inherent paradoxes . For there to be an actual paradox there would have to be a demonstratable case of two or more statements which claim opposite propositions about the same aspect of the same context where each of the opposite propositions that are claimed are all confirmed . <----That has NOT happened ! The series of claims that many people tout as paradoxes are either cases of contradictions that have not been reconciled that are euphemistically called "paradoxes" , or are cases of statements that seem to have self-reference but which actually don't from a linguistic standpoint such as the "this sentence is false" routine , or are statements that involve other sometimes subtle fallacies of language .
It is quite lazy to appeal to the notion of so-called "paradox" . Furthermore, to *even partially* disparage the quest to have absolute consistency in regard to belief , is a very lazy minded / hazy-minded approach, and one that reminds me of postmodernists who also don't like logical consistency and also cults that dis-courage critical thinking in favor of an emotionalistic approach to belief . If people back in 1978 Guyana , had been more willing to insist on extreme consistency, instead of the *emotialistic approach promoted by Jim Jones* , then they would have rejected the advice of Rev . Jim Jones for the garbage it was and NOT been so willing to drink the poisoned cool-aid .
It is worthwhile to note that though Jesus in the Gospels does use a phrase that has been "translated" into English , "the mysteries of the Kingdom Of God" , a more plausible interpretation would be that the word that is rendered into English as the word "mysteries" refers to what might be referred to as 'in depth knowledge', and *NOT* at all some item that in inherently inscrutable or unknowable .
St.Paul, in a verse in the epistle to the Romans, when commenting on the relationship between God and the Gentiles , does make the statement , 'how unsearchable are his judgements, and his ways past finding out' (Romans 11:33 KJV ) . However, a case can be plausibly made that the statements refer narrowly to the resourcefullness of God in being able to reconcile Himself with nations , and would NOT necessarily be a verse which alleges God's plans in general are somehow inherently mysterious, nor is it necessarily a broad claim about mysteriousness being any inherently any attribute of God .
As a believer in Jesus , I find that when the opponents against open theism have to resort to invoking terms like "paradox" , and "mystery" and ,concurrently, disparage the quest for total consistency of thought regarding beliefs then the case against open theism is on flimsy ground !
Since I'm sending this e-mail I thought I'd mention two of the verses that those who are against open theism often cite and how they could be better interpreted in such a way that does not conflict with open theism .
Psalm 139 verse 4 David says of God , 'for there is not a word in my tounge but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it alltogether. (KJV) ' Many people who are against open theism presume that the verse indicates that David is claiming that God foreknows what David will say before he says it. However, the phrase 'word in my tounge' could just as well mean what David is saying in the present tense and NOT necessarily what David will say in the future .
Then there is Isaiah 46::10 which quotes God as saying that He is , ' Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying my counsel shall stand and I shall do all my pleasure. '
Many of the opponents of open theism have presumed that God is indicating that He predicts the actions of created beings in the verse, yet the verse could very well, instead, indicate that God predicts His Own Actions and what the ultimate results of what His Own Acts of Divine Intervention will be !
There are other verses that seem to be against open theism that could also be more judicially interpreted .
Regards ,
Jason Leary
Jason is responding in our conversation about fundamentalism as being able to fit into the new paradigm. I have part of our earlier conversation here.
BETTER LATE THAN NEVER
On this present blog is a replica of a text that I tried to send as a letter to the editor of Christianity Today's on-line Editorial section . For some cause the letter was returned to my e-mail box . Being that I am borderline computer illiterate , I was unable to fix the sending process . So here I will mostly reproduce with some editing the letter and (perhaps) add some additional material . In the letter , I do defend open theism, though the main thrust as to why I'm obligated to reproduce the letter is to help debunk mysteriousness-ist doctrine !
The letter denounces the weird , bizarre murky sort of doctrine that tries to compromise deductive reason with the murky unwarranted notion that portrays God is somehow inherently mysterious (which is insulting to God) .
Dear Christianity Today ,
After reading the debate between apparent Fundamentalist: Chris Hall, and John Sanders , regarding open theism, I wanted to state that as I am a believer in Jesus I wish Mr.Chris Hall well, notwithstanding, I found a particular series of statements made by Chris Hall to be quite appalling , and illustrative of a rather weird brand of theology . Chris Hall.,like a number of Fundamentalists, couples the word : 'logic' with the word 'human' and puts together the phrase I've seen bandied about : the silly phrase "human logic" .
Logic is logic . The notion that there is a "human logic", separate from God's logic is bad theology . Deductive Logic is NOT a construct invented by man it is merely discovered by man . Logic pre-exists . As the Gospel of John chapter 1 verse 1 states,' In the Beginning was the Logos .' Logos which is loosely "translated" by the term ' word ' in English Bibles originally referred to a principle of order, and NOT a word in terms of literal phonetic speech . The term 'Logic' is derived from the same word as the term 'Logos' found in the beginning of the Gospel of John .
Some have claimed the Old Testament verse in Isaiah 55: 8, which quotes God as saying, 'Your ways are not my ways your thoughts are not my thoughts" somehow teaches that God has a supposed "different type of Logic" then so-called "human logic" . That interpretation , however, is completely unfounded . Isaiah 55:8 does NOT explicitly make any statement about God having any "different type of Logic" than the ones humans are familiar with . It would take more time to do full justice to why the verse should not be interpreted that way , but a clearer insight for a more plausible interpretation of the verse can be gained by reading the verse that is *immediately prior* : Isaiah 55:7 which states, ' Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him:and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon .'
A more plausible interpretation for Isaiah 55:8 is that God maintains an infinitely more noble moral standard than humans, inasmuch, as He is willing to show mercy to those who repent instead of holding a grudge, like humans have a tendency to do . That interpretation has a lot more plausibility, than the bizarre *interpretation* which claims that God has some inherently mysterious other sort of logic .
Mr.Chris Hall makes the quite weird and theologically flimsy statement ,
"Packer has warned me, both as his student in Vancouver and in many of his writings, to beware of draining the mystery out of Scripture in a misplaced desire for rational consistency."
There is NEVER any such state as "too much consistency"!!!!!! . Unless we are going to be anti-climatic about values and Truth, then we should always be willing to take the pursuit of consistency to extremes . Love of truth demands nothing less . Consistency is the foundation and the link between all the virtues--including virtues in the area of abstract thought, as well as action . To want to have a balance between consistency and even a little fuzzy thinking , is lazy-minded and quite frankly a bizarre approach ! I happen very much to agree with the New Testament verse which states, 'God is not a God of confusion, but a God of Peace ' . I also happen to agree with the verse in the epistle known as I John chapter 1 verse 5 which affirms that ' God is light and in him is no darkness at all .' (KJV) What is one of the primary properties of light ? It reveals : it shows the contours and boundaries of shapes and spaces --it makes that which is around it comprehensible .
Mr. Chris Hall should consider getting another mentor then that Mr.Packer fellow . Mr.Packer is NOT the spokesman for Jesus .
Mr.Chris Hall cites the verse in Deuteronomy which states , 'the secret things belong to the Lord ' . However, the verse in Deuteronomy does NOT explicitly tell the reader what sorts of subjects are included in 'the secret things' , thus it is presumptuous to presume that the relationship between Divine foreknowledge and the free will of created beings, is in any way included in what Deuteronomy calls "the secret things" .
Chris Hall goes on to say in the exchange with John Sanders ,
' Hence, I have learned to live with incompleteness, paradox, incomprehesibility, and deep mystery in my relationship with God .'
One of the worst misnomers ; one of the laziest words in the English language is the word 'paradox' . The word paradox is one of those weasal euphemisms like unto the practice of the politician who might refer to raising taxes as "revenue enhancement" . There are NO inherent paradoxes . For there to be an actual paradox there would have to be a demonstratable case of two or more statements which claim opposite propositions about the same aspect of the same context where each of the opposite propositions that are claimed are all confirmed . <----That has NOT happened ! The series of claims that many people tout as paradoxes are either cases of contradictions that have not been reconciled that are euphemistically called "paradoxes" , or are cases of statements that seem to have self-reference but which actually don't from a linguistic standpoint such as the "this sentence is false" routine , or are statements that involve other sometimes subtle fallacies of language .
It is quite lazy to appeal to the notion of so-called "paradox" . Furthermore, to *even partially* disparage the quest to have absolute consistency in regard to belief , is a very lazy minded / hazy-minded approach, and one that reminds me of postmodernists who also don't like logical consistency and also cults that dis-courage critical thinking in favor of an emotionalistic approach to belief . If people back in 1978 Guyana , had been more willing to insist on extreme consistency, instead of the *emotialistic approach promoted by Jim Jones* , then they would have rejected the advice of Rev . Jim Jones for the garbage it was and NOT been so willing to drink the poisoned cool-aid .
It is worthwhile to note that though Jesus in the Gospels does use a phrase that has been "translated" into English , "the mysteries of the Kingdom Of God" , a more plausible interpretation would be that the word that is rendered into English as the word "mysteries" refers to what might be referred to as 'in depth knowledge', and *NOT* at all some item that in inherently inscrutable or unknowable .
St.Paul, in a verse in the epistle to the Romans, when commenting on the relationship between God and the Gentiles , does make the statement , 'how unsearchable are his judgements, and his ways past finding out' (Romans 11:33 KJV ) . However, a case can be plausibly made that the statements refer narrowly to the resourcefullness of God in being able to reconcile Himself with nations , and would NOT necessarily be a verse which alleges God's plans in general are somehow inherently mysterious, nor is it necessarily a broad claim about mysteriousness being any inherently any attribute of God .
As a believer in Jesus , I find that when the opponents against open theism have to resort to invoking terms like "paradox" , and "mystery" and ,concurrently, disparage the quest for total consistency of thought regarding beliefs then the case against open theism is on flimsy ground !
Since I'm sending this e-mail I thought I'd mention two of the verses that those who are against open theism often cite and how they could be better interpreted in such a way that does not conflict with open theism .
Psalm 139 verse 4 David says of God , 'for there is not a word in my tounge but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it alltogether. (KJV) ' Many people who are against open theism presume that the verse indicates that David is claiming that God foreknows what David will say before he says it. However, the phrase 'word in my tounge' could just as well mean what David is saying in the present tense and NOT necessarily what David will say in the future .
Then there is Isaiah 46::10 which quotes God as saying that He is , ' Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying my counsel shall stand and I shall do all my pleasure. '
Many of the opponents of open theism have presumed that God is indicating that He predicts the actions of created beings in the verse, yet the verse could very well, instead, indicate that God predicts His Own Actions and what the ultimate results of what His Own Acts of Divine Intervention will be !
There are other verses that seem to be against open theism that could also be more judicially interpreted .
Regards ,
Jason Leary
Mark needs prayer
Mark needs prayer.
I have a friend named Mark who is in the Band Spirit101. He has gone blind due to complications with diabetes. He has lost sight in one eye and has just had surgery to save the sight in his other eye.
Please pray as the Lord leads you for his sight to be restored.
Blessings,
iggy
I have a friend named Mark who is in the Band Spirit101. He has gone blind due to complications with diabetes. He has lost sight in one eye and has just had surgery to save the sight in his other eye.
Please pray as the Lord leads you for his sight to be restored.
Blessings,
iggy
Thursday, December 15, 2005
Merry happy Holimas-Christiday
Merry happy Holimas-Christiday
What a weird year….
On one hand we have the boycott the anti Christmas stores…. Sheesh… the poor stores trying to be all-inclusive are boycotted by angry Christians. Holiday trees are demanded to be called Christmas trees again…. My only thought on this is WWJB… Who Would Jesus Boycott??
Then as we are winning the war on getting Christmas back… we cancel it so we can have a “family day”. (Oye, my aching head)
My thoughts are on this…. Aren’t we, the Church, family?
I am not legalistic about the Sabbath, which by the way is Saturday. I see no problem in if schedule conflicts hit on a Sunday, rescheduling to another day to have service…. But get this…
I was listening to a local Rock station… not Christian by far. (Oh, just pray for me ok?) The DJ begins to say:
“ Have you heard that some churches are canceling Sunday services? What is up with that? I don’t go to church, but if I did, Christmas would be the day I would go!”
Hey, all I can say is the world is watching us… So be carefull what you boycott, and be sure after you get your way, don’t cancel Christmas.
My personal take on this is:
I really don’t care about the pagan origins in Christmas or Ishtar, I mean Easter, or whatever Holyday that may come up… I see that what the purpose of Christmas was to celebrate the incarnation of Jesus. If we miss THAT on Christmas then there is no Christmas. Let alone Christ in Christmas.
Cal Thomas had an interesting take on this. Basically summed he said, "Why boycott?"And went on to ask a better question, “Why do we want to associate Jesus’ birth with the crass commercialization of Christmas.
I was doing some shopping and began talking to a girl from Bulgaria. Yes Bulgaria, she moved to Montana with her husband. She talked of growing up under communism. I felt a little ashamed as I began to walk through the store and see things as if I just moved here from another country, especially one that was very poor. We are a nation of stuff. Stuff is the real thing that drives this country… buying stuff. Selling stuff…. I think we lost Christmas a long time ago.
I don’t want to sound cynical; I believe we still can redeem the spirit of Christmas by realizing what the greatest gift of all was. God became a man, born just as we are, growing up and learning (YES JESUS WAS GOD, SO GOD CAN LEARN! Stick that in you theology pipe and smoke it!) And the rest of the story I am sure you know.
Life is not about stuff, at least for a believer. Our life is not our own, we are His, bought and paid for by His blood.
Merry Christmas and happy holyday,
iggy
What a weird year….
On one hand we have the boycott the anti Christmas stores…. Sheesh… the poor stores trying to be all-inclusive are boycotted by angry Christians. Holiday trees are demanded to be called Christmas trees again…. My only thought on this is WWJB… Who Would Jesus Boycott??
Then as we are winning the war on getting Christmas back… we cancel it so we can have a “family day”. (Oye, my aching head)
My thoughts are on this…. Aren’t we, the Church, family?
I am not legalistic about the Sabbath, which by the way is Saturday. I see no problem in if schedule conflicts hit on a Sunday, rescheduling to another day to have service…. But get this…
I was listening to a local Rock station… not Christian by far. (Oh, just pray for me ok?) The DJ begins to say:
“ Have you heard that some churches are canceling Sunday services? What is up with that? I don’t go to church, but if I did, Christmas would be the day I would go!”
Hey, all I can say is the world is watching us… So be carefull what you boycott, and be sure after you get your way, don’t cancel Christmas.
My personal take on this is:
I really don’t care about the pagan origins in Christmas or Ishtar, I mean Easter, or whatever Holyday that may come up… I see that what the purpose of Christmas was to celebrate the incarnation of Jesus. If we miss THAT on Christmas then there is no Christmas. Let alone Christ in Christmas.
Cal Thomas had an interesting take on this. Basically summed he said, "Why boycott?"And went on to ask a better question, “Why do we want to associate Jesus’ birth with the crass commercialization of Christmas.
I was doing some shopping and began talking to a girl from Bulgaria. Yes Bulgaria, she moved to Montana with her husband. She talked of growing up under communism. I felt a little ashamed as I began to walk through the store and see things as if I just moved here from another country, especially one that was very poor. We are a nation of stuff. Stuff is the real thing that drives this country… buying stuff. Selling stuff…. I think we lost Christmas a long time ago.
I don’t want to sound cynical; I believe we still can redeem the spirit of Christmas by realizing what the greatest gift of all was. God became a man, born just as we are, growing up and learning (YES JESUS WAS GOD, SO GOD CAN LEARN! Stick that in you theology pipe and smoke it!) And the rest of the story I am sure you know.
Life is not about stuff, at least for a believer. Our life is not our own, we are His, bought and paid for by His blood.
Merry Christmas and happy holyday,
iggy
Tuesday, December 13, 2005
Meditations on Psalms 5
Psa 5:1 To the Chief Musician, for flutes. A Psalm of David. Give ear to my words, O Jehovah; consider my meditation.
Psa 5:2 Listen to the voice of my cry, my King and my God; for to You I will pray.
Psa 5:3 My voice You shall hear in the morning, O Jehovah; in the morning I will direct my prayer to You, and I will look up.
Psa 5:4 For You are not a God that enjoys wickedness; nor shall evil dwell with You.
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in Your sight. You hate all doers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6 You shall destroy those who speak lies; Jehovah will despise the bloody and deceitful man.
Psa 5:7 But I, in the abundance of Your grace, I will come into Your house; I will worship in Your fear toward Your holy temple.
Psa 5:8 Lead me, O Jehovah, in Your righteousness, because of my enemies; make Your way straight before my face.
Psa 5:9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is wickedness; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.
Psa 5:10 Hold them guilty, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions, for they have rebelled against You.
Psa 5:11 But let all who put their trust in You rejoice; let them always shout for joy, because You defend them. And let those who love Your name be joyful in You.
Psa 5:12 For You; O Jehovah, will bless the righteous; with favor You will surround him as with a shield.
How often do we think and maybe even say out loud, "God, can you hear me? Can you see how I feel?"
I see David doing just that here. It is like if someone said,” God listen to my words and the thought of my heart." Often we do not "cry" out if things are going well. So I see this as a time that David is not doing well. Also some think that this is soon after David gains back his throne and is still dealing with the treachery that is still present.
The morning seems to have an edge and crispness that no other time has. It is as if sound is amplified. I think of times I have been camping and wake up early and hear the birds crying out. I see this also as David is placing a priority of his time with God. This does not have to be in the early morning. I think any if not all times should be a time to focus. Here though David directs his prayer in the morning to God.
God is not as the other so called gods, which is true now as it was in David’s time. All other gods have some sort of path of rules, or they really do not desire relationship but desire to be unknown. The True God thinks this as wickedness. He desires to reveal Himself to those who seek Him. David warns that one who desires the wickedness of false gods and the things one does in their worship are despised.
David then is clear that it is God’s Grace that allows us to enter into God's house. God of the OT in the time of Abraham was called "The Fear" for to be in His presence brought fear. Why? Because it revealed who we really are. The apostle John tells us in his writings that the light will reveal all. As we stand in the Light of God Who is Jesus Himself, we stand in fear and horror to how far from God we really are. Yet, as we stand in the light trusting in the blood of Jesus, by His grace we are covered by His righteousness. Jesus is our sin covering, He is our white garment.
The wicked if they really realized who God is would tremble in great fear. And sadly many will find this true. I believe David understands grace, yet as one turns themselves over to wickedness, God must place them under His Authority and Judge Them.
We have a choice of being under authority or grace. Under the authority God will judge one according to what they have done in this life. If one is under Grace, they are free to rejoice as forgiveness and joy comes, as God Himself is our defense. In this God himself is our righteousness and protector of our eternal soul.
Blessings,
iggy
Psa 5:2 Listen to the voice of my cry, my King and my God; for to You I will pray.
Psa 5:3 My voice You shall hear in the morning, O Jehovah; in the morning I will direct my prayer to You, and I will look up.
Psa 5:4 For You are not a God that enjoys wickedness; nor shall evil dwell with You.
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in Your sight. You hate all doers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6 You shall destroy those who speak lies; Jehovah will despise the bloody and deceitful man.
Psa 5:7 But I, in the abundance of Your grace, I will come into Your house; I will worship in Your fear toward Your holy temple.
Psa 5:8 Lead me, O Jehovah, in Your righteousness, because of my enemies; make Your way straight before my face.
Psa 5:9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is wickedness; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.
Psa 5:10 Hold them guilty, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions, for they have rebelled against You.
Psa 5:11 But let all who put their trust in You rejoice; let them always shout for joy, because You defend them. And let those who love Your name be joyful in You.
Psa 5:12 For You; O Jehovah, will bless the righteous; with favor You will surround him as with a shield.
How often do we think and maybe even say out loud, "God, can you hear me? Can you see how I feel?"
I see David doing just that here. It is like if someone said,” God listen to my words and the thought of my heart." Often we do not "cry" out if things are going well. So I see this as a time that David is not doing well. Also some think that this is soon after David gains back his throne and is still dealing with the treachery that is still present.
The morning seems to have an edge and crispness that no other time has. It is as if sound is amplified. I think of times I have been camping and wake up early and hear the birds crying out. I see this also as David is placing a priority of his time with God. This does not have to be in the early morning. I think any if not all times should be a time to focus. Here though David directs his prayer in the morning to God.
God is not as the other so called gods, which is true now as it was in David’s time. All other gods have some sort of path of rules, or they really do not desire relationship but desire to be unknown. The True God thinks this as wickedness. He desires to reveal Himself to those who seek Him. David warns that one who desires the wickedness of false gods and the things one does in their worship are despised.
David then is clear that it is God’s Grace that allows us to enter into God's house. God of the OT in the time of Abraham was called "The Fear" for to be in His presence brought fear. Why? Because it revealed who we really are. The apostle John tells us in his writings that the light will reveal all. As we stand in the Light of God Who is Jesus Himself, we stand in fear and horror to how far from God we really are. Yet, as we stand in the light trusting in the blood of Jesus, by His grace we are covered by His righteousness. Jesus is our sin covering, He is our white garment.
The wicked if they really realized who God is would tremble in great fear. And sadly many will find this true. I believe David understands grace, yet as one turns themselves over to wickedness, God must place them under His Authority and Judge Them.
We have a choice of being under authority or grace. Under the authority God will judge one according to what they have done in this life. If one is under Grace, they are free to rejoice as forgiveness and joy comes, as God Himself is our defense. In this God himself is our righteousness and protector of our eternal soul.
Blessings,
iggy
Sunday, December 11, 2005
How real is real
How real is real.
There is a ton of talk in Christian circles about being real… I am all for that. To be anything less or try to be something more is to me being hypocritical. I often have seen this in a typical service… I have found two types of people.
Both are a result of not being real. This is often fostered by the theology taught at these churches.
1.Prosperity/ Word of Faith even in its mildest forms.
2.Legalism trying to be humble and over amplifying our sinful side.
I am way over simplifying this I know.
My real issue is this. Sometimes I think many use being “real” as an excuse not to grow. Growing as a Christian is not an option. If you is… You grow. That is the promise and the awesome truth that being a Christian is all about. God’s Seed, the Living Logos, planted in our hearts and growing in us to bear fruit for and through us.
I keep hearing things about emergent’s have potty mouth, so how does that fit in scripture where is says, “no unwholesome talk.” To tell you the truth I don’t know. I will say this. I swear. I swear a lot. Not as much as I used to, and maybe not even a bit compared to many others. I am not proud of this, but I face it as a reality in my life that must and is being dealt with in my faith.
I applaud those who seek being real and not putting on airs about being human with all it flaws, though I must say this. I am a Saint, not by what I have done, but by the works of Christ. I was once a worm… but now I am a butterfly, a bit on the ragged side and not yet having spread my wings fully. That is what the Bible tells us, and though it is hard, I believe it.
If one thinks they can still be who they were before coming to Christ, I want to say you are sadly mistaken. You are no longer in charge of your life… that is God’s dept. and really he has the say as to what His Will and Purpose is for your life here and in eternity.
Don’t think going forward and saying a prayer and even speaking in tongues or what ever means you are saved. These things do not save you, nor what you believe will save you. It is the person of Jesus who saves, and it is in Whom you believe that will save you. Being a Christian is not about doing, but about being… if you are being, then the things God wants done will get done. So be who you are in Christ.
If you are trying to be a Christian….STOP!!!!! If you are one you are one, there is no need to try. Be and Grow. If you are not one then trying is not going to get you closer to being saved, you will only be one who gets burned by the earthly, worldly church, or you will become one of the modern day Pharisees. Either way, your path will only lead you to Hell.
I believe in Hell, yet Hell is not my motivating factor… It is God’s Love that motivates me. I am not of the condemned so I really don’t think of Hell. But, I will say this, when I think of the unsaved friends I have. Those who are not in Christ and without knowing it are heading to Hell, I am filled with fear. For I know I do not love enough to sometimes stand up and speak of the love of God to them.
Again, this is not about condemnation, but about growth. The more we grow I believe the more we see. The more we see, the more we see we are inadequate to do the things God calls us to do. This allows us to humble ourselves and lean into Jesus to get the job done. For it is God Who makes things grow, and our job is to get outof the way to let Him be the Doer.
Now, one last thing. I am not condemning you or any one who my have potty mouth. I even think at times a swear word is “appropriate” in some situations as it allows the person to release and vent a bit to get a grip and refocus. Not the best way, but it has some affect. Each of us must understand that we are not just a Christian for our own benefit, but for the benefit of the whole world. In this we have a responsibility to be consistent to who we are and Whom we identify with. If our identity is in this world… swear your blanking face off, who really cares. If your identity is in Christ, then be accordingly consistent with who you are… does Jesus use foul language? I see no evidence. (Though I think is you want to argue with me your best case is some of the OT prophets, if you get into the original language it can get a bit rough at times.)
Again as I mean is think before we speak. If Jesus is speaking through me, would He use the language I may choose?
Blessings,
iggy
There is a ton of talk in Christian circles about being real… I am all for that. To be anything less or try to be something more is to me being hypocritical. I often have seen this in a typical service… I have found two types of people.
- “How are you doing?”
- “How are you?”
Both are a result of not being real. This is often fostered by the theology taught at these churches.
1.Prosperity/ Word of Faith even in its mildest forms.
2.Legalism trying to be humble and over amplifying our sinful side.
I am way over simplifying this I know.
My real issue is this. Sometimes I think many use being “real” as an excuse not to grow. Growing as a Christian is not an option. If you is… You grow. That is the promise and the awesome truth that being a Christian is all about. God’s Seed, the Living Logos, planted in our hearts and growing in us to bear fruit for and through us.
I keep hearing things about emergent’s have potty mouth, so how does that fit in scripture where is says, “no unwholesome talk.” To tell you the truth I don’t know. I will say this. I swear. I swear a lot. Not as much as I used to, and maybe not even a bit compared to many others. I am not proud of this, but I face it as a reality in my life that must and is being dealt with in my faith.
I applaud those who seek being real and not putting on airs about being human with all it flaws, though I must say this. I am a Saint, not by what I have done, but by the works of Christ. I was once a worm… but now I am a butterfly, a bit on the ragged side and not yet having spread my wings fully. That is what the Bible tells us, and though it is hard, I believe it.
If one thinks they can still be who they were before coming to Christ, I want to say you are sadly mistaken. You are no longer in charge of your life… that is God’s dept. and really he has the say as to what His Will and Purpose is for your life here and in eternity.
Don’t think going forward and saying a prayer and even speaking in tongues or what ever means you are saved. These things do not save you, nor what you believe will save you. It is the person of Jesus who saves, and it is in Whom you believe that will save you. Being a Christian is not about doing, but about being… if you are being, then the things God wants done will get done. So be who you are in Christ.
If you are trying to be a Christian….STOP!!!!! If you are one you are one, there is no need to try. Be and Grow. If you are not one then trying is not going to get you closer to being saved, you will only be one who gets burned by the earthly, worldly church, or you will become one of the modern day Pharisees. Either way, your path will only lead you to Hell.
I believe in Hell, yet Hell is not my motivating factor… It is God’s Love that motivates me. I am not of the condemned so I really don’t think of Hell. But, I will say this, when I think of the unsaved friends I have. Those who are not in Christ and without knowing it are heading to Hell, I am filled with fear. For I know I do not love enough to sometimes stand up and speak of the love of God to them.
Again, this is not about condemnation, but about growth. The more we grow I believe the more we see. The more we see, the more we see we are inadequate to do the things God calls us to do. This allows us to humble ourselves and lean into Jesus to get the job done. For it is God Who makes things grow, and our job is to get outof the way to let Him be the Doer.
Now, one last thing. I am not condemning you or any one who my have potty mouth. I even think at times a swear word is “appropriate” in some situations as it allows the person to release and vent a bit to get a grip and refocus. Not the best way, but it has some affect. Each of us must understand that we are not just a Christian for our own benefit, but for the benefit of the whole world. In this we have a responsibility to be consistent to who we are and Whom we identify with. If our identity is in this world… swear your blanking face off, who really cares. If your identity is in Christ, then be accordingly consistent with who you are… does Jesus use foul language? I see no evidence. (Though I think is you want to argue with me your best case is some of the OT prophets, if you get into the original language it can get a bit rough at times.)
Again as I mean is think before we speak. If Jesus is speaking through me, would He use the language I may choose?
Blessings,
iggy
Sunday, December 04, 2005
Wednesday, November 30, 2005
the hidden Gospel in Genesis 5
One of my favorite teachers is Chuck Missler. http://www.khouse.org/
One of his teachings shows that the Gospel is taught in Genesis 5… from the names of the 10 mentioned from Adam to Noah. What a blessing to see that God’s plan has been to send His Son from Adam on.
Blessings,
iggy
Genealogy of Genesis 5
Adam Man (is)
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow; (but)
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The despairing
Noah Comfort, Rest
One of his teachings shows that the Gospel is taught in Genesis 5… from the names of the 10 mentioned from Adam to Noah. What a blessing to see that God’s plan has been to send His Son from Adam on.
Blessings,
iggy
Genealogy of Genesis 5
Adam Man (is)
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow; (but)
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The despairing
Noah Comfort, Rest
Thoughts on Psalms 4
Thoughts on Psalms 4
Psa 4:1 To the Chief Musician, for stringed instruments. A Psalm of David. Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness; You gave room to me in trouble; have mercy on me, and hear my prayer.
Psa 4:2 O sons of men, how long will you turn My glory into shame? Will you love vanity and seek after a lie?
Selah.
Psa 4:3 But know that Jehovah has set apart the godly for Himself. Jehovah hears when I call to Him.
Psa 4:4 Tremble, and sin not; speak within your own heart on your bed and be still. Selah.
Psa 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and trust in Jehovah.
Psa 4:6 There are many who say, Who will show us any good? Jehovah, lift up the light of Your face on us.
Psa 4:7 You have put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their grain and their wine increased.
Psa 4:8 I will lie down, both in peace and in sleep. For You alone, Jehovah, make me dwell in safety.
One must call on the Lord to have Him listen. Our cries can be in many forms, be out of fear, lamentation, anger, triumph and of course love.
David cries out to those who mock God to say, “How long will you turn my Glory into shame?” God has even done something even greater… He has turned Himself, through His Son… to be both our shame and our Glory. Jesus on the cross to take our shame, to cause us to humble our hearts and realize how much God loves and how far He will go to show us His love.
David has just gone through hiding for his life from his own son… yet God overcame David's son Absalom. Though David lost his son… he has gained more confidence in God’s ability to take on the causes of those who follow Him. In fact David revels in it! We need to realize God lost a Son, Who because He was perfect and without sin, gave God many Sons and Daughters! In this we should revel in!
In many ways if the world really understood who we are in Christ They would be trembling in fear… Yet, as scripture tells us, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone”. (Psalms 118:22)
Jesus follows this scripture with: "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.” (Matt 21:43)
We are to offer sacrifices…. Or as Romans 12:1 says, “Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.”As we offer ourselves as living sacrifices, God will radiate His Glory (Jesus) on those who mock. In this radiance we will find blessing greater than any worldly thing.
"Psa 4:7 You have put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their grain and their wine increased."
We will also gain the blessing of a good conscience, with peace and in sleep, knowing God's got our back.
"Psa 4:8 I will lie down, both in peace and in sleep. For You alone, Jehovah, make me dwell in safety."
We eternally dwell in Christ Himself... for He is Life Eternal. In Him we have His protection. I will say this, do not think this is just physical protection here on earth... this is much greater than that. It is Eternal Protection. It is the salvation of our souls for all eternity. We may lose our lives here on earth, but we will not lose all, but gain more, for we gain Christ Himself.
Blessings,
iggy
Psa 4:1 To the Chief Musician, for stringed instruments. A Psalm of David. Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness; You gave room to me in trouble; have mercy on me, and hear my prayer.
Psa 4:2 O sons of men, how long will you turn My glory into shame? Will you love vanity and seek after a lie?
Selah.
Psa 4:3 But know that Jehovah has set apart the godly for Himself. Jehovah hears when I call to Him.
Psa 4:4 Tremble, and sin not; speak within your own heart on your bed and be still. Selah.
Psa 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and trust in Jehovah.
Psa 4:6 There are many who say, Who will show us any good? Jehovah, lift up the light of Your face on us.
Psa 4:7 You have put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their grain and their wine increased.
Psa 4:8 I will lie down, both in peace and in sleep. For You alone, Jehovah, make me dwell in safety.
One must call on the Lord to have Him listen. Our cries can be in many forms, be out of fear, lamentation, anger, triumph and of course love.
David cries out to those who mock God to say, “How long will you turn my Glory into shame?” God has even done something even greater… He has turned Himself, through His Son… to be both our shame and our Glory. Jesus on the cross to take our shame, to cause us to humble our hearts and realize how much God loves and how far He will go to show us His love.
David has just gone through hiding for his life from his own son… yet God overcame David's son Absalom. Though David lost his son… he has gained more confidence in God’s ability to take on the causes of those who follow Him. In fact David revels in it! We need to realize God lost a Son, Who because He was perfect and without sin, gave God many Sons and Daughters! In this we should revel in!
In many ways if the world really understood who we are in Christ They would be trembling in fear… Yet, as scripture tells us, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone”. (Psalms 118:22)
Jesus follows this scripture with: "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.” (Matt 21:43)
We are to offer sacrifices…. Or as Romans 12:1 says, “Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.”As we offer ourselves as living sacrifices, God will radiate His Glory (Jesus) on those who mock. In this radiance we will find blessing greater than any worldly thing.
"Psa 4:7 You have put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their grain and their wine increased."
We will also gain the blessing of a good conscience, with peace and in sleep, knowing God's got our back.
"Psa 4:8 I will lie down, both in peace and in sleep. For You alone, Jehovah, make me dwell in safety."
We eternally dwell in Christ Himself... for He is Life Eternal. In Him we have His protection. I will say this, do not think this is just physical protection here on earth... this is much greater than that. It is Eternal Protection. It is the salvation of our souls for all eternity. We may lose our lives here on earth, but we will not lose all, but gain more, for we gain Christ Himself.
Blessings,
iggy
Saturday, November 26, 2005
Birthday musings
Birthday musings.
41 years old…. How did that happen? To make matters worse I ran into a couple of high school classmates last night while we were watching the local parade. They looked much the same… I mean I recognized them and all. They just seemed…. Older.
BTW, I remember the parades having real floats with paper and chicken wire… so many last night just seemed to be white paper and people sitting and waving… a bit boring… but then they threw candy.
It is a tradition that as the paraders walk some through candy to the kids. The kids start on the sidewalk, but by the end of the parade are practically out in the parade itself. It is a bit fun to watch as the candy is thrown and the kids and some adult scramble to get it. I did find it a bit ironic that here in America we throw candy to the gutter for the kids… and in so many other countries kids get their drinking water out of the sew running down the streets. For some reason it seemed… weird.
Ciana stayed with Nana, while Fischer and I watched. TES was in the parade and they were supposed to dance around the Christmas tree…. then the float showed up late and the music didn’t work. The people in front of them were moving too fast and the people behind them too slow… there they were by themselves looking like they were taking their Christmas tree for a walk…. Errr run. Sad but a bit funny. TES was saying, “Never again!”
Oh, yeah… 41 years old today. It is a bit weird. I could handle 40, but this one year more just seems to scream, “WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH YOUR LIFE?”
On this date:
They entered King Tut’s tomb.
Birthdates which occurred on November 26:
- 1607 John Harvard England, clergyman/scholar, major benefactor to Harvard University (library & half his estate)
- 1731 William Cowper England, preromantic poet (His Task)
- 1792 Sarah Moore Grimk‚ American antislavery, women's rights advocate
- 1832 Mary Edwards Walker US, doctor/women's rights leader
- 1857 Ferdinand de Saussure Switzerland, linguist (Cours de Laguistique Generale)
- 1876 Willis Haviland Carrier developed air-conditioning equipment
- 1892 Joe Guyon NFL halfback (Canton, Cleveland, Oorang, Rock I, etc)
- 1894 Norbert Wiener US, mathematician/discovered cybernetics
- 19-- Elizabeth Savage Pittsburgh PA, actress (Gwyneth-Loving)
- 1902 Alberto Morin PR, actor (Armando-Dallas)
- 1905 Emlyn Williams Wales, actor/playwright (David Copperfield)
- 1907 Frances Dee US actress (Of Human Bondage)
- 1910 Cyril Cusack South Africa, actress (Day of the Jackal)
- 1912 Eric Sevareid Velva ND, newscaster (CBS Weekend News)
- 1912 Eugene Ionesco France, dramatist (Rhinoceros)
- 1913 Foy Draper US, relay runner (Olympic-gold-1936)
- 1915 Earl Wild Pittsburgh PA, pianist (Caesar's Hour, NBC Symphony 1942)
- 1922 Adele Jergens Brooklyn NY, actress (Dark Past, Fuller Brush Man)
- 1922 Charles M Schulz cartoonist (Peanuts)
- 1924 George Segal NY, sculptor lifelike mixed-media figures (Bus Driver)
- 1925 Eugene Istomin NYC, pianist (Leventritt Award-1943)
- 1925 Linda Hunt Morriston NJ, actress (Bostonians, Eleni, Silverado)
- 1927 John Carter Center Ridge Ark, actor (Max-Falcon Crest)
- 1929 Betta St John Hawthorne CA, actress (Corridors of Blood)
- 1931 Adolfo Perez Esquivel Buenos Argentina, (1980 Nobel Peace Prize)
- 1931 Giuliana Chenal-Minuzzo Italy, downhill skier (Olympic-bronze-1952)
- 1933 Robert Goulet Lawrence MA, singer/actor (Camelot, Naked Gun 2«)
- 1934 Ludmila Shevtsova USSR, 800m runner (Olympic-gold-1960)
- 1935 Marian Mercer Akron Ohio, actress/singer (Dean Martin Show)
- 1937 Boris Yegorov cosmonaut (Voskhod 1)
- 1937 Leo Lacroix France, skier (Olympic-silver-1964)
- 1938 Rich Little Ottawa Canada, impressionist/actor (Love on a Rooftop)
- 1938 Tina Turner [Anna Mae Bullock], Brownsville TX, singer (Proud Mary)
- 1942 Olivia Cole Memphis TN, actress (Roots, Szysznyk)
- 1943 Jan Stenerud Norway, NFL place kicker (Kansas City Chiefs)
- 1945 John McVie rocker (Fleetwood Mac-Rumours, Tusk)
- 1945 Mikhail Woronin USSR, gymnast (Olympic-2 gold/4 silver/bronze-1968)
- 1948 Galina Prozumenschikova USSR, 200m backstroke (Olympic-gold-1964)
- 1952 Wendy Turnbell Australia, tennis player (1979,82 US Opens Double)
- 1959 Jamie Rose NYC, actress (Susan Birch-St Elsewhere, Falcon Crest)
- 1961 Marcy Walker actress (All My Children, Eden-Santa Barbara)
- 1963 Allyson Rice-Taylor actress (Connor-As the World Turns)
- 1981 Jamie Fiske liver transplant recipient
Really this is a boring list…..
(image placeholder)
Deaths which occurred on November 26: - 1883 Sojourner Truth abolitionist, women's rights advocate, dies
- 1939 James Naismith Basketball inventor, dies
- 1970 B O Davis Sr 1st black general, dies at 93 in Chicago
- 1973 Albert DiSalvo Boston strangler, stabbed
- 1980 Rachael Roberts actress, dies at age 53
- 1982 Dan Tobin actor (I Married Joan, My Favorite Martian), dies at 73
- 1982 Robert Coote actor (Timmy-Rogues, Theodore-Nero Wolfe), dies at 73
- 1985 Ransom Sherman comedian (Father of the Bride), dies at 87
- 1986 Scatman Crothers actor (Louie-Chico & the Man), dies at 76
For November 26
EVENTS
Pelagius II becomes Pope
When assistance from Emperor Tiberius II of Byzantium was not forthcoming, Pelagius convinced the Christian Franks to defend Rome from encroaching Lombards. He attempted to end a schism in the Church over the Three Chapters Controversy and began a controversy of his own when St. John IV the Faster, bishop of Constantinople, assumed the title of "ecumenical patriarch" (a position that made him the equal of Pelagius, if not his superior). Pelagius was also responsible for building projects in Rome and turned his home into a hospital that was of great assistance when the city was struck by a disastrous flood. He himself died of the plague.
Manson family member Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme found guilty of attempting to assassinate President Ford. It is unclear why anyone would want to assassinate such an uninteresting president.
Sex Pistols single Anarchy in the UK released. The song later appeared on Never Mind the Bollocks. Sadly, it has yet to be equalled.
Blessings,
iggy
Wednesday, November 23, 2005
Baby Got Book
Hey, does your baby got Book?
Thanks to =) Bnpositive’s Blog for pointing me to this...
Blessings,
iggy
Thanks to =) Bnpositive’s Blog for pointing me to this...
Blessings,
iggy
Sam Is Gone...
Sam is/was the ugliest dog... Here is a video blurb about him.
I have in a way become obsessed with the story about this dog. I have written at least two posts if not more about him. sadly Sam had to be euthanized yesterday. His story was about being unloved to redeemed by love.
We will miss you Sam
blessings,
iggy
I have in a way become obsessed with the story about this dog. I have written at least two posts if not more about him. sadly Sam had to be euthanized yesterday. His story was about being unloved to redeemed by love.
We will miss you Sam
blessings,
iggy
Tuesday, November 22, 2005
My Other Blog is a Rock station. A shameless plug
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This is a post from my Online Christian station... iggyROCKS! From the iggyROCKS! blog.
playing classic, new, and independent Christian artist.
Blessings,
iggy
Sunday, November 20, 2005
Looking at a slice of Laodicea
Looking at a slice of Laodicea
Rev 3:14. "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16. So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17. You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
20. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
This is often called the church of this age… I don’t think that is right but that is not what this particular post is about.
I think if a blogger names the blog “a slice of Laodicea” they are trying to point out that there is something wrong in today’s church. In that I whole-heartedly agree. The thing is if you look and read some of the things on “Ingrid” it does not take long to see that she is judgmental and really goes out of her way to find these herasies she loves to write about. I am not opposed to exposing people whom I think are hypocrites… I think it is very obvious as you read anything she writes what her true character is.
The ironic thing is if you look at the text from which she take her blog’s name, you find some interesting things I think she could learn from if she took any time to actually read the Bible and see what it does say.
First of this passage is a salvation passage… not about condemnation. You see if you notice, God is talking to a group of people who have not fully made up their mind for Jesus. They are neither hot or cold… they are neither for Him or against Him. So, what choice does Jesus have but to press the issue and tell them if one does not come fully to conversion they are as an unbeliever. Thus Jesus says, “ I will spew you out”. Then Jesus goes into the problem that has blind sided them. I think this is the issue in many modern churchs… that is money.
I am not anti money, nor anti rich. I do not think as a Christian one must be poor nor do I think Jesus was poor…. I think He was without need as He depended on His Father to suply all His needs. The problem of the church of Laodocia was they were rich and had no humility about it. I was listening to one of the MP3’s from the Generous Orthodoxy Conference in Seatle. In it one of the speakers (Sorry as I cannot remember who the speaker was) was talking about how there was a man that he knew who was very rich who did not grasp the concept of generosity. He could not understand how one who was poor who gave actually gave more out of their lack was more generous then when he gave the grand amount ($25,000) he was giving. He thought that the more you gave meant you were more generous, yet to him that amount was really not a sacrifice at all.
The people of Laodicea had this problem. They had much so had trouble seeing they had any real need. They lack humilty to ask for help. They lacked the ability to turn to Jesus and ask Him to help with anything.
Humilty is what is lacking in the people like Ingrid, Paul Proctors blogs. Humility is greatly shown throughout the emergent people that I have met. In fact I see Christ in more of the people in the emergent than I have in most modern churches I have been to and that is what attracted me the most. Without humilty there is no way one can learn and be changed by God. Humility opens the door to be clothed in the fine linen of Christ to cover our shame. We can have the gold more pure than any gold on this earthly wrold, and salve to open our eye to thing eternally important.
So that is what I am calling out for from anyone who claims Christ as their Lord, Saviour, friend, brother. Let us all bend our knees and will to open our heart to Jesus. That is why Jesus says in the last part of the letter t the Laodieans.
“19. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
20. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
So are you listening? Follow Jesus and learn to live in LOVE, or follow Proctor and gamble…. (Groan… yeah I know that was bad {grin})
BTW Laodicea really did not account for much in history… in fact it came to ruin rather quickly and the only real historical significance is the warning written in the book of Revelation.
Blessings,
iggy
Technorati tags:
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Rev 3:14. "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16. So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17. You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
20. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
This is often called the church of this age… I don’t think that is right but that is not what this particular post is about.
I think if a blogger names the blog “a slice of Laodicea” they are trying to point out that there is something wrong in today’s church. In that I whole-heartedly agree. The thing is if you look and read some of the things on “Ingrid” it does not take long to see that she is judgmental and really goes out of her way to find these herasies she loves to write about. I am not opposed to exposing people whom I think are hypocrites… I think it is very obvious as you read anything she writes what her true character is.
The ironic thing is if you look at the text from which she take her blog’s name, you find some interesting things I think she could learn from if she took any time to actually read the Bible and see what it does say.
First of this passage is a salvation passage… not about condemnation. You see if you notice, God is talking to a group of people who have not fully made up their mind for Jesus. They are neither hot or cold… they are neither for Him or against Him. So, what choice does Jesus have but to press the issue and tell them if one does not come fully to conversion they are as an unbeliever. Thus Jesus says, “ I will spew you out”. Then Jesus goes into the problem that has blind sided them. I think this is the issue in many modern churchs… that is money.
I am not anti money, nor anti rich. I do not think as a Christian one must be poor nor do I think Jesus was poor…. I think He was without need as He depended on His Father to suply all His needs. The problem of the church of Laodocia was they were rich and had no humility about it. I was listening to one of the MP3’s from the Generous Orthodoxy Conference in Seatle. In it one of the speakers (Sorry as I cannot remember who the speaker was) was talking about how there was a man that he knew who was very rich who did not grasp the concept of generosity. He could not understand how one who was poor who gave actually gave more out of their lack was more generous then when he gave the grand amount ($25,000) he was giving. He thought that the more you gave meant you were more generous, yet to him that amount was really not a sacrifice at all.
The people of Laodicea had this problem. They had much so had trouble seeing they had any real need. They lack humilty to ask for help. They lacked the ability to turn to Jesus and ask Him to help with anything.
Humilty is what is lacking in the people like Ingrid, Paul Proctors blogs. Humility is greatly shown throughout the emergent people that I have met. In fact I see Christ in more of the people in the emergent than I have in most modern churches I have been to and that is what attracted me the most. Without humilty there is no way one can learn and be changed by God. Humility opens the door to be clothed in the fine linen of Christ to cover our shame. We can have the gold more pure than any gold on this earthly wrold, and salve to open our eye to thing eternally important.
So that is what I am calling out for from anyone who claims Christ as their Lord, Saviour, friend, brother. Let us all bend our knees and will to open our heart to Jesus. That is why Jesus says in the last part of the letter t the Laodieans.
“19. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
20. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
So are you listening? Follow Jesus and learn to live in LOVE, or follow Proctor and gamble…. (Groan… yeah I know that was bad {grin})
BTW Laodicea really did not account for much in history… in fact it came to ruin rather quickly and the only real historical significance is the warning written in the book of Revelation.
Blessings,
iggy
Technorati tags:
"Carlos Shelton", Accuser of the brethren, Articles, beware, Beyond emerging church, Beyond emerging thought, Beyond propositional truth, Bible, Billings Mt, Blessings, Christian, Christianity, Church, Conversation, Critics, Doctrine, Doctrines of men, Emerging church, Emerging conversation, Emerging thought, Fellowship, Follower of Christ, Go , God, Grace, Holy Spirit, iggy, iggynation, In Christ, Liar, Living , Living sacrifice, Missing the point, Modernity, One, Philosophy-religion , Post-modernity, Postmodern, Religious spirit, SBC, Steve Camp, The Word, Theology, Thoughts , Truth, Truth Abides, Values, Walk in the Spirit, Word of Mouth Ministries
Thursday, November 17, 2005
Dan and iggy converse
This was originally a comment under the last post called "Don't Call me brother".
I decided to bring it our as a post on it's own as Dan and I have begun quite an interesting dialog.
Enjoy.
Blessings,
iggy
At Thursday, November 17, 2005 12:07:20 PM, Dan said...As I have said before, I have looked at the emrgent church movement and I am not going to say that everything about it is bad. But I do think that it is far to volatile for me to consider it "good." I don't want to hijack this thread so if it seems that I am doing so, we can move this to a different forum. My main problems with the emergent church are as follows
1) its constant attempts to escape definition and remove itself from any one authority makes it impossible to take seriously. For example, to call something a movement and an open non judgemental conversation seems pretty contradictory. In order to be a movement there has to be a point you are moving toward. So it follows that there are paths that are judged insufficient because they do not lead to that point.
2) The cursory treatment of church history and theology given by emergents. Brian McLaren is notorious for this. His treatment of baptism in Generous Orthodoxy is particularly bad not only for his lack of sources sited, but also the lack of compensation for his obvious bias. I'm not sure which bothered me more in this particular section, the fact that his history was so wrong or the fact that he summed up the history of Christian baptism in little over a paragraph.
3) Lacking a sense of the gravity of the subjects being dealt with. I realize that the emergent conversation is meant to be open and all, but more emergents need to realize that they are tossing around the beliefs that Christians have spent their lives following and perhaps even died for like an old hat. With Mclaren again as an example, refering to everything as a sacrament and expecting all of chrisendom to jump on the bandwagon is insulting. Imaging walking up to a priest and telling him that the eucharist is no more a sacrament than "looking at the smile of a down syndrome child."
4) The lack of solid scholarly work coming from the emergent movement. Much of what I have read from emergents has been much more in the vain of the evangelical machine that they are trying to escape than truly scholarly work. I realize that it is a young movement and is a victim of the gen x and y disconnect with the previous generations leaving it severed from the traditions and knowedge that came before, but if this movement wants to become something truly substantial, it needs to bridge that gap.
I'm going to stop here for now because this is getting long.
Again sorry for the possible hijack.
Dan,
Again welcome.
I will try to answer in regards to your post here...
Which is better. A stale, possible wrong, doctrine, or the living Christ?
1. In fact we have removed ourseslves from the authority such as Ingrid and Paul Proctors... If you read most church memberhsip rules they will simply read.
a. beleive in Christ Jesus
b. Acknowledge His authority
Here is the issue this would include a demon in the fellowship as they do this. What seperates us from a demon is LOVE and a relationship based on LOVE. Out of this LOVE come authority, but again it is tempored with LOVE.
2. You might be surprised as I have not read Brians last book, nor do I consider Brian my personal spokesman for my personal doctrine. I think he has tried to bridge the gap, that I personally beleive is past being built, and/or he is still caught in the old paridgm and has not caught that the bridge is Jesus Himself with which we all must cross as He instructs us to build it. I am sure Brian's view on Baptism is provoking. Yet, you might be surprised as the Church of Christ has many emergent's whom I disagree with over their view on baptism, yet I still fellowship with them as brothers. As I said there are Calvinist, Open Theist, and Armenians and of course an iggy. haha. Yet we all seem to be able to converse without the type of attitude that is prevelant of modernism that is "me right/you wrong thinking. In fact I believe Christianity transends right wrong thinking and focuses on what is good... as in the Romans passage which Paul struggle between not doing "good" and doing "good" as opposed to doind right and wrong.
3. My friend have you ever read any Martin Luthers writings? they are hillariously witty and contain some of the best insights of a beleive one can read. Martin Luther had a sense of humor. Actually to say this as an accusation, seems to show your lack of the very journey many emergents have walked. I for one have struggled deeply and prayed hard over many of the things I have deconstructed, knowing very well that many Christians have died for that beleif... which is even more sad as history shows Many died from fellow beleiver own hands. In fact we are not to die for our beleifs, but for Christ’s sake. It is sadder that some have died for just someones “ideology” that may have not even been scriptural…. Such as John Calvin’s murdering of those who didi not agree with him.I tend to agree with that in the definition of Sacrament, that Christ is revealed in many ways in our life… to just keep Christ contained in worship involveing the Sacraments to me, loses the broadness that God’s Grace can be received. I attended a denomination which would give communion after taking the bread and out fo a box, serve it out then placing it back into a box… and that is how the congrgation lived… with God in a box during the week so as to not be a bother in their day to day live… Yet the scripture tells us that Christ is to BE our very LIFE for He is LIFE itself.
4. I think you may be reading some of the wrong books…. Remember Brian McLaren is only a small point in the conversation. In fact the conversation is much larger and I even regret that it is now called a movememtn as I see that diminshes from the whole that I precieve. Also, remember that Brian’s NKOC series is ment to provoke thoughts and challenge. In fact it is a new genera of fact/fiction in form. I was surprised to read other books where Brian seems to me too modern in his views.
I recommend some other books as:Churchnext Eddie GibbsBooks on Dietrich Bonheoffer or his writings if one can find a good translation.Anything by Len SweetThe Church in Emerging Culture: Five PerspectivesBrian McLaren’s Church on the Other Side, The which is a great book to me, and I think you may find very interesting on his view of authority. Which to me is too modern in his view here.Finally, it seems that you are really lumping many of us all together. I also think that you are very much throwing a broad blanket over emergent. I have painstakingly step by step followed Jesus in my walk, as I am sure you have also. I am not one who takes changing things lightly. I really only read others thoughts outside the Bible to challenge my own. Along the way I have learned that even when, or rather when my faith becomes too comfortable God reveals something to me that challenges and disturbs my very core. This promotes growth in me. I think we can say there are many churches that have become so entrenched in “their view” that if one disagrees with them on anything even politics is to be labeled a heretic. I used to find comfort in knowing all the answers like the Bible answer man… yet now I find comfort in know Jesus is the answer and how in my life in faith through His grace this plays itself out. I see the Bible as a living document, which Jesus Himself is the embodiedment of. I do not think we have and anointed translations that are perfect, yet I personally hold the Bible above any other book in reverence. I am amazed as many claim to take the Bible literally, yet do not. Since I have begun this journey, I have seen that I do take it literally more and more…. Such as take care of the widows and orphans.My friend you have not hijacked this post, we have just conversed which mind you is not allowed in many churches today. I would add that if we do not look at real ways to reach this postmodern people they will be in hell…. The real thing not Brian’s version of hell.
If you want some additional understandings I recommend http://www.anewkindofconversation.com/ and downloading from http://grts.cornerstone.edu/resources/tpoints/fa05
Be blessed brother…
I have enjoyed the conversation.
Blessings,
iggy
I decided to bring it our as a post on it's own as Dan and I have begun quite an interesting dialog.
Enjoy.
Blessings,
iggy
At Thursday, November 17, 2005 12:07:20 PM, Dan said...As I have said before, I have looked at the emrgent church movement and I am not going to say that everything about it is bad. But I do think that it is far to volatile for me to consider it "good." I don't want to hijack this thread so if it seems that I am doing so, we can move this to a different forum. My main problems with the emergent church are as follows
1) its constant attempts to escape definition and remove itself from any one authority makes it impossible to take seriously. For example, to call something a movement and an open non judgemental conversation seems pretty contradictory. In order to be a movement there has to be a point you are moving toward. So it follows that there are paths that are judged insufficient because they do not lead to that point.
2) The cursory treatment of church history and theology given by emergents. Brian McLaren is notorious for this. His treatment of baptism in Generous Orthodoxy is particularly bad not only for his lack of sources sited, but also the lack of compensation for his obvious bias. I'm not sure which bothered me more in this particular section, the fact that his history was so wrong or the fact that he summed up the history of Christian baptism in little over a paragraph.
3) Lacking a sense of the gravity of the subjects being dealt with. I realize that the emergent conversation is meant to be open and all, but more emergents need to realize that they are tossing around the beliefs that Christians have spent their lives following and perhaps even died for like an old hat. With Mclaren again as an example, refering to everything as a sacrament and expecting all of chrisendom to jump on the bandwagon is insulting. Imaging walking up to a priest and telling him that the eucharist is no more a sacrament than "looking at the smile of a down syndrome child."
4) The lack of solid scholarly work coming from the emergent movement. Much of what I have read from emergents has been much more in the vain of the evangelical machine that they are trying to escape than truly scholarly work. I realize that it is a young movement and is a victim of the gen x and y disconnect with the previous generations leaving it severed from the traditions and knowedge that came before, but if this movement wants to become something truly substantial, it needs to bridge that gap.
I'm going to stop here for now because this is getting long.
Again sorry for the possible hijack.
Dan,
Again welcome.
I will try to answer in regards to your post here...
Which is better. A stale, possible wrong, doctrine, or the living Christ?
1. In fact we have removed ourseslves from the authority such as Ingrid and Paul Proctors... If you read most church memberhsip rules they will simply read.
a. beleive in Christ Jesus
b. Acknowledge His authority
Here is the issue this would include a demon in the fellowship as they do this. What seperates us from a demon is LOVE and a relationship based on LOVE. Out of this LOVE come authority, but again it is tempored with LOVE.
2. You might be surprised as I have not read Brians last book, nor do I consider Brian my personal spokesman for my personal doctrine. I think he has tried to bridge the gap, that I personally beleive is past being built, and/or he is still caught in the old paridgm and has not caught that the bridge is Jesus Himself with which we all must cross as He instructs us to build it. I am sure Brian's view on Baptism is provoking. Yet, you might be surprised as the Church of Christ has many emergent's whom I disagree with over their view on baptism, yet I still fellowship with them as brothers. As I said there are Calvinist, Open Theist, and Armenians and of course an iggy. haha. Yet we all seem to be able to converse without the type of attitude that is prevelant of modernism that is "me right/you wrong thinking. In fact I believe Christianity transends right wrong thinking and focuses on what is good... as in the Romans passage which Paul struggle between not doing "good" and doing "good" as opposed to doind right and wrong.
3. My friend have you ever read any Martin Luthers writings? they are hillariously witty and contain some of the best insights of a beleive one can read. Martin Luther had a sense of humor. Actually to say this as an accusation, seems to show your lack of the very journey many emergents have walked. I for one have struggled deeply and prayed hard over many of the things I have deconstructed, knowing very well that many Christians have died for that beleif... which is even more sad as history shows Many died from fellow beleiver own hands. In fact we are not to die for our beleifs, but for Christ’s sake. It is sadder that some have died for just someones “ideology” that may have not even been scriptural…. Such as John Calvin’s murdering of those who didi not agree with him.I tend to agree with that in the definition of Sacrament, that Christ is revealed in many ways in our life… to just keep Christ contained in worship involveing the Sacraments to me, loses the broadness that God’s Grace can be received. I attended a denomination which would give communion after taking the bread and out fo a box, serve it out then placing it back into a box… and that is how the congrgation lived… with God in a box during the week so as to not be a bother in their day to day live… Yet the scripture tells us that Christ is to BE our very LIFE for He is LIFE itself.
4. I think you may be reading some of the wrong books…. Remember Brian McLaren is only a small point in the conversation. In fact the conversation is much larger and I even regret that it is now called a movememtn as I see that diminshes from the whole that I precieve. Also, remember that Brian’s NKOC series is ment to provoke thoughts and challenge. In fact it is a new genera of fact/fiction in form. I was surprised to read other books where Brian seems to me too modern in his views.
I recommend some other books as:Churchnext Eddie GibbsBooks on Dietrich Bonheoffer or his writings if one can find a good translation.Anything by Len SweetThe Church in Emerging Culture: Five PerspectivesBrian McLaren’s Church on the Other Side, The which is a great book to me, and I think you may find very interesting on his view of authority. Which to me is too modern in his view here.Finally, it seems that you are really lumping many of us all together. I also think that you are very much throwing a broad blanket over emergent. I have painstakingly step by step followed Jesus in my walk, as I am sure you have also. I am not one who takes changing things lightly. I really only read others thoughts outside the Bible to challenge my own. Along the way I have learned that even when, or rather when my faith becomes too comfortable God reveals something to me that challenges and disturbs my very core. This promotes growth in me. I think we can say there are many churches that have become so entrenched in “their view” that if one disagrees with them on anything even politics is to be labeled a heretic. I used to find comfort in knowing all the answers like the Bible answer man… yet now I find comfort in know Jesus is the answer and how in my life in faith through His grace this plays itself out. I see the Bible as a living document, which Jesus Himself is the embodiedment of. I do not think we have and anointed translations that are perfect, yet I personally hold the Bible above any other book in reverence. I am amazed as many claim to take the Bible literally, yet do not. Since I have begun this journey, I have seen that I do take it literally more and more…. Such as take care of the widows and orphans.My friend you have not hijacked this post, we have just conversed which mind you is not allowed in many churches today. I would add that if we do not look at real ways to reach this postmodern people they will be in hell…. The real thing not Brian’s version of hell.
If you want some additional understandings I recommend http://www.anewkindofconversation.com/ and downloading from http://grts.cornerstone.edu/resources/tpoints/fa05
Be blessed brother…
I have enjoyed the conversation.
Blessings,
iggy
Wednesday, November 16, 2005
Dont call me brother
Don’t call me brother….
I am not sure how to respond, or even if I should to the people who seem to think God is killing those whom in their own eyes are heretics.
I think Kyle Lake was far from a heretic.
Now, what I do see is this.
There are some whom seem to have placed themselves as the Judges of not just sinners but of fellow Christian brothers and sisters. Then they use, or rather misused scripture to back up their twisted belief system.
John in his epistles tells us
1 John 2
1. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
4. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6. Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
7. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard.
8. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
11. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
For those of you who claim to take the Bible literally, (which I find most say they do but really don’t and weirdly I seem to more that most who claim they do), notice again what John says,
“9. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
11. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
I find it sad that so many of these self-appointed watchdogs of the faith, miss this. I could name names, in fact I have in other posts, but fellow souljourners, will that bring back Kyle Lake?
First off I do not want to give the impression I knew Kyle. In fact I can’t remember hearing about him until this tragic event happened. I almost let it slide by until I came across some anti emergent people mocking his passing and claiming God was getting those emergent heretics. This left me stone cold. How can a brother be so filled with hate that they rejoice in another’s pain and sorrow? Jesus even taught to pray for our enemies, and yet, these people claiming Jesus, laugh and seem to rejoice in a brother in Christ’s passing.
Hate is not a Christian value, nor is it a Christian anything. Yes, we are called to hate evil and sin; yet, these are not people, let alone fellow believers. How do we hate evil and sin? By LOVE!!!!!!!!
We overcome evil and sin by the Power of God’s LOVE!!!!
Yes, judgment is coming and the wicked will be dealt with, yet for now we are to bring the love of Christ to the world in hope of their redemption.
I am sick of the Ingrid’s and Paul Proctors of this world who to me are hatemonger’s and stand on nothing but their own self righteousness and judgmentalism. I am sick of people like Pat Robertson who condemn entire cities in the name of Jesus, and forget He died for their sin as well as PR’s.
I admire Brian McLaren and how he can respond to his detractors in love and not react. I pray someday I too can be more like that.
Christianity Today has an article I thought interesting. It is about how Kyle Lake might explain his own death, by his own theology. Does Electrocution Happen for a Reason?
To summarize this all and tie it together I will quote the last paragraph of that article taken from Kyle’s book Understanding God's Will: How to Hack the Equation Without Formulas:
“…I would interpret Romans 8:28 as saying this: "Disappointment, failure, and suffering are simply facts of life. But for those who are actively following God, He can turn disappointment and tragedy into new life."
My prayers are with the congregation at University Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. May Kyle’s life be an example of Christ that one can cherish and carry as one grows in faith.
My prayers are also for those who preach hate, that the true Light of Christ be found and the hate in your hearts be displaced with the LOVE of Christ for God first then for your brothers… but until then, don’t call me brother. (John 18:19, John 8:42-45)
Luke 6: 35. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
36. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
38. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39. He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?
40. A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
42. How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
43. "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
44. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
45. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
46. "Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
47. I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice.
48. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
49. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."
I still have a lot to learn. Yet, I would rather be called a heretic than to spew hate from Hell and call it God’s Will.
Blessings,
iggy
I am not sure how to respond, or even if I should to the people who seem to think God is killing those whom in their own eyes are heretics.
I think Kyle Lake was far from a heretic.
Now, what I do see is this.
There are some whom seem to have placed themselves as the Judges of not just sinners but of fellow Christian brothers and sisters. Then they use, or rather misused scripture to back up their twisted belief system.
John in his epistles tells us
1 John 2
1. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
4. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6. Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
7. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard.
8. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
11. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
For those of you who claim to take the Bible literally, (which I find most say they do but really don’t and weirdly I seem to more that most who claim they do), notice again what John says,
“9. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
11. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
I find it sad that so many of these self-appointed watchdogs of the faith, miss this. I could name names, in fact I have in other posts, but fellow souljourners, will that bring back Kyle Lake?
First off I do not want to give the impression I knew Kyle. In fact I can’t remember hearing about him until this tragic event happened. I almost let it slide by until I came across some anti emergent people mocking his passing and claiming God was getting those emergent heretics. This left me stone cold. How can a brother be so filled with hate that they rejoice in another’s pain and sorrow? Jesus even taught to pray for our enemies, and yet, these people claiming Jesus, laugh and seem to rejoice in a brother in Christ’s passing.
Hate is not a Christian value, nor is it a Christian anything. Yes, we are called to hate evil and sin; yet, these are not people, let alone fellow believers. How do we hate evil and sin? By LOVE!!!!!!!!
We overcome evil and sin by the Power of God’s LOVE!!!!
Yes, judgment is coming and the wicked will be dealt with, yet for now we are to bring the love of Christ to the world in hope of their redemption.
I am sick of the Ingrid’s and Paul Proctors of this world who to me are hatemonger’s and stand on nothing but their own self righteousness and judgmentalism. I am sick of people like Pat Robertson who condemn entire cities in the name of Jesus, and forget He died for their sin as well as PR’s.
I admire Brian McLaren and how he can respond to his detractors in love and not react. I pray someday I too can be more like that.
Christianity Today has an article I thought interesting. It is about how Kyle Lake might explain his own death, by his own theology. Does Electrocution Happen for a Reason?
To summarize this all and tie it together I will quote the last paragraph of that article taken from Kyle’s book Understanding God's Will: How to Hack the Equation Without Formulas:
“…I would interpret Romans 8:28 as saying this: "Disappointment, failure, and suffering are simply facts of life. But for those who are actively following God, He can turn disappointment and tragedy into new life."
My prayers are with the congregation at University Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. May Kyle’s life be an example of Christ that one can cherish and carry as one grows in faith.
My prayers are also for those who preach hate, that the true Light of Christ be found and the hate in your hearts be displaced with the LOVE of Christ for God first then for your brothers… but until then, don’t call me brother. (John 18:19, John 8:42-45)
Luke 6: 35. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
36. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
38. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39. He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?
40. A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
42. How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
43. "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
44. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
45. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
46. "Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
47. I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice.
48. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
49. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."
I still have a lot to learn. Yet, I would rather be called a heretic than to spew hate from Hell and call it God’s Will.
Blessings,
iggy
Tuesday, November 15, 2005
Learning to hate one's brother in Laodicea
Learning to hate one’s brother in Laodicea
You can read Ingrid and laugh,
You can read her and cry,
You can read her and even wonder why?
Yet, mostly I read her and think,
There, but by God's grace...
go I.
Blessings,
iggy
You can read Ingrid and laugh,
You can read her and cry,
You can read her and even wonder why?
Yet, mostly I read her and think,
There, but by God's grace...
go I.
Blessings,
iggy
Happy B-Day Levi
Happy B-Day Levi!
Hope it was dynamite!
Be sure to stop by and tell him happy birthday….
Blessings,
iggy
Hope it was dynamite!
Be sure to stop by and tell him happy birthday….
Blessings,
iggy
Saturday, November 12, 2005
Napoleon Dynamite Soundboard
Napoleon Dynamite Soundboard
If you need a special dose of Napolean Dynamite.... here ya go.
Check this out also! KJ52 newest song.
blessings,
iggy
If you need a special dose of Napolean Dynamite.... here ya go.
Check this out also! KJ52 newest song.
blessings,
iggy
Return of A Continuing Conversation on TSKW
This post was an answer in response to a conversation about fundamentalism as compatible with emergent thought. It originally was posted on TSKW blog. Jason has given me a lot to chew on so I hope to respond in another post soon. Some good thoughts here I wanted to pass on.
Greetings Iggy ,
Didn't mean to seem like I had dropped off . You , sir, have posted an interesting response .
It is the case that mankind is fallen, yet , it should be stated that it is NOT the faculty of deductive logic that is tainted. Instead the emotive faculty as well as the appetites within man that is tainted. Often man allows base emotions like envy and greed --as well as the desire for crass , vulgar activities such as the excitement that results from sexual intercourse--to block out or distract ther higher emotions like charitable love for others , hope, mercy and so on .
One of the purposes that Jesus came to earth to live among us was to teach us to NOT let those lower emotions and appetites block out the good emotiions, but rather to block out that which is crass and NOT noble . That high standard is what He was appealing to at when He said in the gospels, 'Go out and find what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. '
Deductive reason helps to discourage those lower emotions, and the appetite for vulgar forms of excitement--forms of excitement without ethical or esthetic value . In that way, deductive logic (aka reason) can be a factor that either helps us to be more nurturing/more loving --or at least to block out irrational desires like greed , envy , status seeking ..that are against being nurturing/loving people .
The Spirit of God can thus be seen to edify people through deductive logic . To have loving hearts it certainly helps to have minds that are consistent--or at least continually try to be. And being consistent does often mean getting into the nitty gritty of analyzing thin distinctions --what some call "splitting hairs" .
One way of thinking that for a number of years has made me cringe--and I admire you since I've *not* seen you engage in what I'm about to describe--is the tendency for *some* people in the Fundamentalist community to try and refer to reason/logic as the "carnal mind" .
When St.Paul wrote in his epistles about the carnal mind there is NO explicit indication that Paul was in any way referring to logic/reason ;NO indication that Paul was referring to intellectualism of any kind! The truth is that when Paul writes of the 'carnal mind', or even the word 'carnal' --he mentions it in connection with the desire for sexual intercourse and or matters having to do with money ! It truly boggles how glibly some people take that phrase 'carnal mind' and try and re-define it to apply it to something that it does NOT apply to . What it doesn't apply to is reason/logic ...or intellectualism .
Some might cite the warning in Colossians where Paul seems to disparage 'philosophy' . Yet it is the view of some in the community of Bible scholars that Paul was NOT warning against formal philosophy --but instead what is called philosophy when the word "philosophy" is used in the loosest sense, and , hence, according to a scholar I read who studied the writings of Paul, Paul was warning against occult practices of astrology and other superstitious practices that were popular in some of the cities of Greece such as the city where the Colossian Christians lived . According to the scholar Paul was NOT warning against 'philosophy' in the technical, formal sense of the word such was practiced by people such as Socrates and Plato .
Of course that is an interpretation on the part of that scholar , granted and he must demonstrate such an interpretation by explicit means . However, such an interpretation is NOT that implausible when we consider that in the book of Acts , St.Paul shows a deep liking for the writings of some of the Greek philosophical poets such as Cleanthes,Aratus, and Epiminides and quotes them NOT disapprovingly, but quotes them with approval .Paul does indicate that these philosophical poets had valid insights about the same God he was proclaiming when he spoke to the Epicureans and Stoics, on Mars Hill, in the book of Acts . It is rather repugnant how people who are ready to dismiss the importance and influence of Greek philosophy on the New Testament writers --downplay that Paul quoted such philosophical poets .
In regard to Isaiah 55:8 , the statments that you have presented are of interest and *not necessarily* at odds with what I have been obligated to present--I would , nonetheless, like to emphasize for emphasis, that it is mind-boggling how some people present such an outrageously weird notion that MIS-interprets the statement how His ways are not our ways and tries to spin it, to promote the doctrine that insults God by trying to get us to believe that God supposedly pre-allows tragedy even to befall innocent people such as children and infants for some supposedly mysterious purpose---when Isaiah 55:8 does NOT explicitly support that mysterious purpose doctrine at all !
Furthermore, Isaiah 45:6-7, which I've seen twisted/falsely interpreted by people who support that weird doctrine of a mysterious- purpose- for- allowing evil-- apparently uses the Hebrew word 'ra' which is "translated" into English by being replaced by the word 'evil' --often did NOT refer to evil as in wickedness/unethical behavior . Often it simply meant an unpleasant experience--such as an unplesant that would befall great evil doers OR a destruction of some state of affairs . In Jeremiah 24:2 the Hebrew word 'ra', that is rendered into English "translations" of Isaiah 45:6-7 as the word 'evil', is apparently rendered by the word 'bad' in Jeremiah 24:2 referring to some figs in a basket that had become overripe . Thus , Isaiah 45:6-7 does NOT explicitly support that weird doctrine that would mislead us into thinking that God creates evil . Neither does Amos 3:6 --since it too apparently uses the Hebrew word 'ra' which can often signify an unpleasant experience , but not necessarily one with a wicked , unethical source .
Though I agree that God will sometimes use physical calamities to physical destroy evildoers . Not that you are at odds with what I am about to state--but let me state for emphasis that I do NOT think that God will destroy the good doers along with the evil doers--I believe that when God destroys evil doers He singles out those evil doers . The tragedy that befell many people because of hurricane Katrina and the earthquake in Pakistan --there is NO indication in the Bible nor in natural theology that those events in any way served the will of God and you are right to disapprove of the outlook those who say they did . It never ceases to amaze me how back last year in 2004 when there was the Tsunami in southeast Asia--there was one or more evangelists who claimed that the people who died in the Tsunami was somehow the will of God to punish the sinful . The question that ought to be asked is what about all the sinful pimps who run hideous child prostitution rings in Bangkok , Thailand who *weren't* drowned by the Tsunami ? Why weren't they washed out to sea ---IF that tidal wave was sent to punish sin doers ? Someone ought to ask such people who make such claims that .
As for the relativist/postmodernists, I haven't gathered that they have observed that we as humanity have had the difference between good and evil explained and yet not had the consistency to live it out and objected to that inconsistency much. Rather the relativists like and support inconsistency. They especially like and support inconsistency in thought (what they call being "conflicted") , though some of them probably don't mind inconsistency in action .
In another post, here in this present thread, I would like to re-post the text of an e-mail to the editors of the magazine: 'Christianity Today' regarding the statements made by one theologian that promote the acceptance of NON-consistent thinking under the name of so-called "paradox" and how bad that NON-consistent thinking is . I bear that theologian no ill will as a person and wish him well, however, it is quite deplorable that people pass off that NOT consistent thinking in regard to doctrine of theology as some so-called "paradox" . As you point out it is better to say "I don't know" then to use paradox as a supposed explanation .
I would argue that "acceptance of mystery", though, can be also a phrase that can be bandied about in regard to doctrinal topics with just as much of a mendacious cop- out sort of flare as the word "paradox" . I'm NOT claiming that you are doing that --since the statements you have made regarding the prospect of mystery have apparently more nuance than how many I've heard use that word 'mystery' .
Posted by: Jason Leary Oct 26, 2005 9:18:46 AM
Greetings Iggy ,
Didn't mean to seem like I had dropped off . You , sir, have posted an interesting response .
It is the case that mankind is fallen, yet , it should be stated that it is NOT the faculty of deductive logic that is tainted. Instead the emotive faculty as well as the appetites within man that is tainted. Often man allows base emotions like envy and greed --as well as the desire for crass , vulgar activities such as the excitement that results from sexual intercourse--to block out or distract ther higher emotions like charitable love for others , hope, mercy and so on .
One of the purposes that Jesus came to earth to live among us was to teach us to NOT let those lower emotions and appetites block out the good emotiions, but rather to block out that which is crass and NOT noble . That high standard is what He was appealing to at when He said in the gospels, 'Go out and find what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. '
Deductive reason helps to discourage those lower emotions, and the appetite for vulgar forms of excitement--forms of excitement without ethical or esthetic value . In that way, deductive logic (aka reason) can be a factor that either helps us to be more nurturing/more loving --or at least to block out irrational desires like greed , envy , status seeking ..that are against being nurturing/loving people .
The Spirit of God can thus be seen to edify people through deductive logic . To have loving hearts it certainly helps to have minds that are consistent--or at least continually try to be. And being consistent does often mean getting into the nitty gritty of analyzing thin distinctions --what some call "splitting hairs" .
One way of thinking that for a number of years has made me cringe--and I admire you since I've *not* seen you engage in what I'm about to describe--is the tendency for *some* people in the Fundamentalist community to try and refer to reason/logic as the "carnal mind" .
When St.Paul wrote in his epistles about the carnal mind there is NO explicit indication that Paul was in any way referring to logic/reason ;NO indication that Paul was referring to intellectualism of any kind! The truth is that when Paul writes of the 'carnal mind', or even the word 'carnal' --he mentions it in connection with the desire for sexual intercourse and or matters having to do with money ! It truly boggles how glibly some people take that phrase 'carnal mind' and try and re-define it to apply it to something that it does NOT apply to . What it doesn't apply to is reason/logic ...or intellectualism .
Some might cite the warning in Colossians where Paul seems to disparage 'philosophy' . Yet it is the view of some in the community of Bible scholars that Paul was NOT warning against formal philosophy --but instead what is called philosophy when the word "philosophy" is used in the loosest sense, and , hence, according to a scholar I read who studied the writings of Paul, Paul was warning against occult practices of astrology and other superstitious practices that were popular in some of the cities of Greece such as the city where the Colossian Christians lived . According to the scholar Paul was NOT warning against 'philosophy' in the technical, formal sense of the word such was practiced by people such as Socrates and Plato .
Of course that is an interpretation on the part of that scholar , granted and he must demonstrate such an interpretation by explicit means . However, such an interpretation is NOT that implausible when we consider that in the book of Acts , St.Paul shows a deep liking for the writings of some of the Greek philosophical poets such as Cleanthes,Aratus, and Epiminides and quotes them NOT disapprovingly, but quotes them with approval .Paul does indicate that these philosophical poets had valid insights about the same God he was proclaiming when he spoke to the Epicureans and Stoics, on Mars Hill, in the book of Acts . It is rather repugnant how people who are ready to dismiss the importance and influence of Greek philosophy on the New Testament writers --downplay that Paul quoted such philosophical poets .
In regard to Isaiah 55:8 , the statments that you have presented are of interest and *not necessarily* at odds with what I have been obligated to present--I would , nonetheless, like to emphasize for emphasis, that it is mind-boggling how some people present such an outrageously weird notion that MIS-interprets the statement how His ways are not our ways and tries to spin it, to promote the doctrine that insults God by trying to get us to believe that God supposedly pre-allows tragedy even to befall innocent people such as children and infants for some supposedly mysterious purpose---when Isaiah 55:8 does NOT explicitly support that mysterious purpose doctrine at all !
Furthermore, Isaiah 45:6-7, which I've seen twisted/falsely interpreted by people who support that weird doctrine of a mysterious- purpose- for- allowing evil-- apparently uses the Hebrew word 'ra' which is "translated" into English by being replaced by the word 'evil' --often did NOT refer to evil as in wickedness/unethical behavior . Often it simply meant an unpleasant experience--such as an unplesant that would befall great evil doers OR a destruction of some state of affairs . In Jeremiah 24:2 the Hebrew word 'ra', that is rendered into English "translations" of Isaiah 45:6-7 as the word 'evil', is apparently rendered by the word 'bad' in Jeremiah 24:2 referring to some figs in a basket that had become overripe . Thus , Isaiah 45:6-7 does NOT explicitly support that weird doctrine that would mislead us into thinking that God creates evil . Neither does Amos 3:6 --since it too apparently uses the Hebrew word 'ra' which can often signify an unpleasant experience , but not necessarily one with a wicked , unethical source .
Though I agree that God will sometimes use physical calamities to physical destroy evildoers . Not that you are at odds with what I am about to state--but let me state for emphasis that I do NOT think that God will destroy the good doers along with the evil doers--I believe that when God destroys evil doers He singles out those evil doers . The tragedy that befell many people because of hurricane Katrina and the earthquake in Pakistan --there is NO indication in the Bible nor in natural theology that those events in any way served the will of God and you are right to disapprove of the outlook those who say they did . It never ceases to amaze me how back last year in 2004 when there was the Tsunami in southeast Asia--there was one or more evangelists who claimed that the people who died in the Tsunami was somehow the will of God to punish the sinful . The question that ought to be asked is what about all the sinful pimps who run hideous child prostitution rings in Bangkok , Thailand who *weren't* drowned by the Tsunami ? Why weren't they washed out to sea ---IF that tidal wave was sent to punish sin doers ? Someone ought to ask such people who make such claims that .
As for the relativist/postmodernists, I haven't gathered that they have observed that we as humanity have had the difference between good and evil explained and yet not had the consistency to live it out and objected to that inconsistency much. Rather the relativists like and support inconsistency. They especially like and support inconsistency in thought (what they call being "conflicted") , though some of them probably don't mind inconsistency in action .
In another post, here in this present thread, I would like to re-post the text of an e-mail to the editors of the magazine: 'Christianity Today' regarding the statements made by one theologian that promote the acceptance of NON-consistent thinking under the name of so-called "paradox" and how bad that NON-consistent thinking is . I bear that theologian no ill will as a person and wish him well, however, it is quite deplorable that people pass off that NOT consistent thinking in regard to doctrine of theology as some so-called "paradox" . As you point out it is better to say "I don't know" then to use paradox as a supposed explanation .
I would argue that "acceptance of mystery", though, can be also a phrase that can be bandied about in regard to doctrinal topics with just as much of a mendacious cop- out sort of flare as the word "paradox" . I'm NOT claiming that you are doing that --since the statements you have made regarding the prospect of mystery have apparently more nuance than how many I've heard use that word 'mystery' .
Posted by: Jason Leary Oct 26, 2005 9:18:46 AM
Friday, November 11, 2005
Mmmm, That's Good Coffee...
Rick, one of my favorite blogs has moved to typepad... I would also yet I really can't afford somthing more than FREE.He has a great blog, and the latest post Geography Lesson is very insighful...Enjoy.
Blessings,
iggy
Tuesday, November 08, 2005
Ohhhh the Giggles!
When ever I need a pick me up I watch this...
It is Fischer at about 9 months old. His little personality comes out so great in this little clip.
Hope it blesses you,
iggy
It is Fischer at about 9 months old. His little personality comes out so great in this little clip.
Hope it blesses you,
iggy
Saturday, November 05, 2005
I have "needs"
I have “needs”
Check this out… type in (your name) and add needs in Google and see what your needs are. Here are some of mine… apparently.
Iggy needs the support of Hispanic businesses
Iggy needs to let go, be unleashed
Iggy needs artistic Viagara
Iggy needs a new top.
Iggy needs to hone that jump shot.
Iggy needs more than a tribute disc is another Trainspotting soundtrack.
Iggy's needs to take 2 big steps back and decide what they want to be and stick with it.
iggy needs to learn to pass
Iggy needs to read Teen Girl Squad
Iggy needs a links page.
Iggy needs some young guys around him. He’s old.
Iggy needs a ciggy.
Iggy needs to abandon D'Arcy's Pint and go somewhere in town that serves 'real'horseshoes!!
Iggy needs to not post porn on his site!
Iggy needs your help.
Iggy, of course, needs no introduction.
Iggy needs to be in Iraq, in uniform, on night patrol, in downtown Bagdad.
Iggy Need A New Home
Blessings,
iggy
Check this out… type in (your name) and add needs in Google and see what your needs are. Here are some of mine… apparently.
Iggy needs the support of Hispanic businesses
Iggy needs to let go, be unleashed
Iggy needs artistic Viagara
Iggy needs a new top.
Iggy needs to hone that jump shot.
Iggy needs more than a tribute disc is another Trainspotting soundtrack.
Iggy's needs to take 2 big steps back and decide what they want to be and stick with it.
iggy needs to learn to pass
Iggy needs to read Teen Girl Squad
Iggy needs a links page.
Iggy needs some young guys around him. He’s old.
Iggy needs a ciggy.
Iggy needs to abandon D'Arcy's Pint and go somewhere in town that serves 'real'horseshoes!!
Iggy needs to not post porn on his site!
Iggy needs your help.
Iggy, of course, needs no introduction.
Iggy needs to be in Iraq, in uniform, on night patrol, in downtown Bagdad.
Iggy Need A New Home
Blessings,
iggy
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