One of my favorite teachers is Chuck Missler. http://www.khouse.org/
One of his teachings shows that the Gospel is taught in Genesis 5… from the names of the 10 mentioned from Adam to Noah. What a blessing to see that God’s plan has been to send His Son from Adam on.
Blessings,
iggy
Genealogy of Genesis 5
Adam Man (is)
Seth Appointed
Enosh Mortal
Kenan Sorrow; (but)
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The despairing
Noah Comfort, Rest
Wednesday, November 30, 2005
Thoughts on Psalms 4
Thoughts on Psalms 4
Psa 4:1 To the Chief Musician, for stringed instruments. A Psalm of David. Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness; You gave room to me in trouble; have mercy on me, and hear my prayer.
Psa 4:2 O sons of men, how long will you turn My glory into shame? Will you love vanity and seek after a lie?
Selah.
Psa 4:3 But know that Jehovah has set apart the godly for Himself. Jehovah hears when I call to Him.
Psa 4:4 Tremble, and sin not; speak within your own heart on your bed and be still. Selah.
Psa 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and trust in Jehovah.
Psa 4:6 There are many who say, Who will show us any good? Jehovah, lift up the light of Your face on us.
Psa 4:7 You have put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their grain and their wine increased.
Psa 4:8 I will lie down, both in peace and in sleep. For You alone, Jehovah, make me dwell in safety.
One must call on the Lord to have Him listen. Our cries can be in many forms, be out of fear, lamentation, anger, triumph and of course love.
David cries out to those who mock God to say, “How long will you turn my Glory into shame?” God has even done something even greater… He has turned Himself, through His Son… to be both our shame and our Glory. Jesus on the cross to take our shame, to cause us to humble our hearts and realize how much God loves and how far He will go to show us His love.
David has just gone through hiding for his life from his own son… yet God overcame David's son Absalom. Though David lost his son… he has gained more confidence in God’s ability to take on the causes of those who follow Him. In fact David revels in it! We need to realize God lost a Son, Who because He was perfect and without sin, gave God many Sons and Daughters! In this we should revel in!
In many ways if the world really understood who we are in Christ They would be trembling in fear… Yet, as scripture tells us, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone”. (Psalms 118:22)
Jesus follows this scripture with: "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.” (Matt 21:43)
We are to offer sacrifices…. Or as Romans 12:1 says, “Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.”As we offer ourselves as living sacrifices, God will radiate His Glory (Jesus) on those who mock. In this radiance we will find blessing greater than any worldly thing.
"Psa 4:7 You have put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their grain and their wine increased."
We will also gain the blessing of a good conscience, with peace and in sleep, knowing God's got our back.
"Psa 4:8 I will lie down, both in peace and in sleep. For You alone, Jehovah, make me dwell in safety."
We eternally dwell in Christ Himself... for He is Life Eternal. In Him we have His protection. I will say this, do not think this is just physical protection here on earth... this is much greater than that. It is Eternal Protection. It is the salvation of our souls for all eternity. We may lose our lives here on earth, but we will not lose all, but gain more, for we gain Christ Himself.
Blessings,
iggy
Psa 4:1 To the Chief Musician, for stringed instruments. A Psalm of David. Hear me when I call, O God of my righteousness; You gave room to me in trouble; have mercy on me, and hear my prayer.
Psa 4:2 O sons of men, how long will you turn My glory into shame? Will you love vanity and seek after a lie?
Selah.
Psa 4:3 But know that Jehovah has set apart the godly for Himself. Jehovah hears when I call to Him.
Psa 4:4 Tremble, and sin not; speak within your own heart on your bed and be still. Selah.
Psa 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and trust in Jehovah.
Psa 4:6 There are many who say, Who will show us any good? Jehovah, lift up the light of Your face on us.
Psa 4:7 You have put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their grain and their wine increased.
Psa 4:8 I will lie down, both in peace and in sleep. For You alone, Jehovah, make me dwell in safety.
One must call on the Lord to have Him listen. Our cries can be in many forms, be out of fear, lamentation, anger, triumph and of course love.
David cries out to those who mock God to say, “How long will you turn my Glory into shame?” God has even done something even greater… He has turned Himself, through His Son… to be both our shame and our Glory. Jesus on the cross to take our shame, to cause us to humble our hearts and realize how much God loves and how far He will go to show us His love.
David has just gone through hiding for his life from his own son… yet God overcame David's son Absalom. Though David lost his son… he has gained more confidence in God’s ability to take on the causes of those who follow Him. In fact David revels in it! We need to realize God lost a Son, Who because He was perfect and without sin, gave God many Sons and Daughters! In this we should revel in!
In many ways if the world really understood who we are in Christ They would be trembling in fear… Yet, as scripture tells us, “The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone”. (Psalms 118:22)
Jesus follows this scripture with: "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.” (Matt 21:43)
We are to offer sacrifices…. Or as Romans 12:1 says, “Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.”As we offer ourselves as living sacrifices, God will radiate His Glory (Jesus) on those who mock. In this radiance we will find blessing greater than any worldly thing.
"Psa 4:7 You have put gladness in my heart, more than in the time that their grain and their wine increased."
We will also gain the blessing of a good conscience, with peace and in sleep, knowing God's got our back.
"Psa 4:8 I will lie down, both in peace and in sleep. For You alone, Jehovah, make me dwell in safety."
We eternally dwell in Christ Himself... for He is Life Eternal. In Him we have His protection. I will say this, do not think this is just physical protection here on earth... this is much greater than that. It is Eternal Protection. It is the salvation of our souls for all eternity. We may lose our lives here on earth, but we will not lose all, but gain more, for we gain Christ Himself.
Blessings,
iggy
Saturday, November 26, 2005
Birthday musings
Birthday musings.
41 years old…. How did that happen? To make matters worse I ran into a couple of high school classmates last night while we were watching the local parade. They looked much the same… I mean I recognized them and all. They just seemed…. Older.
BTW, I remember the parades having real floats with paper and chicken wire… so many last night just seemed to be white paper and people sitting and waving… a bit boring… but then they threw candy.
It is a tradition that as the paraders walk some through candy to the kids. The kids start on the sidewalk, but by the end of the parade are practically out in the parade itself. It is a bit fun to watch as the candy is thrown and the kids and some adult scramble to get it. I did find it a bit ironic that here in America we throw candy to the gutter for the kids… and in so many other countries kids get their drinking water out of the sew running down the streets. For some reason it seemed… weird.
Ciana stayed with Nana, while Fischer and I watched. TES was in the parade and they were supposed to dance around the Christmas tree…. then the float showed up late and the music didn’t work. The people in front of them were moving too fast and the people behind them too slow… there they were by themselves looking like they were taking their Christmas tree for a walk…. Errr run. Sad but a bit funny. TES was saying, “Never again!”
Oh, yeah… 41 years old today. It is a bit weird. I could handle 40, but this one year more just seems to scream, “WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH YOUR LIFE?”
On this date:
They entered King Tut’s tomb.
Birthdates which occurred on November 26:
- 1607 John Harvard England, clergyman/scholar, major benefactor to Harvard University (library & half his estate)
- 1731 William Cowper England, preromantic poet (His Task)
- 1792 Sarah Moore Grimk‚ American antislavery, women's rights advocate
- 1832 Mary Edwards Walker US, doctor/women's rights leader
- 1857 Ferdinand de Saussure Switzerland, linguist (Cours de Laguistique Generale)
- 1876 Willis Haviland Carrier developed air-conditioning equipment
- 1892 Joe Guyon NFL halfback (Canton, Cleveland, Oorang, Rock I, etc)
- 1894 Norbert Wiener US, mathematician/discovered cybernetics
- 19-- Elizabeth Savage Pittsburgh PA, actress (Gwyneth-Loving)
- 1902 Alberto Morin PR, actor (Armando-Dallas)
- 1905 Emlyn Williams Wales, actor/playwright (David Copperfield)
- 1907 Frances Dee US actress (Of Human Bondage)
- 1910 Cyril Cusack South Africa, actress (Day of the Jackal)
- 1912 Eric Sevareid Velva ND, newscaster (CBS Weekend News)
- 1912 Eugene Ionesco France, dramatist (Rhinoceros)
- 1913 Foy Draper US, relay runner (Olympic-gold-1936)
- 1915 Earl Wild Pittsburgh PA, pianist (Caesar's Hour, NBC Symphony 1942)
- 1922 Adele Jergens Brooklyn NY, actress (Dark Past, Fuller Brush Man)
- 1922 Charles M Schulz cartoonist (Peanuts)
- 1924 George Segal NY, sculptor lifelike mixed-media figures (Bus Driver)
- 1925 Eugene Istomin NYC, pianist (Leventritt Award-1943)
- 1925 Linda Hunt Morriston NJ, actress (Bostonians, Eleni, Silverado)
- 1927 John Carter Center Ridge Ark, actor (Max-Falcon Crest)
- 1929 Betta St John Hawthorne CA, actress (Corridors of Blood)
- 1931 Adolfo Perez Esquivel Buenos Argentina, (1980 Nobel Peace Prize)
- 1931 Giuliana Chenal-Minuzzo Italy, downhill skier (Olympic-bronze-1952)
- 1933 Robert Goulet Lawrence MA, singer/actor (Camelot, Naked Gun 2«)
- 1934 Ludmila Shevtsova USSR, 800m runner (Olympic-gold-1960)
- 1935 Marian Mercer Akron Ohio, actress/singer (Dean Martin Show)
- 1937 Boris Yegorov cosmonaut (Voskhod 1)
- 1937 Leo Lacroix France, skier (Olympic-silver-1964)
- 1938 Rich Little Ottawa Canada, impressionist/actor (Love on a Rooftop)
- 1938 Tina Turner [Anna Mae Bullock], Brownsville TX, singer (Proud Mary)
- 1942 Olivia Cole Memphis TN, actress (Roots, Szysznyk)
- 1943 Jan Stenerud Norway, NFL place kicker (Kansas City Chiefs)
- 1945 John McVie rocker (Fleetwood Mac-Rumours, Tusk)
- 1945 Mikhail Woronin USSR, gymnast (Olympic-2 gold/4 silver/bronze-1968)
- 1948 Galina Prozumenschikova USSR, 200m backstroke (Olympic-gold-1964)
- 1952 Wendy Turnbell Australia, tennis player (1979,82 US Opens Double)
- 1959 Jamie Rose NYC, actress (Susan Birch-St Elsewhere, Falcon Crest)
- 1961 Marcy Walker actress (All My Children, Eden-Santa Barbara)
- 1963 Allyson Rice-Taylor actress (Connor-As the World Turns)
- 1981 Jamie Fiske liver transplant recipient
Really this is a boring list…..
(image placeholder)
Deaths which occurred on November 26: - 1883 Sojourner Truth abolitionist, women's rights advocate, dies
- 1939 James Naismith Basketball inventor, dies
- 1970 B O Davis Sr 1st black general, dies at 93 in Chicago
- 1973 Albert DiSalvo Boston strangler, stabbed
- 1980 Rachael Roberts actress, dies at age 53
- 1982 Dan Tobin actor (I Married Joan, My Favorite Martian), dies at 73
- 1982 Robert Coote actor (Timmy-Rogues, Theodore-Nero Wolfe), dies at 73
- 1985 Ransom Sherman comedian (Father of the Bride), dies at 87
- 1986 Scatman Crothers actor (Louie-Chico & the Man), dies at 76
For November 26
EVENTS
Pelagius II becomes Pope
When assistance from Emperor Tiberius II of Byzantium was not forthcoming, Pelagius convinced the Christian Franks to defend Rome from encroaching Lombards. He attempted to end a schism in the Church over the Three Chapters Controversy and began a controversy of his own when St. John IV the Faster, bishop of Constantinople, assumed the title of "ecumenical patriarch" (a position that made him the equal of Pelagius, if not his superior). Pelagius was also responsible for building projects in Rome and turned his home into a hospital that was of great assistance when the city was struck by a disastrous flood. He himself died of the plague.
Manson family member Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme found guilty of attempting to assassinate President Ford. It is unclear why anyone would want to assassinate such an uninteresting president.
Sex Pistols single Anarchy in the UK released. The song later appeared on Never Mind the Bollocks. Sadly, it has yet to be equalled.
Blessings,
iggy
Wednesday, November 23, 2005
Baby Got Book
Hey, does your baby got Book?
Thanks to =) Bnpositive’s Blog for pointing me to this...
Blessings,
iggy
Thanks to =) Bnpositive’s Blog for pointing me to this...
Blessings,
iggy
Sam Is Gone...
Sam is/was the ugliest dog... Here is a video blurb about him.
I have in a way become obsessed with the story about this dog. I have written at least two posts if not more about him. sadly Sam had to be euthanized yesterday. His story was about being unloved to redeemed by love.
We will miss you Sam
blessings,
iggy
I have in a way become obsessed with the story about this dog. I have written at least two posts if not more about him. sadly Sam had to be euthanized yesterday. His story was about being unloved to redeemed by love.
We will miss you Sam
blessings,
iggy
Tuesday, November 22, 2005
My Other Blog is a Rock station. A shameless plug
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This is a post from my Online Christian station... iggyROCKS! From the iggyROCKS! blog.
playing classic, new, and independent Christian artist.
Blessings,
iggy
Sunday, November 20, 2005
Looking at a slice of Laodicea
Looking at a slice of Laodicea
Rev 3:14. "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16. So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17. You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
20. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
This is often called the church of this age… I don’t think that is right but that is not what this particular post is about.
I think if a blogger names the blog “a slice of Laodicea” they are trying to point out that there is something wrong in today’s church. In that I whole-heartedly agree. The thing is if you look and read some of the things on “Ingrid” it does not take long to see that she is judgmental and really goes out of her way to find these herasies she loves to write about. I am not opposed to exposing people whom I think are hypocrites… I think it is very obvious as you read anything she writes what her true character is.
The ironic thing is if you look at the text from which she take her blog’s name, you find some interesting things I think she could learn from if she took any time to actually read the Bible and see what it does say.
First of this passage is a salvation passage… not about condemnation. You see if you notice, God is talking to a group of people who have not fully made up their mind for Jesus. They are neither hot or cold… they are neither for Him or against Him. So, what choice does Jesus have but to press the issue and tell them if one does not come fully to conversion they are as an unbeliever. Thus Jesus says, “ I will spew you out”. Then Jesus goes into the problem that has blind sided them. I think this is the issue in many modern churchs… that is money.
I am not anti money, nor anti rich. I do not think as a Christian one must be poor nor do I think Jesus was poor…. I think He was without need as He depended on His Father to suply all His needs. The problem of the church of Laodocia was they were rich and had no humility about it. I was listening to one of the MP3’s from the Generous Orthodoxy Conference in Seatle. In it one of the speakers (Sorry as I cannot remember who the speaker was) was talking about how there was a man that he knew who was very rich who did not grasp the concept of generosity. He could not understand how one who was poor who gave actually gave more out of their lack was more generous then when he gave the grand amount ($25,000) he was giving. He thought that the more you gave meant you were more generous, yet to him that amount was really not a sacrifice at all.
The people of Laodicea had this problem. They had much so had trouble seeing they had any real need. They lack humilty to ask for help. They lacked the ability to turn to Jesus and ask Him to help with anything.
Humilty is what is lacking in the people like Ingrid, Paul Proctors blogs. Humility is greatly shown throughout the emergent people that I have met. In fact I see Christ in more of the people in the emergent than I have in most modern churches I have been to and that is what attracted me the most. Without humilty there is no way one can learn and be changed by God. Humility opens the door to be clothed in the fine linen of Christ to cover our shame. We can have the gold more pure than any gold on this earthly wrold, and salve to open our eye to thing eternally important.
So that is what I am calling out for from anyone who claims Christ as their Lord, Saviour, friend, brother. Let us all bend our knees and will to open our heart to Jesus. That is why Jesus says in the last part of the letter t the Laodieans.
“19. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
20. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
So are you listening? Follow Jesus and learn to live in LOVE, or follow Proctor and gamble…. (Groan… yeah I know that was bad {grin})
BTW Laodicea really did not account for much in history… in fact it came to ruin rather quickly and the only real historical significance is the warning written in the book of Revelation.
Blessings,
iggy
Technorati tags:
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Rev 3:14. "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.
15. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16. So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17. You say, `I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
20. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
This is often called the church of this age… I don’t think that is right but that is not what this particular post is about.
I think if a blogger names the blog “a slice of Laodicea” they are trying to point out that there is something wrong in today’s church. In that I whole-heartedly agree. The thing is if you look and read some of the things on “Ingrid” it does not take long to see that she is judgmental and really goes out of her way to find these herasies she loves to write about. I am not opposed to exposing people whom I think are hypocrites… I think it is very obvious as you read anything she writes what her true character is.
The ironic thing is if you look at the text from which she take her blog’s name, you find some interesting things I think she could learn from if she took any time to actually read the Bible and see what it does say.
First of this passage is a salvation passage… not about condemnation. You see if you notice, God is talking to a group of people who have not fully made up their mind for Jesus. They are neither hot or cold… they are neither for Him or against Him. So, what choice does Jesus have but to press the issue and tell them if one does not come fully to conversion they are as an unbeliever. Thus Jesus says, “ I will spew you out”. Then Jesus goes into the problem that has blind sided them. I think this is the issue in many modern churchs… that is money.
I am not anti money, nor anti rich. I do not think as a Christian one must be poor nor do I think Jesus was poor…. I think He was without need as He depended on His Father to suply all His needs. The problem of the church of Laodocia was they were rich and had no humility about it. I was listening to one of the MP3’s from the Generous Orthodoxy Conference in Seatle. In it one of the speakers (Sorry as I cannot remember who the speaker was) was talking about how there was a man that he knew who was very rich who did not grasp the concept of generosity. He could not understand how one who was poor who gave actually gave more out of their lack was more generous then when he gave the grand amount ($25,000) he was giving. He thought that the more you gave meant you were more generous, yet to him that amount was really not a sacrifice at all.
The people of Laodicea had this problem. They had much so had trouble seeing they had any real need. They lack humilty to ask for help. They lacked the ability to turn to Jesus and ask Him to help with anything.
Humilty is what is lacking in the people like Ingrid, Paul Proctors blogs. Humility is greatly shown throughout the emergent people that I have met. In fact I see Christ in more of the people in the emergent than I have in most modern churches I have been to and that is what attracted me the most. Without humilty there is no way one can learn and be changed by God. Humility opens the door to be clothed in the fine linen of Christ to cover our shame. We can have the gold more pure than any gold on this earthly wrold, and salve to open our eye to thing eternally important.
So that is what I am calling out for from anyone who claims Christ as their Lord, Saviour, friend, brother. Let us all bend our knees and will to open our heart to Jesus. That is why Jesus says in the last part of the letter t the Laodieans.
“19. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
20. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
21. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
22. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
So are you listening? Follow Jesus and learn to live in LOVE, or follow Proctor and gamble…. (Groan… yeah I know that was bad {grin})
BTW Laodicea really did not account for much in history… in fact it came to ruin rather quickly and the only real historical significance is the warning written in the book of Revelation.
Blessings,
iggy
Technorati tags:
"Carlos Shelton", Accuser of the brethren, Articles, beware, Beyond emerging church, Beyond emerging thought, Beyond propositional truth, Bible, Billings Mt, Blessings, Christian, Christianity, Church, Conversation, Critics, Doctrine, Doctrines of men, Emerging church, Emerging conversation, Emerging thought, Fellowship, Follower of Christ, Go , God, Grace, Holy Spirit, iggy, iggynation, In Christ, Liar, Living , Living sacrifice, Missing the point, Modernity, One, Philosophy-religion , Post-modernity, Postmodern, Religious spirit, SBC, Steve Camp, The Word, Theology, Thoughts , Truth, Truth Abides, Values, Walk in the Spirit, Word of Mouth Ministries
Thursday, November 17, 2005
Dan and iggy converse
This was originally a comment under the last post called "Don't Call me brother".
I decided to bring it our as a post on it's own as Dan and I have begun quite an interesting dialog.
Enjoy.
Blessings,
iggy
At Thursday, November 17, 2005 12:07:20 PM, Dan said...As I have said before, I have looked at the emrgent church movement and I am not going to say that everything about it is bad. But I do think that it is far to volatile for me to consider it "good." I don't want to hijack this thread so if it seems that I am doing so, we can move this to a different forum. My main problems with the emergent church are as follows
1) its constant attempts to escape definition and remove itself from any one authority makes it impossible to take seriously. For example, to call something a movement and an open non judgemental conversation seems pretty contradictory. In order to be a movement there has to be a point you are moving toward. So it follows that there are paths that are judged insufficient because they do not lead to that point.
2) The cursory treatment of church history and theology given by emergents. Brian McLaren is notorious for this. His treatment of baptism in Generous Orthodoxy is particularly bad not only for his lack of sources sited, but also the lack of compensation for his obvious bias. I'm not sure which bothered me more in this particular section, the fact that his history was so wrong or the fact that he summed up the history of Christian baptism in little over a paragraph.
3) Lacking a sense of the gravity of the subjects being dealt with. I realize that the emergent conversation is meant to be open and all, but more emergents need to realize that they are tossing around the beliefs that Christians have spent their lives following and perhaps even died for like an old hat. With Mclaren again as an example, refering to everything as a sacrament and expecting all of chrisendom to jump on the bandwagon is insulting. Imaging walking up to a priest and telling him that the eucharist is no more a sacrament than "looking at the smile of a down syndrome child."
4) The lack of solid scholarly work coming from the emergent movement. Much of what I have read from emergents has been much more in the vain of the evangelical machine that they are trying to escape than truly scholarly work. I realize that it is a young movement and is a victim of the gen x and y disconnect with the previous generations leaving it severed from the traditions and knowedge that came before, but if this movement wants to become something truly substantial, it needs to bridge that gap.
I'm going to stop here for now because this is getting long.
Again sorry for the possible hijack.
Dan,
Again welcome.
I will try to answer in regards to your post here...
Which is better. A stale, possible wrong, doctrine, or the living Christ?
1. In fact we have removed ourseslves from the authority such as Ingrid and Paul Proctors... If you read most church memberhsip rules they will simply read.
a. beleive in Christ Jesus
b. Acknowledge His authority
Here is the issue this would include a demon in the fellowship as they do this. What seperates us from a demon is LOVE and a relationship based on LOVE. Out of this LOVE come authority, but again it is tempored with LOVE.
2. You might be surprised as I have not read Brians last book, nor do I consider Brian my personal spokesman for my personal doctrine. I think he has tried to bridge the gap, that I personally beleive is past being built, and/or he is still caught in the old paridgm and has not caught that the bridge is Jesus Himself with which we all must cross as He instructs us to build it. I am sure Brian's view on Baptism is provoking. Yet, you might be surprised as the Church of Christ has many emergent's whom I disagree with over their view on baptism, yet I still fellowship with them as brothers. As I said there are Calvinist, Open Theist, and Armenians and of course an iggy. haha. Yet we all seem to be able to converse without the type of attitude that is prevelant of modernism that is "me right/you wrong thinking. In fact I believe Christianity transends right wrong thinking and focuses on what is good... as in the Romans passage which Paul struggle between not doing "good" and doing "good" as opposed to doind right and wrong.
3. My friend have you ever read any Martin Luthers writings? they are hillariously witty and contain some of the best insights of a beleive one can read. Martin Luther had a sense of humor. Actually to say this as an accusation, seems to show your lack of the very journey many emergents have walked. I for one have struggled deeply and prayed hard over many of the things I have deconstructed, knowing very well that many Christians have died for that beleif... which is even more sad as history shows Many died from fellow beleiver own hands. In fact we are not to die for our beleifs, but for Christ’s sake. It is sadder that some have died for just someones “ideology” that may have not even been scriptural…. Such as John Calvin’s murdering of those who didi not agree with him.I tend to agree with that in the definition of Sacrament, that Christ is revealed in many ways in our life… to just keep Christ contained in worship involveing the Sacraments to me, loses the broadness that God’s Grace can be received. I attended a denomination which would give communion after taking the bread and out fo a box, serve it out then placing it back into a box… and that is how the congrgation lived… with God in a box during the week so as to not be a bother in their day to day live… Yet the scripture tells us that Christ is to BE our very LIFE for He is LIFE itself.
4. I think you may be reading some of the wrong books…. Remember Brian McLaren is only a small point in the conversation. In fact the conversation is much larger and I even regret that it is now called a movememtn as I see that diminshes from the whole that I precieve. Also, remember that Brian’s NKOC series is ment to provoke thoughts and challenge. In fact it is a new genera of fact/fiction in form. I was surprised to read other books where Brian seems to me too modern in his views.
I recommend some other books as:Churchnext Eddie GibbsBooks on Dietrich Bonheoffer or his writings if one can find a good translation.Anything by Len SweetThe Church in Emerging Culture: Five PerspectivesBrian McLaren’s Church on the Other Side, The which is a great book to me, and I think you may find very interesting on his view of authority. Which to me is too modern in his view here.Finally, it seems that you are really lumping many of us all together. I also think that you are very much throwing a broad blanket over emergent. I have painstakingly step by step followed Jesus in my walk, as I am sure you have also. I am not one who takes changing things lightly. I really only read others thoughts outside the Bible to challenge my own. Along the way I have learned that even when, or rather when my faith becomes too comfortable God reveals something to me that challenges and disturbs my very core. This promotes growth in me. I think we can say there are many churches that have become so entrenched in “their view” that if one disagrees with them on anything even politics is to be labeled a heretic. I used to find comfort in knowing all the answers like the Bible answer man… yet now I find comfort in know Jesus is the answer and how in my life in faith through His grace this plays itself out. I see the Bible as a living document, which Jesus Himself is the embodiedment of. I do not think we have and anointed translations that are perfect, yet I personally hold the Bible above any other book in reverence. I am amazed as many claim to take the Bible literally, yet do not. Since I have begun this journey, I have seen that I do take it literally more and more…. Such as take care of the widows and orphans.My friend you have not hijacked this post, we have just conversed which mind you is not allowed in many churches today. I would add that if we do not look at real ways to reach this postmodern people they will be in hell…. The real thing not Brian’s version of hell.
If you want some additional understandings I recommend http://www.anewkindofconversation.com/ and downloading from http://grts.cornerstone.edu/resources/tpoints/fa05
Be blessed brother…
I have enjoyed the conversation.
Blessings,
iggy
I decided to bring it our as a post on it's own as Dan and I have begun quite an interesting dialog.
Enjoy.
Blessings,
iggy
At Thursday, November 17, 2005 12:07:20 PM, Dan said...As I have said before, I have looked at the emrgent church movement and I am not going to say that everything about it is bad. But I do think that it is far to volatile for me to consider it "good." I don't want to hijack this thread so if it seems that I am doing so, we can move this to a different forum. My main problems with the emergent church are as follows
1) its constant attempts to escape definition and remove itself from any one authority makes it impossible to take seriously. For example, to call something a movement and an open non judgemental conversation seems pretty contradictory. In order to be a movement there has to be a point you are moving toward. So it follows that there are paths that are judged insufficient because they do not lead to that point.
2) The cursory treatment of church history and theology given by emergents. Brian McLaren is notorious for this. His treatment of baptism in Generous Orthodoxy is particularly bad not only for his lack of sources sited, but also the lack of compensation for his obvious bias. I'm not sure which bothered me more in this particular section, the fact that his history was so wrong or the fact that he summed up the history of Christian baptism in little over a paragraph.
3) Lacking a sense of the gravity of the subjects being dealt with. I realize that the emergent conversation is meant to be open and all, but more emergents need to realize that they are tossing around the beliefs that Christians have spent their lives following and perhaps even died for like an old hat. With Mclaren again as an example, refering to everything as a sacrament and expecting all of chrisendom to jump on the bandwagon is insulting. Imaging walking up to a priest and telling him that the eucharist is no more a sacrament than "looking at the smile of a down syndrome child."
4) The lack of solid scholarly work coming from the emergent movement. Much of what I have read from emergents has been much more in the vain of the evangelical machine that they are trying to escape than truly scholarly work. I realize that it is a young movement and is a victim of the gen x and y disconnect with the previous generations leaving it severed from the traditions and knowedge that came before, but if this movement wants to become something truly substantial, it needs to bridge that gap.
I'm going to stop here for now because this is getting long.
Again sorry for the possible hijack.
Dan,
Again welcome.
I will try to answer in regards to your post here...
Which is better. A stale, possible wrong, doctrine, or the living Christ?
1. In fact we have removed ourseslves from the authority such as Ingrid and Paul Proctors... If you read most church memberhsip rules they will simply read.
a. beleive in Christ Jesus
b. Acknowledge His authority
Here is the issue this would include a demon in the fellowship as they do this. What seperates us from a demon is LOVE and a relationship based on LOVE. Out of this LOVE come authority, but again it is tempored with LOVE.
2. You might be surprised as I have not read Brians last book, nor do I consider Brian my personal spokesman for my personal doctrine. I think he has tried to bridge the gap, that I personally beleive is past being built, and/or he is still caught in the old paridgm and has not caught that the bridge is Jesus Himself with which we all must cross as He instructs us to build it. I am sure Brian's view on Baptism is provoking. Yet, you might be surprised as the Church of Christ has many emergent's whom I disagree with over their view on baptism, yet I still fellowship with them as brothers. As I said there are Calvinist, Open Theist, and Armenians and of course an iggy. haha. Yet we all seem to be able to converse without the type of attitude that is prevelant of modernism that is "me right/you wrong thinking. In fact I believe Christianity transends right wrong thinking and focuses on what is good... as in the Romans passage which Paul struggle between not doing "good" and doing "good" as opposed to doind right and wrong.
3. My friend have you ever read any Martin Luthers writings? they are hillariously witty and contain some of the best insights of a beleive one can read. Martin Luther had a sense of humor. Actually to say this as an accusation, seems to show your lack of the very journey many emergents have walked. I for one have struggled deeply and prayed hard over many of the things I have deconstructed, knowing very well that many Christians have died for that beleif... which is even more sad as history shows Many died from fellow beleiver own hands. In fact we are not to die for our beleifs, but for Christ’s sake. It is sadder that some have died for just someones “ideology” that may have not even been scriptural…. Such as John Calvin’s murdering of those who didi not agree with him.I tend to agree with that in the definition of Sacrament, that Christ is revealed in many ways in our life… to just keep Christ contained in worship involveing the Sacraments to me, loses the broadness that God’s Grace can be received. I attended a denomination which would give communion after taking the bread and out fo a box, serve it out then placing it back into a box… and that is how the congrgation lived… with God in a box during the week so as to not be a bother in their day to day live… Yet the scripture tells us that Christ is to BE our very LIFE for He is LIFE itself.
4. I think you may be reading some of the wrong books…. Remember Brian McLaren is only a small point in the conversation. In fact the conversation is much larger and I even regret that it is now called a movememtn as I see that diminshes from the whole that I precieve. Also, remember that Brian’s NKOC series is ment to provoke thoughts and challenge. In fact it is a new genera of fact/fiction in form. I was surprised to read other books where Brian seems to me too modern in his views.
I recommend some other books as:Churchnext Eddie GibbsBooks on Dietrich Bonheoffer or his writings if one can find a good translation.Anything by Len SweetThe Church in Emerging Culture: Five PerspectivesBrian McLaren’s Church on the Other Side, The which is a great book to me, and I think you may find very interesting on his view of authority. Which to me is too modern in his view here.Finally, it seems that you are really lumping many of us all together. I also think that you are very much throwing a broad blanket over emergent. I have painstakingly step by step followed Jesus in my walk, as I am sure you have also. I am not one who takes changing things lightly. I really only read others thoughts outside the Bible to challenge my own. Along the way I have learned that even when, or rather when my faith becomes too comfortable God reveals something to me that challenges and disturbs my very core. This promotes growth in me. I think we can say there are many churches that have become so entrenched in “their view” that if one disagrees with them on anything even politics is to be labeled a heretic. I used to find comfort in knowing all the answers like the Bible answer man… yet now I find comfort in know Jesus is the answer and how in my life in faith through His grace this plays itself out. I see the Bible as a living document, which Jesus Himself is the embodiedment of. I do not think we have and anointed translations that are perfect, yet I personally hold the Bible above any other book in reverence. I am amazed as many claim to take the Bible literally, yet do not. Since I have begun this journey, I have seen that I do take it literally more and more…. Such as take care of the widows and orphans.My friend you have not hijacked this post, we have just conversed which mind you is not allowed in many churches today. I would add that if we do not look at real ways to reach this postmodern people they will be in hell…. The real thing not Brian’s version of hell.
If you want some additional understandings I recommend http://www.anewkindofconversation.com/ and downloading from http://grts.cornerstone.edu/resources/tpoints/fa05
Be blessed brother…
I have enjoyed the conversation.
Blessings,
iggy
Wednesday, November 16, 2005
Dont call me brother
Don’t call me brother….
I am not sure how to respond, or even if I should to the people who seem to think God is killing those whom in their own eyes are heretics.
I think Kyle Lake was far from a heretic.
Now, what I do see is this.
There are some whom seem to have placed themselves as the Judges of not just sinners but of fellow Christian brothers and sisters. Then they use, or rather misused scripture to back up their twisted belief system.
John in his epistles tells us
1 John 2
1. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
4. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6. Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
7. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard.
8. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
11. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
For those of you who claim to take the Bible literally, (which I find most say they do but really don’t and weirdly I seem to more that most who claim they do), notice again what John says,
“9. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
11. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
I find it sad that so many of these self-appointed watchdogs of the faith, miss this. I could name names, in fact I have in other posts, but fellow souljourners, will that bring back Kyle Lake?
First off I do not want to give the impression I knew Kyle. In fact I can’t remember hearing about him until this tragic event happened. I almost let it slide by until I came across some anti emergent people mocking his passing and claiming God was getting those emergent heretics. This left me stone cold. How can a brother be so filled with hate that they rejoice in another’s pain and sorrow? Jesus even taught to pray for our enemies, and yet, these people claiming Jesus, laugh and seem to rejoice in a brother in Christ’s passing.
Hate is not a Christian value, nor is it a Christian anything. Yes, we are called to hate evil and sin; yet, these are not people, let alone fellow believers. How do we hate evil and sin? By LOVE!!!!!!!!
We overcome evil and sin by the Power of God’s LOVE!!!!
Yes, judgment is coming and the wicked will be dealt with, yet for now we are to bring the love of Christ to the world in hope of their redemption.
I am sick of the Ingrid’s and Paul Proctors of this world who to me are hatemonger’s and stand on nothing but their own self righteousness and judgmentalism. I am sick of people like Pat Robertson who condemn entire cities in the name of Jesus, and forget He died for their sin as well as PR’s.
I admire Brian McLaren and how he can respond to his detractors in love and not react. I pray someday I too can be more like that.
Christianity Today has an article I thought interesting. It is about how Kyle Lake might explain his own death, by his own theology. Does Electrocution Happen for a Reason?
To summarize this all and tie it together I will quote the last paragraph of that article taken from Kyle’s book Understanding God's Will: How to Hack the Equation Without Formulas:
“…I would interpret Romans 8:28 as saying this: "Disappointment, failure, and suffering are simply facts of life. But for those who are actively following God, He can turn disappointment and tragedy into new life."
My prayers are with the congregation at University Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. May Kyle’s life be an example of Christ that one can cherish and carry as one grows in faith.
My prayers are also for those who preach hate, that the true Light of Christ be found and the hate in your hearts be displaced with the LOVE of Christ for God first then for your brothers… but until then, don’t call me brother. (John 18:19, John 8:42-45)
Luke 6: 35. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
36. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
38. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39. He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?
40. A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
42. How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
43. "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
44. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
45. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
46. "Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
47. I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice.
48. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
49. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."
I still have a lot to learn. Yet, I would rather be called a heretic than to spew hate from Hell and call it God’s Will.
Blessings,
iggy
I am not sure how to respond, or even if I should to the people who seem to think God is killing those whom in their own eyes are heretics.
I think Kyle Lake was far from a heretic.
Now, what I do see is this.
There are some whom seem to have placed themselves as the Judges of not just sinners but of fellow Christian brothers and sisters. Then they use, or rather misused scripture to back up their twisted belief system.
John in his epistles tells us
1 John 2
1. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
4. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
6. Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
7. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard.
8. Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
11. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
For those of you who claim to take the Bible literally, (which I find most say they do but really don’t and weirdly I seem to more that most who claim they do), notice again what John says,
“9. Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
10. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
11. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
I find it sad that so many of these self-appointed watchdogs of the faith, miss this. I could name names, in fact I have in other posts, but fellow souljourners, will that bring back Kyle Lake?
First off I do not want to give the impression I knew Kyle. In fact I can’t remember hearing about him until this tragic event happened. I almost let it slide by until I came across some anti emergent people mocking his passing and claiming God was getting those emergent heretics. This left me stone cold. How can a brother be so filled with hate that they rejoice in another’s pain and sorrow? Jesus even taught to pray for our enemies, and yet, these people claiming Jesus, laugh and seem to rejoice in a brother in Christ’s passing.
Hate is not a Christian value, nor is it a Christian anything. Yes, we are called to hate evil and sin; yet, these are not people, let alone fellow believers. How do we hate evil and sin? By LOVE!!!!!!!!
We overcome evil and sin by the Power of God’s LOVE!!!!
Yes, judgment is coming and the wicked will be dealt with, yet for now we are to bring the love of Christ to the world in hope of their redemption.
I am sick of the Ingrid’s and Paul Proctors of this world who to me are hatemonger’s and stand on nothing but their own self righteousness and judgmentalism. I am sick of people like Pat Robertson who condemn entire cities in the name of Jesus, and forget He died for their sin as well as PR’s.
I admire Brian McLaren and how he can respond to his detractors in love and not react. I pray someday I too can be more like that.
Christianity Today has an article I thought interesting. It is about how Kyle Lake might explain his own death, by his own theology. Does Electrocution Happen for a Reason?
To summarize this all and tie it together I will quote the last paragraph of that article taken from Kyle’s book Understanding God's Will: How to Hack the Equation Without Formulas:
“…I would interpret Romans 8:28 as saying this: "Disappointment, failure, and suffering are simply facts of life. But for those who are actively following God, He can turn disappointment and tragedy into new life."
My prayers are with the congregation at University Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. May Kyle’s life be an example of Christ that one can cherish and carry as one grows in faith.
My prayers are also for those who preach hate, that the true Light of Christ be found and the hate in your hearts be displaced with the LOVE of Christ for God first then for your brothers… but until then, don’t call me brother. (John 18:19, John 8:42-45)
Luke 6: 35. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
36. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
37. "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
38. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39. He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?
40. A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
42. How can you say to your brother, `Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
43. "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
44. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
45. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
46. "Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
47. I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice.
48. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
49. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."
I still have a lot to learn. Yet, I would rather be called a heretic than to spew hate from Hell and call it God’s Will.
Blessings,
iggy
Tuesday, November 15, 2005
Learning to hate one's brother in Laodicea
Learning to hate one’s brother in Laodicea
You can read Ingrid and laugh,
You can read her and cry,
You can read her and even wonder why?
Yet, mostly I read her and think,
There, but by God's grace...
go I.
Blessings,
iggy
You can read Ingrid and laugh,
You can read her and cry,
You can read her and even wonder why?
Yet, mostly I read her and think,
There, but by God's grace...
go I.
Blessings,
iggy
Happy B-Day Levi
Happy B-Day Levi!
Hope it was dynamite!
Be sure to stop by and tell him happy birthday….
Blessings,
iggy
Hope it was dynamite!
Be sure to stop by and tell him happy birthday….
Blessings,
iggy
Saturday, November 12, 2005
Napoleon Dynamite Soundboard
Napoleon Dynamite Soundboard
If you need a special dose of Napolean Dynamite.... here ya go.
Check this out also! KJ52 newest song.
blessings,
iggy
If you need a special dose of Napolean Dynamite.... here ya go.
Check this out also! KJ52 newest song.
blessings,
iggy
Return of A Continuing Conversation on TSKW
This post was an answer in response to a conversation about fundamentalism as compatible with emergent thought. It originally was posted on TSKW blog. Jason has given me a lot to chew on so I hope to respond in another post soon. Some good thoughts here I wanted to pass on.
Greetings Iggy ,
Didn't mean to seem like I had dropped off . You , sir, have posted an interesting response .
It is the case that mankind is fallen, yet , it should be stated that it is NOT the faculty of deductive logic that is tainted. Instead the emotive faculty as well as the appetites within man that is tainted. Often man allows base emotions like envy and greed --as well as the desire for crass , vulgar activities such as the excitement that results from sexual intercourse--to block out or distract ther higher emotions like charitable love for others , hope, mercy and so on .
One of the purposes that Jesus came to earth to live among us was to teach us to NOT let those lower emotions and appetites block out the good emotiions, but rather to block out that which is crass and NOT noble . That high standard is what He was appealing to at when He said in the gospels, 'Go out and find what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. '
Deductive reason helps to discourage those lower emotions, and the appetite for vulgar forms of excitement--forms of excitement without ethical or esthetic value . In that way, deductive logic (aka reason) can be a factor that either helps us to be more nurturing/more loving --or at least to block out irrational desires like greed , envy , status seeking ..that are against being nurturing/loving people .
The Spirit of God can thus be seen to edify people through deductive logic . To have loving hearts it certainly helps to have minds that are consistent--or at least continually try to be. And being consistent does often mean getting into the nitty gritty of analyzing thin distinctions --what some call "splitting hairs" .
One way of thinking that for a number of years has made me cringe--and I admire you since I've *not* seen you engage in what I'm about to describe--is the tendency for *some* people in the Fundamentalist community to try and refer to reason/logic as the "carnal mind" .
When St.Paul wrote in his epistles about the carnal mind there is NO explicit indication that Paul was in any way referring to logic/reason ;NO indication that Paul was referring to intellectualism of any kind! The truth is that when Paul writes of the 'carnal mind', or even the word 'carnal' --he mentions it in connection with the desire for sexual intercourse and or matters having to do with money ! It truly boggles how glibly some people take that phrase 'carnal mind' and try and re-define it to apply it to something that it does NOT apply to . What it doesn't apply to is reason/logic ...or intellectualism .
Some might cite the warning in Colossians where Paul seems to disparage 'philosophy' . Yet it is the view of some in the community of Bible scholars that Paul was NOT warning against formal philosophy --but instead what is called philosophy when the word "philosophy" is used in the loosest sense, and , hence, according to a scholar I read who studied the writings of Paul, Paul was warning against occult practices of astrology and other superstitious practices that were popular in some of the cities of Greece such as the city where the Colossian Christians lived . According to the scholar Paul was NOT warning against 'philosophy' in the technical, formal sense of the word such was practiced by people such as Socrates and Plato .
Of course that is an interpretation on the part of that scholar , granted and he must demonstrate such an interpretation by explicit means . However, such an interpretation is NOT that implausible when we consider that in the book of Acts , St.Paul shows a deep liking for the writings of some of the Greek philosophical poets such as Cleanthes,Aratus, and Epiminides and quotes them NOT disapprovingly, but quotes them with approval .Paul does indicate that these philosophical poets had valid insights about the same God he was proclaiming when he spoke to the Epicureans and Stoics, on Mars Hill, in the book of Acts . It is rather repugnant how people who are ready to dismiss the importance and influence of Greek philosophy on the New Testament writers --downplay that Paul quoted such philosophical poets .
In regard to Isaiah 55:8 , the statments that you have presented are of interest and *not necessarily* at odds with what I have been obligated to present--I would , nonetheless, like to emphasize for emphasis, that it is mind-boggling how some people present such an outrageously weird notion that MIS-interprets the statement how His ways are not our ways and tries to spin it, to promote the doctrine that insults God by trying to get us to believe that God supposedly pre-allows tragedy even to befall innocent people such as children and infants for some supposedly mysterious purpose---when Isaiah 55:8 does NOT explicitly support that mysterious purpose doctrine at all !
Furthermore, Isaiah 45:6-7, which I've seen twisted/falsely interpreted by people who support that weird doctrine of a mysterious- purpose- for- allowing evil-- apparently uses the Hebrew word 'ra' which is "translated" into English by being replaced by the word 'evil' --often did NOT refer to evil as in wickedness/unethical behavior . Often it simply meant an unpleasant experience--such as an unplesant that would befall great evil doers OR a destruction of some state of affairs . In Jeremiah 24:2 the Hebrew word 'ra', that is rendered into English "translations" of Isaiah 45:6-7 as the word 'evil', is apparently rendered by the word 'bad' in Jeremiah 24:2 referring to some figs in a basket that had become overripe . Thus , Isaiah 45:6-7 does NOT explicitly support that weird doctrine that would mislead us into thinking that God creates evil . Neither does Amos 3:6 --since it too apparently uses the Hebrew word 'ra' which can often signify an unpleasant experience , but not necessarily one with a wicked , unethical source .
Though I agree that God will sometimes use physical calamities to physical destroy evildoers . Not that you are at odds with what I am about to state--but let me state for emphasis that I do NOT think that God will destroy the good doers along with the evil doers--I believe that when God destroys evil doers He singles out those evil doers . The tragedy that befell many people because of hurricane Katrina and the earthquake in Pakistan --there is NO indication in the Bible nor in natural theology that those events in any way served the will of God and you are right to disapprove of the outlook those who say they did . It never ceases to amaze me how back last year in 2004 when there was the Tsunami in southeast Asia--there was one or more evangelists who claimed that the people who died in the Tsunami was somehow the will of God to punish the sinful . The question that ought to be asked is what about all the sinful pimps who run hideous child prostitution rings in Bangkok , Thailand who *weren't* drowned by the Tsunami ? Why weren't they washed out to sea ---IF that tidal wave was sent to punish sin doers ? Someone ought to ask such people who make such claims that .
As for the relativist/postmodernists, I haven't gathered that they have observed that we as humanity have had the difference between good and evil explained and yet not had the consistency to live it out and objected to that inconsistency much. Rather the relativists like and support inconsistency. They especially like and support inconsistency in thought (what they call being "conflicted") , though some of them probably don't mind inconsistency in action .
In another post, here in this present thread, I would like to re-post the text of an e-mail to the editors of the magazine: 'Christianity Today' regarding the statements made by one theologian that promote the acceptance of NON-consistent thinking under the name of so-called "paradox" and how bad that NON-consistent thinking is . I bear that theologian no ill will as a person and wish him well, however, it is quite deplorable that people pass off that NOT consistent thinking in regard to doctrine of theology as some so-called "paradox" . As you point out it is better to say "I don't know" then to use paradox as a supposed explanation .
I would argue that "acceptance of mystery", though, can be also a phrase that can be bandied about in regard to doctrinal topics with just as much of a mendacious cop- out sort of flare as the word "paradox" . I'm NOT claiming that you are doing that --since the statements you have made regarding the prospect of mystery have apparently more nuance than how many I've heard use that word 'mystery' .
Posted by: Jason Leary Oct 26, 2005 9:18:46 AM
Greetings Iggy ,
Didn't mean to seem like I had dropped off . You , sir, have posted an interesting response .
It is the case that mankind is fallen, yet , it should be stated that it is NOT the faculty of deductive logic that is tainted. Instead the emotive faculty as well as the appetites within man that is tainted. Often man allows base emotions like envy and greed --as well as the desire for crass , vulgar activities such as the excitement that results from sexual intercourse--to block out or distract ther higher emotions like charitable love for others , hope, mercy and so on .
One of the purposes that Jesus came to earth to live among us was to teach us to NOT let those lower emotions and appetites block out the good emotiions, but rather to block out that which is crass and NOT noble . That high standard is what He was appealing to at when He said in the gospels, 'Go out and find what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. '
Deductive reason helps to discourage those lower emotions, and the appetite for vulgar forms of excitement--forms of excitement without ethical or esthetic value . In that way, deductive logic (aka reason) can be a factor that either helps us to be more nurturing/more loving --or at least to block out irrational desires like greed , envy , status seeking ..that are against being nurturing/loving people .
The Spirit of God can thus be seen to edify people through deductive logic . To have loving hearts it certainly helps to have minds that are consistent--or at least continually try to be. And being consistent does often mean getting into the nitty gritty of analyzing thin distinctions --what some call "splitting hairs" .
One way of thinking that for a number of years has made me cringe--and I admire you since I've *not* seen you engage in what I'm about to describe--is the tendency for *some* people in the Fundamentalist community to try and refer to reason/logic as the "carnal mind" .
When St.Paul wrote in his epistles about the carnal mind there is NO explicit indication that Paul was in any way referring to logic/reason ;NO indication that Paul was referring to intellectualism of any kind! The truth is that when Paul writes of the 'carnal mind', or even the word 'carnal' --he mentions it in connection with the desire for sexual intercourse and or matters having to do with money ! It truly boggles how glibly some people take that phrase 'carnal mind' and try and re-define it to apply it to something that it does NOT apply to . What it doesn't apply to is reason/logic ...or intellectualism .
Some might cite the warning in Colossians where Paul seems to disparage 'philosophy' . Yet it is the view of some in the community of Bible scholars that Paul was NOT warning against formal philosophy --but instead what is called philosophy when the word "philosophy" is used in the loosest sense, and , hence, according to a scholar I read who studied the writings of Paul, Paul was warning against occult practices of astrology and other superstitious practices that were popular in some of the cities of Greece such as the city where the Colossian Christians lived . According to the scholar Paul was NOT warning against 'philosophy' in the technical, formal sense of the word such was practiced by people such as Socrates and Plato .
Of course that is an interpretation on the part of that scholar , granted and he must demonstrate such an interpretation by explicit means . However, such an interpretation is NOT that implausible when we consider that in the book of Acts , St.Paul shows a deep liking for the writings of some of the Greek philosophical poets such as Cleanthes,Aratus, and Epiminides and quotes them NOT disapprovingly, but quotes them with approval .Paul does indicate that these philosophical poets had valid insights about the same God he was proclaiming when he spoke to the Epicureans and Stoics, on Mars Hill, in the book of Acts . It is rather repugnant how people who are ready to dismiss the importance and influence of Greek philosophy on the New Testament writers --downplay that Paul quoted such philosophical poets .
In regard to Isaiah 55:8 , the statments that you have presented are of interest and *not necessarily* at odds with what I have been obligated to present--I would , nonetheless, like to emphasize for emphasis, that it is mind-boggling how some people present such an outrageously weird notion that MIS-interprets the statement how His ways are not our ways and tries to spin it, to promote the doctrine that insults God by trying to get us to believe that God supposedly pre-allows tragedy even to befall innocent people such as children and infants for some supposedly mysterious purpose---when Isaiah 55:8 does NOT explicitly support that mysterious purpose doctrine at all !
Furthermore, Isaiah 45:6-7, which I've seen twisted/falsely interpreted by people who support that weird doctrine of a mysterious- purpose- for- allowing evil-- apparently uses the Hebrew word 'ra' which is "translated" into English by being replaced by the word 'evil' --often did NOT refer to evil as in wickedness/unethical behavior . Often it simply meant an unpleasant experience--such as an unplesant that would befall great evil doers OR a destruction of some state of affairs . In Jeremiah 24:2 the Hebrew word 'ra', that is rendered into English "translations" of Isaiah 45:6-7 as the word 'evil', is apparently rendered by the word 'bad' in Jeremiah 24:2 referring to some figs in a basket that had become overripe . Thus , Isaiah 45:6-7 does NOT explicitly support that weird doctrine that would mislead us into thinking that God creates evil . Neither does Amos 3:6 --since it too apparently uses the Hebrew word 'ra' which can often signify an unpleasant experience , but not necessarily one with a wicked , unethical source .
Though I agree that God will sometimes use physical calamities to physical destroy evildoers . Not that you are at odds with what I am about to state--but let me state for emphasis that I do NOT think that God will destroy the good doers along with the evil doers--I believe that when God destroys evil doers He singles out those evil doers . The tragedy that befell many people because of hurricane Katrina and the earthquake in Pakistan --there is NO indication in the Bible nor in natural theology that those events in any way served the will of God and you are right to disapprove of the outlook those who say they did . It never ceases to amaze me how back last year in 2004 when there was the Tsunami in southeast Asia--there was one or more evangelists who claimed that the people who died in the Tsunami was somehow the will of God to punish the sinful . The question that ought to be asked is what about all the sinful pimps who run hideous child prostitution rings in Bangkok , Thailand who *weren't* drowned by the Tsunami ? Why weren't they washed out to sea ---IF that tidal wave was sent to punish sin doers ? Someone ought to ask such people who make such claims that .
As for the relativist/postmodernists, I haven't gathered that they have observed that we as humanity have had the difference between good and evil explained and yet not had the consistency to live it out and objected to that inconsistency much. Rather the relativists like and support inconsistency. They especially like and support inconsistency in thought (what they call being "conflicted") , though some of them probably don't mind inconsistency in action .
In another post, here in this present thread, I would like to re-post the text of an e-mail to the editors of the magazine: 'Christianity Today' regarding the statements made by one theologian that promote the acceptance of NON-consistent thinking under the name of so-called "paradox" and how bad that NON-consistent thinking is . I bear that theologian no ill will as a person and wish him well, however, it is quite deplorable that people pass off that NOT consistent thinking in regard to doctrine of theology as some so-called "paradox" . As you point out it is better to say "I don't know" then to use paradox as a supposed explanation .
I would argue that "acceptance of mystery", though, can be also a phrase that can be bandied about in regard to doctrinal topics with just as much of a mendacious cop- out sort of flare as the word "paradox" . I'm NOT claiming that you are doing that --since the statements you have made regarding the prospect of mystery have apparently more nuance than how many I've heard use that word 'mystery' .
Posted by: Jason Leary Oct 26, 2005 9:18:46 AM
Friday, November 11, 2005
Mmmm, That's Good Coffee...
Rick, one of my favorite blogs has moved to typepad... I would also yet I really can't afford somthing more than FREE.He has a great blog, and the latest post Geography Lesson is very insighful...Enjoy.
Blessings,
iggy
Tuesday, November 08, 2005
Ohhhh the Giggles!
When ever I need a pick me up I watch this...
It is Fischer at about 9 months old. His little personality comes out so great in this little clip.
Hope it blesses you,
iggy
It is Fischer at about 9 months old. His little personality comes out so great in this little clip.
Hope it blesses you,
iggy
Saturday, November 05, 2005
I have "needs"
I have “needs”
Check this out… type in (your name) and add needs in Google and see what your needs are. Here are some of mine… apparently.
Iggy needs the support of Hispanic businesses
Iggy needs to let go, be unleashed
Iggy needs artistic Viagara
Iggy needs a new top.
Iggy needs to hone that jump shot.
Iggy needs more than a tribute disc is another Trainspotting soundtrack.
Iggy's needs to take 2 big steps back and decide what they want to be and stick with it.
iggy needs to learn to pass
Iggy needs to read Teen Girl Squad
Iggy needs a links page.
Iggy needs some young guys around him. He’s old.
Iggy needs a ciggy.
Iggy needs to abandon D'Arcy's Pint and go somewhere in town that serves 'real'horseshoes!!
Iggy needs to not post porn on his site!
Iggy needs your help.
Iggy, of course, needs no introduction.
Iggy needs to be in Iraq, in uniform, on night patrol, in downtown Bagdad.
Iggy Need A New Home
Blessings,
iggy
Check this out… type in (your name) and add needs in Google and see what your needs are. Here are some of mine… apparently.
Iggy needs the support of Hispanic businesses
Iggy needs to let go, be unleashed
Iggy needs artistic Viagara
Iggy needs a new top.
Iggy needs to hone that jump shot.
Iggy needs more than a tribute disc is another Trainspotting soundtrack.
Iggy's needs to take 2 big steps back and decide what they want to be and stick with it.
iggy needs to learn to pass
Iggy needs to read Teen Girl Squad
Iggy needs a links page.
Iggy needs some young guys around him. He’s old.
Iggy needs a ciggy.
Iggy needs to abandon D'Arcy's Pint and go somewhere in town that serves 'real'horseshoes!!
Iggy needs to not post porn on his site!
Iggy needs your help.
Iggy, of course, needs no introduction.
Iggy needs to be in Iraq, in uniform, on night patrol, in downtown Bagdad.
Iggy Need A New Home
Blessings,
iggy
Thursday, November 03, 2005
If the Law is the Law
Sometimes I get emails that make me laugh and cry at the same time…
For the most part I agree with this message.
Blessings,
iggy
IF THE LAW IS THE LAW
So if the US government determines that it is against the law for the words "under God" to be on our money, then, so be it. And if that same government decides that the "Ten Commandments" are not to be used in or on a government installation, then, so be it. And since they already have prohibited any prayer in the schools, on which they deem their authority, then so be it. I say, "so be it," because I would like to be a law abiding US citizen. I say, "so be it," because I would like to think that smarter people than I are in positions to make good decisions. I would like to think that those people have the American Publics' best interests at heart. BUT, YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE I'D LIKE? Since we can't pray to God, can't Trust in God and cannot Post His Commandments in Government buildings, I don't believe the Government and it's employees should participate in the Easter and Christmas celebrations which honor the God that our government is eliminating from many facets of American life. I'd like my mail delivered on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter. After all, it's just another day. I'd like the US Supreme Court to be in session on Christmas, Good Friday, Thanksgiving & Easter as well as Sundays. After all, it's just another day. I'd like the Senate and the House of Representatives to not have to worry about getting home for the "Christmas Break." After all it's just another day. I'm thinking that a lot of my taxpayer dollars could be saved, if all government offices & services would work on Christmas, Good Friday & Easter. It shouldn't cost any overtime since those would be just like any other day of the week to a government that is trying to be "politically correct."In fact.... I think that our government should work on Sundays (initially set aside for worshipping God...) because, after all, our government says that it should be just another day.... What do you all think???? If this idea gets to enough people, maybe our elected officials will stop giving in to the minority opinions and begin, once again, to represent the 'majority' of ALL of the American people. SO BE IT...........
Author unknown
Wednesday, November 02, 2005
7 Layers to get to Emergent?
I love Brian McLaren and though I personally think the bridge building days are past, I understand what he is attempting here.
Personally, I see we often spend too much time on things that really do not matter. I agree that these things Brian points out do not make one a PM/e church body. Yet, I am confronted with the thought why are we still looking behind us? We are the new visionaries... whether the modern church accepts this or not. We are the Spirit driven church... not the fad/program driven church.We see our purpose and really never needed a book to tell us what it was... for our purpose is to be available for God to work out our salvation with fear and trembling as He does His Will and Good Purpose though us.
I have had a couple or great teachers in my life. One was Bob George, and the other was Major Ian Thomas. Both these men taught of God's grace as none others I have heard. With these men I found the way out of the shame/performance belief system that plagues so many Christians and keeps them from experiencing God's Sabbath rest for them. So many people of faith actually lack faith as they depend on works.
I see a new generation of believers who desire a deep and richer relationship from God through Jesus. They desire THE REAL.
Authenticity and honesty should be at least on the top of our lists as Christians... yet when I look around I see trappings and window dressing that is supposed to substitute a real relationship with God through His people. This is subtle. This is Satanic and cuts across the very heart of the Kingdom of God. It brings us to the temple to worship, yet we bow before Baal and Dagon.
The Hebrews would complain, no they would bitch... to quote Hal Lindsey in a sermon I heard years ago... He said that was the more accurate word for it. They bitched and moaned and wanted to go back to Egypt... not the real one, the one of their fantasy..."all the meat and bread we could eat." What has happened, I believe is we have without realizing it, reduced Christianity back to the sacrificial system... except now we do things like tithe.
Many do not realize that we already had the forgiveness issue taken care of before Jesus arrived. We had the sacrificial system. Sacrifice an animal in our place and we are forgiven.
So, what did Jesus truly accomplish? Redemption and a sacrifice once for all!
He was the atoning sacrifice that ended the sacrificial system by His works! That is why we no longer need to depend on our own works. It is through His Obedience not ours that we are now, obedient children. (Romans 5:19) That is why Paul says it is obedience that comes by faith, as we respond n faith we abide/walk/Live in Christ"s obedience to death on a Cross. For now Christ, as in the beginning is literally our Life and Light.
We as emergent's need to stop looking back at Egypt. We need to follow Jesus. It is interesting that we are content with looking at the shadow when we can turn and see the Reality that Is Christ Jesus.
Brian talks a lot about this bridge, the bridge to nowhere. I think it is a great example of where we are and must be as emergent people of Christ. It was once the main road over the river,which now one must swim or raft to get to the other side. This bridge is now just a tourist attraction. Really it is of no value, yet people come and see it as an oddity.
This to me is the modern church. It's structure stands, yet without any real use. People come and gawk at it as an oddity, but see that to them really will not get them across the water.
Now, we can sit and have pride about how well that bridge was built and how it stood the test of the weather, and not notice it goes nowhere and is of no use.
We need to be visionaries and build a new bridge; One that gets us to where we need to go. We need to realize no matter what we do the old bridge is gone, and the new one is here. We need to stop putting new wine in the old wine skins and get new wine skins. We need to let Jesus build the New Bridge that will stand and be more than an oddity, but a living organism.
Blessings,
iggy
Personally, I see we often spend too much time on things that really do not matter. I agree that these things Brian points out do not make one a PM/e church body. Yet, I am confronted with the thought why are we still looking behind us? We are the new visionaries... whether the modern church accepts this or not. We are the Spirit driven church... not the fad/program driven church.We see our purpose and really never needed a book to tell us what it was... for our purpose is to be available for God to work out our salvation with fear and trembling as He does His Will and Good Purpose though us.
I have had a couple or great teachers in my life. One was Bob George, and the other was Major Ian Thomas. Both these men taught of God's grace as none others I have heard. With these men I found the way out of the shame/performance belief system that plagues so many Christians and keeps them from experiencing God's Sabbath rest for them. So many people of faith actually lack faith as they depend on works.
I see a new generation of believers who desire a deep and richer relationship from God through Jesus. They desire THE REAL.
Authenticity and honesty should be at least on the top of our lists as Christians... yet when I look around I see trappings and window dressing that is supposed to substitute a real relationship with God through His people. This is subtle. This is Satanic and cuts across the very heart of the Kingdom of God. It brings us to the temple to worship, yet we bow before Baal and Dagon.
The Hebrews would complain, no they would bitch... to quote Hal Lindsey in a sermon I heard years ago... He said that was the more accurate word for it. They bitched and moaned and wanted to go back to Egypt... not the real one, the one of their fantasy..."all the meat and bread we could eat." What has happened, I believe is we have without realizing it, reduced Christianity back to the sacrificial system... except now we do things like tithe.
Many do not realize that we already had the forgiveness issue taken care of before Jesus arrived. We had the sacrificial system. Sacrifice an animal in our place and we are forgiven.
So, what did Jesus truly accomplish? Redemption and a sacrifice once for all!
He was the atoning sacrifice that ended the sacrificial system by His works! That is why we no longer need to depend on our own works. It is through His Obedience not ours that we are now, obedient children. (Romans 5:19) That is why Paul says it is obedience that comes by faith, as we respond n faith we abide/walk/Live in Christ"s obedience to death on a Cross. For now Christ, as in the beginning is literally our Life and Light.
We as emergent's need to stop looking back at Egypt. We need to follow Jesus. It is interesting that we are content with looking at the shadow when we can turn and see the Reality that Is Christ Jesus.
Brian talks a lot about this bridge, the bridge to nowhere. I think it is a great example of where we are and must be as emergent people of Christ. It was once the main road over the river,which now one must swim or raft to get to the other side. This bridge is now just a tourist attraction. Really it is of no value, yet people come and see it as an oddity.
This to me is the modern church. It's structure stands, yet without any real use. People come and gawk at it as an oddity, but see that to them really will not get them across the water.
Now, we can sit and have pride about how well that bridge was built and how it stood the test of the weather, and not notice it goes nowhere and is of no use.
We need to be visionaries and build a new bridge; One that gets us to where we need to go. We need to realize no matter what we do the old bridge is gone, and the new one is here. We need to stop putting new wine in the old wine skins and get new wine skins. We need to let Jesus build the New Bridge that will stand and be more than an oddity, but a living organism.
Blessings,
iggy
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