Some of you may have check out the link to the teachings of Irenaeus I have on this page.
My theology took on a grand transition after reading His teachings. I see as Irenaeus who was a disciple of the Polycarp and the Apostle John taught one must subject his free will unto God. I see this as the exchange of wills from ours to Gods. This is the exchanged life or as scripture calls it, becoming a new creation.
I see a common saying as a bit unscriptural... yet as I am not a legalist (at least I pray ha-ha) I don’t make too much out of it. We often hear the phrase, "I gave my life to the Lord", when in reality we had no life.... as all that dwelt in us before Christ was death. We should say, "I gave my death to the Lord, and He gave me His eternal life." In fact Christ Jesus gave Himself for He is Life itself.
I see the real issue in Christianity today is the equation of forgiveness = salvation. When in the scripture all are forgiven, yet it does not say all are saved. When Jesus yelled, "Father, forgive them they know not what they do". I see all at the cross forgiven; yet I would never say all present at the cross were saved.
What this leads to is many receiving only half the Gospel that leads to Life.
Many go forward, not to receive Christ Jesus, but to receive forgiveness. This forgiveness is already granted by way of the cross. The only way of salvation is Jesus for He is salvation.
I see many people being deceived that they are saved, when in reality they only have acknowledged that God forgave them and have not received the power unto salvation, or the Life of Christ.
Now some may call this the indwelling of the Holy Spirit... and I agree... for without the Holy Spirit indwelling us we do not have the power to be saved. This power can only come from God Who is our only salvation, and our hope of glory.
Blessings,
iggy
Friday, July 15, 2005
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Iggy, i have something to say about this....read it in love pls, for i really wrote out of love. i am not seeking anything for myself. i am not trying to put anyone down to elevate myself. yet, i feel i have become a fool in writing this to justify myself.
when one put faith into believing that he is forgiven, hasnt God see that faith and credited to him as righteousness?
Abraham was justified by faith alone.
anyway brother, when one believes in Jesus being Saviour and Lord and called upon His name, didnt God promise that He shall be saved?
in His blood is forgiveness and His blood brings us close to God. doesnt that brings justification as well, since God is everything (all in all)?
in His love,
Elson
Yeah - I'm of the opinion that forgiveness is a given - God's attitude is one of shattering forgiveness - we live forgiven, even before we ask for that forgiveness from God.
Salvation is something to be worked out in our day to day life - something that isn't once for all or once in a lifetime.
Blessings & Peace,
Hugo
brother Hugo,
are u speaking of the manifestation of salvation? if truly that Jesus died for us on the cross, doesnt He will freely give us all things that cost less than His life? i believe that no matter we know or not, we have everything that Jesus has, for we are joint-heir, brought to His throne by His blood. it is only when we renewed our mind, then only the manifestation may take place. i am not saying manifestation will ONLY take place when we realise. i am saying realising what we have will definitely bring about edification and soteria........
in His love,
Elson
Son of El:
(I like the screen name, BTW!)
I'm Catholic . . . what's this "manifestation" you speak of? ;-)
Seriously, though, we usually don't go in for talking about "manifestations" of salvation, if by that you mean examining a person's life to try and see if they are saved. Catholics tend to look at people as always being in the proceess of working towards salvation, not "getting saved" and then living virtuos lives. All people sin, Christian or not, devout/faithful or not - so we don't look to a once and for all declaration of salvation.
Forgiveness, like I wrote, we are pretty sure of - God forgives always and everwhere and everywhen and everything, as long as we ask and receive. but salvation is a tenuous subject, not so clearly grasped while here on earth, and only hoped for and worked for; we are given the final clear picture of our salvation once we pass beyond this mortal coil and stand in God's presence.
Blessings & Peace,
Hugo
heehee, Hugo, i agree about that fullness of truth will come when we see God Father face to face......manifestation i am talking about the physical realm....... like according to the scriptures, the truth is: we are already healed by His stripes.
yet at times, the fact is that we do fall sick. however, the physical manifestation takes place as we continue to rest in Him. this i talk about manifestation....
i dun care Catholics or not...i am not putting anyone low....i am saying all i know is that all who believe in Jesus Christ are one. to me, there is no division in churches, in people. all who believe are one.
The problem of the Forgiveness = Salvation equation is two fold.
1. It leads to universalism.... meaning all are forgiven thus all are saved.
2. It gives a false sense that the fullness is done as far as salvation...
I am sure we agree that not all are saved at the cross. The potential to be saved is there, the offer the way... are all present at the cross.But all must be obtained through Jesus Himself.
The issue is that if someone goes forward and receives "forgiveness" with the assumption they do believe in God, they may not be saved. For they did nto receive Christ Jesus. The Cross is only as good as the Savior Who was hung on it.
Case to look at is Paul, or rather Saul, who had a zeal for God.
Yes, he was forgiven at the cross. Yes, he believed in God and even loved God.
Yet, not until he met the Risen Christ in a personal way did he become saved.
Many go forward to receive forgiveness, not realizing it is already there and theirs.
Many do not receive Christ…. They receive Jesus as “a way” to forgiveness, but not “The Way” to salvation.
I realize this is a slim difference, yet the deception to me is that… slim enough to rise up
people, who think they are saved, and live a religious life, yet do not have a saving knowledge of Christ Jesus.They are still lost and the Devil is happy.
Sonofel, you know scripture very well, I admire you zeal and love for truth and Christ.
I challenge you to look into this deeper. To test it against scripture.
Look at the Pharisees.
Look at the Judiazers.
Look at those around you who act as both of those…. Today at our churches, judging and hating their brothers in Christ, yet claim to love God also… See what John says in 1,2 and 3 John about those who hate their brothers.
We need to pray for these. As to serve God, and to lose reward out of trusting in works (and not realizing it) only to face God either to be told, “I never knew you”, or to just be as one passing through the fire… with nothing to his name because he did not let Jesus do His works through him…. He did not work out his salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2: 12. Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13. for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
For they do “their” works, when it is to be God who works in us to will and act according to His good purpose.
Blessings,
iggy
brothers, God bless this conversation. truly, i have learnt......
if anyone is to be judged guilty of judging and hating their brothers in Christ, i shall be one.
yet, God still pours out His love into my heart with the Holy Spirit. He comforted me, and said, "My grace is sufficient." i recovered and thank Him. He transforms me. i forgave that brother because God forgives me first.
bro, i dun deny that such things of judging and hating bros do not exist. i am guilty, yet Jesus' grace let my conscience condemns me not for that issue. the Lord justifies me as He said that sin is taken unto Himself on the cross.
Bro, be not sad. for you know that it is God that changes and let Paul know the truth. the same Holy Spirit will do that to those whom God loves.
bro, i am just saying, the Lord is good and no one can stop His divine will. :) isnt that a comfort? by the way, my good brother, are u well? have u recovered? may Jesus' grace abounds in u.
with love,
Elson
i read ur post about falling. lol, coincidentally i have done a posting on falling by God's grace.
http://sonofel.blogspot.com/2005/07/father-why-do-you-allow-us-to-fall-his.html
bro, be blessed!
sonof El,
It is hard to talk about brothers possibly not being saved without feeling and knowing that none of us really should have been saved. God is so gracious isn't He. I know even my limited knowledge that God's grace in the believer and even the none reaches farther than I could imagine.
God's grace is all around us. It holds all things together. For if God willed he could say "No More" and all would be gone! Yet, that is not the nature of our God who loves us so much, even beyond our comprehension.
Blessings,
iggy
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