Monday, March 20, 2006

The Law is abolished...Right?

The Law is abolished…. Right?

There seems to be two scriptures that contradict each other on the “abolishing” of the Law.

Jesus says in Matthew 5: 17. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Paul seems to say the opposite in Ephesians 2:10. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
11. Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)-- 12. remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15. by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16. and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
17. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20. built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
21. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22.And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

So how can both be true?

Jesus spoke to the Jews concerning the Law in a way that buried them… “Be perfect as you Father in Heaven is Perfect.” Of course the disciples asked as we should, “Who can be saved?” Jesus replied, “With God all things are possible.”

Jesus’ statement is about the expectation of the Messiah to come and establish His power here on earth…. Which He did, but not the way they expected. He came to fulfill the Law. In His work on the Cross and through His resurrection He did this… In Hebrews we are told, He “5: 8. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9. and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10. and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

What Jesus did was remove the earthly sacrificial system and replaced it with the Kingdom of God.

This was unexpected for the Jewish leaders of the day.

In this Jesus did abolish the Law as Paul states in Ephesians. We either can walk in faith in the Law…(Torah, and the prophets) or walk in Faith in Christ Jesus. And that is the issue…. Do we walk in our own righteousness or His?

Now the issue of homosexuality to me is about one’s identity. Is one a gay or lesbian or transgender, or a child of G-d? If one has the identity of a child of God, then one should seek out how and what a child of God is about and to properly respond to our Father through our Lord Jesus. We need to understand grace is for all and that is how we are saved… not of our own doing. We need to think though that God is saving us FROM sin and death into HIS LIFE, which is ETERNAL. How can sin continue to dwell in Christ’s very own life imputed to us? The mistake is thinking that my life is still mine as a believer… so one cannot be gay or lesbian as a Christian, as that would lead to a double-minded half-life in Christ. I am not saying one might not struggle with this as a sin that is in ones life as a Child of Christ, but rather that the focus is not to be on our sin, but on the Life of Jesus as He lives it through us.

My motto is this: He who gave His life for me, gave His life to me, to live His life through me.

The bottom line is Jesus transcends the sexual issue… even to say in the Gospels that there is not going to be the marriage of man and woman in heaven, but rather, the marriage of the Bridegroom (Jesus) and the Bride (His Church).



Debbie said...

Very interesting post
I like the motto
"He who gave His life for me, gave His life to me, to live His life through me."

Elson - son of El (El means God in hebrew) said...

so true brother, recently i was reading matt 5 and was wondering what Jesus mean by the law thinggy.

then i understood what He is saying and then i visitied your blog and again, He confirmed it....

well well, God is good!


Phil Perkins said...

Can you explain further your objection to "hierarchical" church? For instance, how does this effect your desire to be a pastor and be a leader? Does God make an exception for your particular type of leadership? Does that extend to other pastors? As a layman, how do I follow you if hierarchical is bad?
Since you do not believe in hierchy why did you get ordained? What did you have to do to get ordained in the UCMI anyway?

Phil Perkins

Phil Perkins said...

Hi Iggy.
Phil again. Had to go to church. So I did not put these two questions out for you.
First, I was really happy to see what your doctrinal statement says about Scripture, it being inerrant and our sole authority.
However, most Emergent leaders disagree with you. Dan Kimball recently wrote a velvet diatribe about stupid folks that take the Bible literally and use it to find definite answers. Brian McLaren (the reigning heavywieght champion of Emergent Obfuscation) denies SOLA SCRIPTURA, saying we need other authorities.
QUESTION: Where do you stand on the Scriptures? With the Emergent or with your doctrinal statement?
Second, you mention homosexuality only in passing. Initially you say that you see it as part of one's identity and is incongruous with an identity as a child of God and that it seems bad to you. This seems odd. Shouldn't we be concerned with whether or not it is good or bad to God? Then you end up with saying that "Jesus transcends the sexual issue" because there will be no physical marriage in heaven. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? In heaven there will be no need for teachers either. So does He transcend truth, too? Or is He its author and very concerned with it? Jesus created us as sexual beings and has written in Scripture much about sexual purity, including the sin of sodomy.
QUESTION: Do you fall in line behind Brian McLaren who hasn't decided if sodomy is sin or not?
Finally, after googling United Christian Ministeries International (the folks that ordained you) I have just one BURNING QUESTION. Did you get the $15, $20, or $25 ordination document? And did you send a mail order or use a credit card?

iggy said...

Once atgain, If you really look into UCMI they are as legit as any other organization. They even have an accredited school.

The issue to me is that you seem to have some personal issue with me and do not even know me. You seem to lack even the basic understanding of what I am writing about. I coule care less if you impune me, but to impune UCMI shows a rela lack of your understanding. Many churches (traditional) ordain with in their local body, without even sending the person to school.

And no I never recieved a document. I do have a card that calls me Rev. and I use it for weddings, funerals, and hopistal visits. Remember the Bible teaches that we are called. I do nto need a "Man made ordnation" for I have a calling from God. You might also realize that I did this before i began my journey into the relational model over the heirarchial.

If you actualy take the time to read what I write, I acknowlegde there is and has to be some heirarchial, but the issue is that it is base on "power of position", God has been showing me the "power of relationship". We are not lovers of Jesus because of His power, but becuase of His Love and relationship with us. If all we are is into His Power and position, we are no better off then the demons, for they believe and fear His position of power. Yet, the Bible teaches we need not fear, as we are not creature of wrath, but of God's redeeming Love.

Now, I seriously do not see that you have any real interest in dialog, and as I said to you before on soapbox, you have reminded me of why I left the model you seem to desire all to fall under. Your come across as one who seems insulting someone is a way of conversation.

BTW, we will not need teachers in heaven because we will know and be know by Truth Himself....

I fall in line with Jesus who ate with sinners and died for us even while we were still enemies lost in our sin.

I see that you do not stand on tuth, you only stand on your perception of truth...

the last question you asked intrigues me... have you gone to college and how did you pay? Did you use a check or credit card? You assupmtion is way off base.

good day,

Phil Perkins said...

Well here's the deal on hierarchy. First of all, as previously stated, all groups have hierarchy--formal or informal. It is neither good nor bad. Second, Paul TOLD Timothy that he was to appoint overseers in churches previously established. That is oversight-based hierarchy. That is the biblical model--loving oversight, pulls rank when needed as Paul often did. Read his letters. In every one he TELLS folks what to do and what to believe. Call it power or call it relationship.
On the ordaination issue, what you have done is REALLY DISHONEST and I will make sure that all in Billings churches everywhere will know that you have lied about your credentials unless you repent. You know that the term "ordaination" means something quite different than being a card in the minds of most people. Claiming a man-made ordaination is what you have done and you know it.
On the Emergent movement, you will have to choose whether you are Emergent or Christian. No Christ-follower will approve of homosexuality or approve of those that do. And you have by recommending Emergent stuff and Brian McLaren. If you were not aware of what they really are, then you are aware now.

Get Honest, Please.
Phil. P. S. I teach Greek and Hebrew at YBC.

iggy said...

you see to wear you religion on your sleeve. I thank you for reminding me what I have left behind as I follow Christ. Your accusations an judgementalism is the core of your belief system. Being educated beyond your intelligence does not make one's calling of God either....

I pray that the True Spirit of Christ gives you rest from religion.

iggy said...

How have I lied about my credentials? I have placed the UCMI on my websites... I have hid nothing and have nothing to hide.

You need to realize you are the one hiding behind the facade of religion. My calling is of God first, and then I have placed myself in an organization that required me to send in my beliefs in writing. I have studied out what you read on my website for the new fellowship I hope to develop. You accusations are really off base.
In fact since you have given me no way to contact you to talk, you are the coward who hides. I am open to real critics, not false accusations. You have only come across and judgemental, arogant, and unloving. I see none of these as a sign of a true believer.

If you really want to dialog we can, feel free to contact me by email. Again, I a will pass on your concerns to my legitimacy of my credentials.... but the real question is this...

What makes one credentials credible in the Kingdom of God?

Again, I am in prayer for you and hope to move this into a more pleasant conversation.


Anonymous said...


The Torah is not dead, its still in place, but with that said we all fall short of the Torah. That is where Jesus the Messiah comes into play. He live the law, and died because he did so. That was G-d plan (Isaiah 53). We can never live up to the Torah. By faith we are saved and bound in his blood, by living by the law we show our faith. Faith and works go hand and hand.(James 2:26) We must repent and ask for forgiviness thought the Messiah's Blood.

G-d Bless your Jewish Buddy,

iggy said...

Rob! Welcome Buddy!

hey, Paul teaches that the law is still working... It is working on those who are still depending on their own righteousness to be saved. It is a mirror which as we know mirrors can show you you are dirty, but they can't clean you. that is the Torah's prupose. The other purposes as stated by Jesus is that all scripture is to lead us to find Jesus. He is the fulfillment of the Law. I am not saying we can't learn from the the Law, yet that is not where our righteousness comes. I think we agree that is Jesus and only His righteousness that can save us. We abide in CHrist.

In Acts (chapter 11)you can read about those troubling gentiles. We began having the same Holy Spirit fall on us and the Apostles decided to give us just a few things to follow. In chapter 15 the Apostles list these:
19. "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
20. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21. For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

So our load is very light as gentile believers. These were the core of the teaching given in the Epistles.

So, I do agree the Law is not gone completely, yet. But instead it is written no longer on stone but on the believer's heart.


Anonymous said...

Every true indeed. The Torah is not what saves us. The grace of G-d is. Many Blessings.

G-d Bless,