Saturday, July 24, 2004

Authority or Relationship pt 2


In the last few months I have been really venturing out into new territory for me.
I have always put authority and then relationship with Christ in that order. But lately I have been seeing more and more that there seems to be a split or a difference in the two on how one approaches God.
I do give this disclaimer…none of this is set in stone…. though solidifying.
My friend Levi
http://www.blogger.com/profile/2947372 who I have come to really enjoy our exchanges of ideas in the last few months has kind of put me on the spot…. that is cool. This forces me to be more diligent in developing this Authority vs. Relationship thought I have begun.

In his Blog he brought up Ephesians 5: 21 which I wrote about in my last Blog. The verse is “21. Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.”

I believe as I said before this is core to the understanding of the relational aspect of Christ. But let’s back this whole chapter up a bit. At Verse 1,2 and 3.

1. Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children
2. and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
3. But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.


Be imitators of God…..as dearly loved children. Right off the bat Paul teaches this whole chapter will be about relationship. That we are to relate to God as His children.
My first child is six months old…I never thought at such a young age I would be such an influence on him…but even at this young age he will try to imitate me…one of the games we play is Incredible Hulk…. I take on the Hulk stances and go GRRRRRRR! Fischer laughs and squeals and in his own way goes grrrrr! It is more like gwierewber! But like any parent, we hear what we want to. Hahahahahaha.

My point is God wants us to be like Him…. not as the Serpent claimed, (bing equal with God) but in a loving relationship that gives us humans a model to grow into.

What is God’s character? Exodus 34:5-8

5. Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD.
6. And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
7. maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."
8. Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped.


These words stand out…. compassionate, slow to anger, abounding in love, and faithful, maintaining love to the thousands and forgiving...sin.
This is the Father character of God…but then we have the authority side.

But He does not leave the guilty unpunished…even to the point were because the wickedness which can go on for generations. God will give them all the authority they desire and sadly deserve.

Now here is the kicker…. I would venture to say this…. Moses had a relationship with the living God…Moses would argue and debate and challenge…. knowing full well who God was and is. Yet, He was allowed to do these things. Why? God loved him and he loved God.
Now here I will venture a bit out on a limb…this in a way goes contrary to all teachings I have been under…
Deut 11:22-23
I have read this but have not connected this verse in my mind to relationship with God.

22. If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow--to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways and to hold fast to him--
23. then the LORD will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you.


God tells the Hebrews to “love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways and to hold fast to him”
Love the LORD your God. Pretty simple command here…. but then He says this.


26. See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse--
27. the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; 28. the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.

The Blessings have always been connected to the ordinances of God…. but in the context we have the blessings connected to “love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways and to hold fast to him”.

But the curse comes if they disobeyed God “commands”.
First I see here the pattern of relationship vs. authority.
If they love God and have a relationship based on this love…. God is pleased and blessings will flow. NOT BASED ON JUST OBEDIENCE! BUT ON LOVE.

The Authority and curses kick in when there is no fellowship.
So God says, I am setting before you blessings and a curse.
Relationship or authority.

Back to Ephesians 5. A superficial reading would give one the impression Paul is then teaching “do’s and don’ts”, but in fact he is laying out that as a believers character is developed and one becomes more like our Father…the sinful things of the world become nothing in light of our relationship and become out of character with who we are and are becoming. This is much richer that having a list of don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t chew tobacco or date girls who do also.
Paul simply contrasts that we are to be like our Father… compassionate, slow to anger, abounding in love, and faithful, maintaining love to the thousands and forgiving...sin.

Blessed,
iggy



3 comments:

Unknown said...

John,
Thank you for your comments, yet I think yo missed the essence what I wrote.
First. God is a triune being and is whole...He wants us to be a whole being.
Second. Jesus said I and the Father are One...
and then said we are One in Him. This means the Word who was the very nature and representation of the Father speaking only what the Father says, telling us to relate to God as a whole being...If we just relate to "Jesus" we miss out on all who God is.
I see God who spoke to Moses, related to the Hebrews on the level "they" wanted...not what God wanted.
He desired them to related how He wanted....thus He later sent Jesus.
Again, thankw for your comments. I do reccomend you
re-read my post and think not on terms of a modern Authority mindset, but in a relational mindset.
Blessed,
iggy

Unknown said...

John,
I think you have made some assumptions about me and my beliefs that have you making some very basic misunderstandings about my post. I am not defending it as you contend...I asked you to re read it in the mindset I wrote it.
1. I believe Jesus is the Living Word of God...
I believe though, you miss that the trinity is relational and each person in it relates in a different way...I see as God is relational...we His creation are also.
2. I never set myself up nor said I was a Biblical scholar...you said that...for some reason...
3. Your tone is very condesending and though I appreciate your comments, I have read and re read both of you comments and even wonder if you read my post...or understood it.
4. These are deveoping thoughts, John, in embrionic state. I have much more to develop here...
5. I think part of the issue is you make an assumption I am just starting in Ephesians 5...nope I really started in Genesis and have gone thruogh the whole Bible...to see Jesus is present on every page....you see, this though is really about that...Jesus. Who is what the scripture is all about.
6.john, A crituque is very different from what you gave me...you have gone into debate. I am willing to do this.But, still if we are to dialoge you need to let me know who you are....It is like you have jumped out of my closet...shook your fist and then disappeared back into the shadows...
I am not convince you really caught the nuances of what I wrote...as I said you seemed to have made some wrong assumptions of me and who I am and responded to the post without really getting it...this is not a cop but legit. If I see that you do not understand,or feel you have misrepresented me or what ever...then I have the right to respond and say we are not truly comunicating.
Agian I read you comments...and saw it condesending and very much guilty of the accusations leveled toward me.
John I am not angry but confused...as to how you came to your conclusions...not about the blog...but about me.
again thanks for the comments.
Blessed,
iggy

levi fuson said...

john

i would have to agree with iggy, you seem to be retortign in a very condsending way. your arguemants are valid but seem to be circular. confusing. i would say that as a person seeks to know christ you cannot invalidate those conclusions he comes too. for it is in the process that we are to be like christ.

for you, your process and conclusions may be different than iggy's. i find your post to be ...... offensive. i u nderstand that you have your way of thinking, but you will never convince anyone of your arguements when disertated with an air of "I'm Right, your Wrong"

levi